Shas'o R'Vre Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 It was mostly in chats with other BL/GW folks, and at one point there was a photocopy from one of the previous edition codices as reference on the table. I can't remember for the life of me which one it was, but it definitely wasn't the current one. As I recall, it was literally no more than a throwaway remark - I never got the idea that it applied as a blanket statement to all Possessed. (Well, like any of them could really be the same? Every soul and daemon will be different and have its own relationship, I guess... But whatever.) If I track it down I'll let you know, dude. Ah interesting, and thanks for the insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 abadon and BL do stuff like that. most other legion possessed just burn down they bodies and die rather quick . the BL through their packts with all chaos gods [and abby being an uber head honcho of all that is chaos] somehow managed to get a symbiosis between the demon and human part . there are referances to something like that outside of BL[like the half demon leader of slanesh armies from "deamon world"] , but it is rather rare. Sorcerers have a good flexable build that can open up some options to the force. There well costed, with a statline almost identical to a SM captain. which no codex uses , because they are not as good as specials[bA/SM/DA] , chaplains[bA] or libbies[bA/SM]. yes SW use their "cpt" but they have tons of options to upgrade them . But as am getting offtopic. You are not going to tell me that a chaos sorc gives enough boost to an army , as a RP or a Libby in a codex/sm/SW army. I wont agree that a sorc "has times when he is better" . he is never better . A DP at his worse , gives at least an extra target[well two actualy] . a sorc eats up a special in a rhino squads or forces you to run a LR[so an uber unit with a crapy HQ] or run something sub par[like a biker sorc with bike bodyguard]. As of local meta game . yeah it may work in a playgroup of 10 people or to make it simple small groups. but then its a clear way to tailoring a list against an opponent. How long will a tau player want to play , if the sm guy always pops drop pods on him [and against him only] or when the nid player is given the pleasure to play against 2+ SW RP [and yes I find 4 in a normal list crapy too]? From a game where you check your gaming skills it turns in to who can buy more models faster and change armies faster then others[because when you switch fast and a lot they cant meta against you and I realy doubt people run around with 8-9k of models with them each time they go to a shop or club]. A single, or even a pair of, DPs is just going to get rapid fired to death or hit with a heavy weapon team until he cries. Using a rhino wall to cover him? Woo-hoo, his 5++ became a 4++, nothing I cant handle. well not everyone has LF that can counter both rhinos and DPs in the same turn . yeah SW or armies with more options can counter a DP , he is no wear near as good as he was in 3.5 . But what does a sorc or lord give me . It only means that your army instead of hitting rhinos or the DP[ok so not your army because of LF] has one target. they focus fire [which actualy means the rhinos can die turn 1 and be out of melta/charge range] and suddenly here I am at the begining of turn 2 without transports looking at an IG gunline/razorspam or LF. Yes its sucks , but with more targets it at least means something will live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 I came across a few references regarding Possessed where the daemon within them only truly manifests in battle, and that's when it warps the Astartes' flesh to suit its needs. Once the battle is done, the daemon recedes again until the next time it will rise to the surface and become the dominant consciousness. Suffice to say, I thought that was killer. Instead of a full merging, I like the idea of this uneasy, conflicted symbiosis. Two souls at war in the same body, sharing perception and instinct, with extreme periods where one slumbers and the other assumes control. Where did you find this? Sounds like an interesting read. There is background in Codex Chaos Space Marines 3rd edition where there is a possessed Chaos Marine doing his thing and I think that would be what you are looking for, though I can't remember exactly. I too enjoy the thought of an imperfect sybiotic relationship, though for modelling purposes I believe Possessed shouldn't be so random all the time. Just a little impractical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 I don't think allegiances with chaos forces should be absolutely reliable and predictable. I think an element of randomness makes absolute sense, backgroundwise. Of course unpredictable and unreliable elements are not appreciated by gamers, but this is Chaos. If one wanted reliability then perhaps one should not have allied with evil forces from hell. You don't allways get what you bargain for with those. Everyone knows that. Perhaps in the future the effects of the Possessed could even scatter more, ranging from very strong and destructive to downright detrimental. Playing with the dark forces is a risky gamble. You might be granted unbelievable power (for a short time) or you might lose your soul and be turned into a mindless