HQ choices

[Mortanix]

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[Shas'o R'Vre]

I've not seen a mention of the special characters

170 odd points for an IDable character?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I've not seen a mention of the special characters

170 odd points for an IDable character?

 

It is a risk, Abaddon being the only exception to the non-IDable rule, but he is so expensive. :)

 

I'm seriously giving thought to experimentation with Bile, though. He's the only CSM character that actually does something FOR the army, he's relatively cheap to field, and he can be hidden in the back while his boys wreck face. Game night for us is Thursday, I might throw down a Bile list and see what happens. Stay tuned. :)

[Legatus]

Which is where units containing characters stuffs you up bigtime.

In such a case, hopefully your Sorcerer is not all by himself either. Try to bind the enemy power fist sergeant with your squad and get your sorcerer into contact with the enemy character. Or bind the enemy character (and powerfist sergeant) and have your Sorcerer decimate the enemy squad.

[Mortanix]

-Post deleted-

[Chengar Qordath]

I've not seen a mention of the special characters

170 odd points for an IDable character?

To be fair, Khârn could probably kill enough to make up his points cost in a single assault phase. Just don't roll any ones.

[Xeonic]

Not that it matters if he rolls 1s, because BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows(and neither should you!).

 

I've always felt Khârn was the best value special character in the chaos codex, for 165 pts you get a whole lot of killy over a standard lord, including:

A BS5 plasma pistol, for what it's worth. ;)

WS7, and CC attacks hit on a 2+(not normally possible on the 5th ed. WS chart!)

7 attacks on the charge

S5, 6 on the charge with a power weapon with 2d6 armor pen

Personal immunity to psykerey effects

 

All that for 10 pts more than a lord with daemon weapon, MoK and a plasma pistol.

[minigun762]

Not that it matters if he rolls 1s, because BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! :lol:

Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows(and neither should you!).

 

I've always felt Khârn was the best value special character in the chaos codex, for 165 pts you get a whole lot of killy over a standard lord, including:

A BS5 plasma pistol, for what it's worth. :lol:

WS7, and CC attacks hit on a 2+(not normally possible on the 5th ed. WS chart!)

7 attacks on the charge

S5, 6 on the charge with a power weapon with 2d6 armor pen

Personal immunity to psykerey effects

 

All that for 10 pts more than a lord with daemon weapon, MoK and a plasma pistol.

 

I agree that Khârn is the #1 choice for a special character. After that, I think the best option is probably Lucius as he's basically a weaker version of Khârn with a Doom Siren instead.

 

I have been thinking more and more about replacing Warptime with Wind of Chaos. I think it has more potential to weaken those units that can really hurt a DP before you charge like huge Ork Boyz mobs or Terminators.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

[i have been thinking more and more about replacing Warptime with Wind of Chaos. I think it has more potential to weaken those units that can really hurt a DP before you charge like huge Ork Boyz mobs or Terminators.

Personally I've used it a few times to liquidise units like Assault Marines or Berzerkers. Watch the look on your opponent's face as his expensive assault troops turn to Warp-Tainted slop with no hope of an armour save.

[minigun762]

It definitely loses out to WT the longer you're in combat but I'm thinking that the "alpha strike" nature of the power to really damage the squad you're going to hit beforehand will tip the battle far enough into your favor that you'll still come out ahead in the end.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

It definitely loses out to WT the longer you're in combat but I'm thinking that the "alpha strike" nature of the power to really damage the squad you're going to hit beforehand will tip the battle far enough into your favor that you'll still come out ahead in the end.

Or you can take MoTz and take both. Then you can Reroll the WoC, AND wreck face in Assault.

[Cosmic Archmage]

No, obviously he would use Warp Time + Chaos Wind against squads and Warp Time + Force Weapon against monstrous creatures or characters.

Which is where units containing characters stuffs you up bigtime.

 

That's where the Aspiring Sorcerer with Warptime comes in :D

 

Also, on Special Characters, I do think Khârn is pretty much awesome for what he cost. He would not fear power fist that much, because if he ever happens not to kill what he assaults, theres his squad of berserkers attack to add up as well. Of course, powerfist are but one way to easily dispose of such a squishy guy.

 

Fabius Bile is decent, if you make full use of the Enhenced warrior gimmick. Abbadon is too expansive for the risk of losing his attacks. Lucius is poorly designed, you pay 5 points less than Khârn for much worse CC abilities. Ahriman and Typhus are too expansive to not be EW. Huron is not so bad because he has Warptime and a heavy flamer, wich is nice.

[Mortanix]

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[minigun762]

Its a very viable option for a DP. The only drawback is the pricetag of 200+ points. Its not a huge increase over the 175 of the NDP with Warptime but compared to the cheaper naked DPs, its alot more.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Its a very viable option for a DP. The only drawback is the pricetag of 200+ points. Its not a huge increase over the 175 of the NDP with Warptime but compared to the cheaper naked DPs, its alot more.

Seconded. But the 200+ is made up for in survivability. Except for one or two games, he usually kills his weight in points, and is worth a lot more.

 

Just don't expose him to Sternguard Bolter fire: Linky

[the jeske]

Oh I know I wasn't claiming they were any good I was just pointing out the irony of everyone crying fluff heresy on using daemon princes but never using the units that at least have some real flavour to them

most people dont play an EC warband , WE warband , ahrimans cabal [which is small] or the renegade group tyfus has. And even for those that do . the DP is better.