spawn. Just as Ork tech should be risky and unreliable, so should Chaos powers. Obviously neither will allways be popular with every player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 I always thought the same, and I pretty much agree. But I came across a few references regarding Possessed where the daemon within them only truly manifests in battle, and that's when it warps the Astartes' flesh to suit its needs. Once the battle is done, the daemon recedes again until the next time it will rise to the surface and become the dominant consciousness. Suffice to say, I thought that was killer. Instead of a full merging, I like the idea of this uneasy, conflicted symbiosis. Two souls at war in the same body, sharing perception and instinct, with extreme periods where one slumbers and the other assumes control. That was how Reynolds treated Burias-Drak'shal in his Dark Apostle trilogy, though Burias seemed to be the dominant personality throughout, which I always attributed to the Word Bearers' more strict contracts with daemons, as opposed to a more haphazard "oh, come on in" possession the way you seemed to depict what happened to The Exalted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 I don't think allegiances with chaos forces should be absolutely reliable and predictable. I think an element of randomness makes absolute sense, backgroundwise. Of course unpredictable and unreliable elements are not appreciated by gamers, but this is Chaos. If one wanted reliability then perhaps one should not have allied with evil forces from hell. You don't allways get what you bargain for with those. Everyone knows that. You say that, but we're also supposed to just accept that having faith in a dude sitting on a chair will grant invulnerability to damage, or causes across-the-army effects through prayer? The random cuts both ways, and right now only one side's getting the axe blade with it. Why is the loyalist Dead Guy Protects more reliable than a chaos mutation? Allying with evil forces from hell is risky, but is it MORE risky than hoping that a rotting psychic mannequin just happens to be paying attention to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 I don't think allegiances with chaos forces should be absolutely reliable and predictable. I think an element of randomness makes absolute sense, backgroundwise. Of course unpredictable and unreliable elements are not appreciated by gamers, but this is Chaos. If one wanted reliability then perhaps one should not have allied with evil forces from hell. You don't allways get what you bargain for with those. Everyone knows that. Perhaps in the future the effects of the Possessed could even scatter more, ranging from very strong and destructive to downright detrimental. Playing with the dark forces is a risky gamble. You might be granted unbelievable power (for a short time) or you might lose your soul and be turned into a mindless spawn. Just as Ork tech should be risky and unreliable, so should Chaos powers. Obviously neither will allways be popular with every player. The thing is, while I absolutely love that idea from a fluff perspective, tabletop rules need to be built around what works for a game first and foremost. Rules that perfectly reflect the fluff, but produce a unit whose performance is so inconsistent that any competitive list will leave them out are not an ideal solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 You say that, but we're also supposed to just accept that having faith in a dude sitting on a chair will grant invulnerability to damage, or causes across-the-army effects through prayer? Well, yes and no. No, I do not think that the Emperor really intervenes at all as any game effect. That would imply that he protects some Chapters more than others, or that he appreciates the devotion of the Sisters of Battle more than that of the Space Marines. The Sisters of Battle, who are not really related to the Emperor other than now worshiping him as a god, which he never actually wanted. Or the loyal Space Marines, his own genetic sons who still fight in his name and honor him as their leader and creator. Any effect that is labeled as "the Emperor's protection" or whatever in the game is really more of a religious fanatic zeal that makes the warriors ignore pain, is used to explain lucky glances, or keeps them fightin harder. It is not the Emperor giving them a force field or anything. But if you assume that the Emperor can directly intervene on a regular basis, then yes, that should definitely be more reliable than daemonic gifts or daemonic posessions. For the evil creatures of the warp, a host or acolyte is nothing but a pawn and a plaything. It will be used for the daemon's own agenda and can be dropped at a moment's notice when it is no longer usefull or merely has become uninterresting. The Emperor on the other hand cares for his followers, and would not just leave them. The thing is, while I absolutely love that idea from a fluff perspective, tabletop rules need to be built around what works for a game first and foremost. Rules that perfectly reflect the fluff, but produce a unit whose performance is so inconsistent that any competitive list will leave them out are not an ideal solution. I reckon no "competetive list" will ever make use of every single unit of an army at once. For straight forward tournament lists you have enoug hstraight forward and reliable units in the Codex Chaos Space Marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 You say that, but we're also supposed to just accept that having faith in a dude sitting on a chair will grant invulnerability to damage, or causes across-the-army effects through prayer? Well, yes and no. No, I do not think that the Emperor really intervenes at all as any game effect. That would imply that he protects some Chapters more than others, or that he appreciates the devotion of the Sisters of Battle more than that of the Space Marines. The Sisters of Battle, who are not really related to the Emperor other than now worshiping him as a god, which he never actually wanted. Or the loyal Space Marines, his own genetic sons who still fight in his name and honor him as their leader and creator. Any effect that is labeled as "the Emperor's protection" or whatever in the game is really more of a religious fanatic zeal that makes the warriors ignore pain, is used to explain lucky glances, or keeps them fightin harder. It is not the Emperor giving them a force field or anything. Fluff seems to pretty solidly indicate that there's more to the power of Faith in the Emperor than just the delusions of fanatics. Even before the Horus Heresy, we had things like believers in the Emperor being able to destroy Daemons through the power of their faith, and things like a Sister of Battle becoming stronger than a Space Marine after saying the right prayer to the Emperor are kind of hard to dismiss as having no supernatural component. That's not to say that the God-Emperor is literally granting power to his faithful from atop the Golden Throne; I know a lot of people have theorized that manifestation of the Emperor's divine power are actually just the result of untold trillions of humans believing in the Emperor's divinity. In the 40k Universe, if enough people believe something is true, then, to some degree, it actually becomes the truth. That's why when Orks paint their vehicles red, they really do go faster. The thing is, while I absolutely love that idea from a fluff perspective, tabletop rules need to be built around what works for a game first and foremost. Rules that perfectly reflect the fluff, but produce a unit whose performance is so inconsistent that any competitive list will leave them out are not an ideal solution. I reckon no "competetive list" will ever make use of every single unit of an army at once. For straight forward tournament lists you have enoug hstraight forward and reliable units in the Codex Chaos Space Marines. Yes, you can make a tournament-worthy list in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, as long as you don't mind having your army led by a pair of Daemon Princes, and then consisting of Plague Marines and Obliterators, with a bit of Termicide and/or outflanking chosen thrown in. Personally, I would rather see a Chaos Codex where every unit was a tournament-worthy choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 How about this for picking the daemonic mutations... you pick 1 from a list before you deploy and then roll a dice on a 3-5 that is what you get... on a 1-2 you get a random power on the table... and on a 6 you get the one you wanted and a random roll on the table... That would make it more reliable but still keep it somewhat random... Orks are the comic relief in 40k not chaos... and if you want fluff bring back jamming assault cannons as it has been said game mechanics are more important... when it comes to the game... I think a good balance between both fluff and game mechanics can be made but then all the units need to equally viable for their points... obviously some combinations within the codex will be better but bad units that make bad combos won't be taken very often... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Fluff seems to pretty solidly indicate that there's more to the power of Faith in the Emperor than just the delusions of fanatics. At least in the case of the Black Templars it is obvious that it is their own fanatic zeal that is behind the effects of their vows. On vows --> "Roused to incredible heights of righteous zeal, the Black Templars swear mighty oaths to bring ruin upon the foes of the Emperor." C:BT, p. 23 On the invulnerable save --> "such is their faith in the Emperor and their own invulnerability that they shrug off the most severe wounds" C:BT, p. 24 With the Sisters of Battle that is less apparent, because the entire theme of the force is divine purpose and religious fanaticism. But their "acts of faith" (clue in the title) could just as easily be explained as nothing but their own imagination and zeal. If a bullet strieks true, of course it was guided by the Emperor's will. If the warrior is in a fanatic frenzy, he will fight harder and ignore certain wounds, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Fluff seems to pretty solidly indicate that there's more to the power of Faith in the Emperor than just the delusions of fanatics. At least in the case of the Black Templars it is obvious that it is their own fanatic zeal that is behind the effects of their vows. On vows --> "Roused to incredible heights of righteous zeal, the Black Templars swear mighty oaths to bring ruin upon the foes of the Emperor." C:BT, p. 23 On the invulnerable save --> "such is their faith in the Emperor and their own invulnerability that they shrug off the most severe wounds" C:BT, p. 24 With the Sisters of Battle that is less apparent, because the entire theme of the force is divine purpose and religious fanaticism. But their "acts of faith" (clue in the title) could just as easily be explained as nothing but their own imagination and zeal. If a bullet strieks true, of course it was guided by the Emperor's will. If the warrior is in a fanatic frenzy, he will fight harder and ignore certain wounds, etc. None of your examples address the other, explicitly supernatural, things that I mentioned in my last post. Yes, sometimes such divine intervention can be explained by the simple fanaticism of its believers, but other times it is clear that there is some sort of force at work tied to belief in the Emperor. It's hard to explain away things like daemons being driven back or even cast into the warp by someone with enough faith invoking the Emperor's name and/or using holy objects. For that matter, why do holy weapons have any more effect on Daemons that an ordinary ones? I would also like to see any non-supernatural explanation for how Sisters of Battle can, after saying the appropriate prayer, suddenly become stronger than a space Marine or faster than an Eldar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 How about this for picking the daemonic mutations... you pick 1 from a list before you deploy and then roll a dice on a 3-5 that is what you get... on a 1-2 you get a random power on the table... and on a 6 you get the one you wanted and a random roll on the table... That would make it more reliable but still keep it somewhat random... Yeah that is more like it. I like the idea of Chaos being more powerful but with a hint of unpredictability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 None of your examples address the other, explicitly supernatural, things that I mentioned in my last post. That is because I was talking mainly about in game effects, since we were discussing why Emperor effects should be more reliable than daemonic gifts. There may well be actual miracles caused by the Emperor's intervention, but those can probably not be called "reliable", as there would be no daemon problem if they were, would there? For that matter, why do holy weapons have any more effect on Daemons that an ordinary ones? Usually those are some kind of force weapon, but in other instances it still makes sense that a daemon, which is a "spiritual" (or "warp based") construct itself, would be susceptible to other forms of "spiritual" effect. It makes more sense than the will of the emperor actually repelling a bolt round. I would also like to see any non-supernatural explanation for how Sisters of Battle can, after saying the appropriate prayer, suddenly become stronger than a space Marine or faster than an Eldar. The latter is explained pretty straight forward in the Codex Witch Hunters: "The faithful leap and weave through the chaos of melée, striking at their foes with a speed born of their holy fervour." The former is less straight forward, but can still be taken as metaphorical: "praying to the Emperor to channel His wrath through their bodies, the Sisters strike down their foes with preternatural strength." To explain those I only need to invoke another universal special rule: Furious Charge. Models with furious charge can get +1 Strength and +1 Initiative under certain conditions. That does not mean they suddenly become supernaturally string and fast. It is explained through adrenaline, rage, zeal, etc. In the case of those Sisters of Battle Acts of Faith it is only one characteristic that is improved, though it is improved by +2 instead of just +1. The one that adds to strength at the same time also reduces their initiative as well though. So there is a physical tradeoff. In 3rd Edition there was a special character named "Ox" among Colonel Shaeffer's Last Chancers. If another of his squad mates was killed in battle, he would be enraged and would double his Toughness and Strength for the rest of the game (S and T 6!!). His body did not suddenly transform into that of a Hive Tyrant or Greater Daemon, he was just really really angry, and it was kind of a "fun/fluff" rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Legatus- if you want to start a thread on the fluff of how the emperor empowers his servants vs how the chaos gods empower their servants, by all means do so. If you want to start a thread on how C:CSM should be designed to accurately represent the fluff, by all means do so. Please dont put it in a thread that is about someone asking for a viable HQ choice for their army. Your not alone in this however, all of you should probly take these ideas and go make some other threads about them, instead of hijacking the OPs initial question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Part of that's my fault, too. Sorry for the threadjack about one of my biggest pet peeves about the game rules. On the matter of HQs, one thing I confess I have not tried is using Fabius Bile as booster HQ for Icon-bearing CSMs, something I may try out in the coming weeks as a lark. I'll inevitably team him up with something else, probably a Wing Sorcerer, but I'm thinking for a <2000 point game his effects might bear some telltale weight on 10-man squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmic Archmage Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 A Sorcerer with Warptime and Mark of Tzeentch will wreck the face of anything with multiple wounds. Add in Doombolt and you got a great character at shooting and assault for a mere 165 points. I would not go as far as to say that it's better than a Daemon Prince, but it's certainly not bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xeonic Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 And a Daemon Prince with Wings and Warptime would cost 10 points less. With Warptime, a Prince would cause on average 4.32 dead MEQ on the charge. With Doombolt, your Sorc would kill 1.25 MEQ(making doombolt IMO, a bad investment, loyalists get it free and still don't take it) With Warptime, he would kill 3.34 MEQ on the charge, hooray for rerollable everything! In contrast, a twinclaws lord with MoK would kill 3.01 MEQ on the charge, but would only cost 130 pts. The sorc could hide in a rhino(and doesn't require Wings), but the Daemon Prince can help keep the same rhinos alive(target saturation). I think all things considered, the Sorc isn't a bad choice, but I just give mine Warptime and and call that the end of it. 125 pts gives you a very competent CC leader, and if you must have that 4++, you can still give him MoT and not take a second power. I don't personally rate MoT that highly because I'm spoiled by 15 pt storm shields. :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 With Warp Time and Wind of Chaos a Tzeentch sorcerer could easily kill 7 MEQ in one single turn, provided he can cover 6 models with his template. With Warp Time he also has a reasonable chance to inflict a wound on a monstrous T6 creature and then take it out with his force weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 With Warp Time and Wind of Chaos a Tzeentch sorcerer could easily kill 7 MEQ in one single turn, provided he can cover 6 models with his template. With Warp Time he also has a reasonable chance to inflict a wound on a monstrous T6 creature and then take it out with his force weapon. Unless I'm mistaken he can only use 1 power a turn though, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 With Warp Time and Wind of Chaos a Tzeentch sorcerer could easily kill 7 MEQ in one single turn, provided he can cover 6 models with his template. With Warp Time he also has a reasonable chance to inflict a wound on a monstrous T6 creature and then take it out with his force weapon. Unless I'm mistaken he can only use 1 power a turn though, right? He can use two, meaning he still couldn't WT, Wind AND FW in the same turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 With Warp Time and Wind of Chaos a Tzeentch sorcerer could easily kill 7 MEQ in one single turn, provided he can cover 6 models with his template. With Warp Time he also has a reasonable chance to inflict a wound on a monstrous T6 creature and then take it out with his force weapon. Unless I'm mistaken he can only use 1 power a turn though, right? He can use two, meaning he still couldn't WT, Wind AND FW in the same turn. No, obviously he would use Warp Time + Chaos Wind against squads and Warp Time + Force Weapon against monstrous creatures or characters. Sorry if I was being ambiguous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 With Warp Time and Wind of Chaos a Tzeentch sorcerer could easily kill 7 MEQ in one single turn, provided he can cover 6 models with his template. With Warp Time he also has a reasonable chance to inflict a wound on a monstrous T6 creature and then take it out with his force weapon. Unless I'm mistaken he can only use 1 power a turn though, right? He can use two, meaning he still couldn't WT, Wind AND FW in the same turn. Oh. Why did I think he could only use one? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 With Warp Time and Wind of Chaos a Tzeentch sorcerer could easily kill 7 MEQ in one single turn, provided he can cover 6 models with his template. With Warp Time he also has a reasonable chance to inflict a wound on a monstrous T6 creature and then take it out with his force weapon. Unless I'm mistaken he can only use 1 power a turn though, right? He can use two, meaning he still couldn't WT, Wind AND FW in the same turn. Oh. Why did I think he could only use one? :P You probably forgot that the Mark of Tzeentch adds an extra psyker power per-turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 With Warp Time and Wind of Chaos a Tzeentch sorcerer could easily kill 7 MEQ in one single turn, provided he can cover 6 models with his template. With Warp Time he also has a reasonable chance to inflict a wound on a monstrous T6 creature and then take it out with his force weapon. Unless I'm mistaken he can only use 1 power a turn though, right? He can use two, meaning he still couldn't WT, Wind AND FW in the same turn. No, obviously he would use Warp Time + Chaos Wind against squads and Warp Time + Force Weapon against monstrous creatures or characters. Which is where units containing characters stuffs you up bigtime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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