 

 

Seconded. But the 200+ is made up for in survivability. Except for one or two games, he usually kills his weight in points, and is worth a lot more.

 

I dont know If it was like in the 4th where DPs were dieing in 2-3 turns due to a stady number of unsaved las shots and rending a +4 inv would have been an improvement even with 1 wound a DP could still be safe in hth[due to kill zone and smaller squad size] . right now they will just get scater lasered/rapid fired/RL to tough and even if they dont a DP with 1-2 wounds is dead against a 8-10 man meq squad.

you say the DP with mot and 2 powers makes it up with survivability . I just doent see it. now a +3 inv does subsetialy change how a MC/IC/unit dies from low ap +4 will just mean they will be no over kill [those 10RL will kill him anyway ]. + what he does is make the rest of your army weaker . 2x200+ DPs is 80 pts you have to find somewhere . Do you cut the rhinos or the troops ? no you cant do that . MoT DPs are not mefos + we cant combat squad , so playing 2 rhinos or slogging is out of the question [+ we have no way to change the scoring status for our units] . So the only place you can cut stuff from is the anti tank . now chaos is already short on anti tank/anti transport/anti meq with it more or less coming from one slot only . so we we cut oblits 80 pts is more then 75 so we have to cut a whole unit . so we now are runing around with a single support squads. now for such a set up to work the MoT DP would have to be like a falcon or at least extremly deadly to make it worth it . Problem is all those extra psychic powers can be stoped [even by nids] , so we are paying more for something that has a 50% chance to not work and we cut our only form of long range support to do it . [+ we get 65+ pts left overs with which we cant do anything useful].

I said it so many times and I will say it again. The fact that you have MoT does not mean you have to buy 2 psychic powers.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

right now they will just get scater lasered/rapid fired/RL to tough and even if they dont a DP with 1-2 wounds is dead against a 8-10 man meq squad.

you say the DP with mot and 2 powers makes it up with survivability . I just doent see it.

He's a huge shock and awe weapon I find. I fly him up behind my Zerker Raider usually (where he can't be seen by most guns), and he jumps out, Warptimes, turns about 25% (or more) of a squad to slop qith WoC, and he and the Berzerkers promptly wreck face. The opponent then tries to kill him with whatever he's got, leaving my troops alive, and the prince having paid back his points. The 4+ Invuln works well when saving against PFists ECT, as I tend to be taking most other hits against my 3+ Power Armour.

[the jeske]

ok so you play a LR rush build , this means you have 0 long range anti tank . so yeah if your opponent is not mecha or doesnt move and cant deal with LR[what more or less means problem against any LR rush build not just a chaos one] , it should work . only it is a win more situation . a charge from a zerker squads and a DP should break most units and if it doesnt then its probably not worth charging it with or without winds of chaos working 50% of time. becuase if you need winds to beat that unit , then if it doesnt work you will be in the open in charge range with smaller or no chance to survive hth and you will still have to charge to stop your opponent from getting extra attacks. Win more units are always bad , now if MoT was cheap or chaos powers were free/cheaper for MoT guys , I may find some arguments pro 2 psychic powers . DPs are support units/counter units , they almost always die .80 pts for something that will probably die anyway , is a win more choice and doesnt help with stuff cheaper DPs suck at [like lets say there was a anti tank or control long range power that could be used], is not worth it. not in 1500-1750 where points are hard to find [specialy 80+] and not in 2k-2250 because there having a bit higher inv doesnt help and psychic powers actualy are harder to go off[because no one cant fit a hood in to a 2k+list]

[Xeonic]

In short, you're postulating that there's only "One True List" and that anyone who builds differently is playing a sub par list on purpose regardless of local meta or other considerations?

 

Can you play Land Raiders without being a "Raider Rush" List? Sure, IMO.

Can you play a list with a dual power psykerey prince? Sure, but as jeske points out the points have to come from somewhere, which may result in an overall weaker list, I'll give you that.

Would such a list be ultimately deemed to fail? Not with any certainty IMO.

 

There could even be a number of places the points could come from:

You could use combi preds and save 30 points over 6 oblits, or defilers, or possessed Vindis, or *gasp* a mix. It is true that Oblits are our most versatile HS choice, but they're hardly the only one. the combi-preds even output more damage, though they're a lot harder to get a coversave on.

You could even drop some infantry upgrades or models without seriously degrading the list.

 

My point is that basically not everyone plays every single game with a super "optimized" tournamant all comers list, and not all lists that deviate from your ideal are as doomed to fail as you seem to believe.

[coolyo294]

I was going to convert an Ironclad Dreadnought and use it as Warsmith Beroussus (Deamon Prince) from Dead Sky Black Sun. How should I arm him to best represent him?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I was going to convert an Ironclad Dreadnought and use it as Warsmith Beroussus (Deamon Prince) from Dead Sky Black Sun. How should I arm him to best represent him?

 

A T5, no AV Dreadnought? I feel sorry for that guy. ;)

 

I'd go Mark of Nurgle to get some Toughness, two chainfists to even out to 4 attacks base, and Wind of Chaos to represent a badass heavy flamer.

[the jeske]

Would such a list be ultimately deemed to fail? Not with any certainty IMO.

you would have to assume other people would play sub par list while they have better codex with more flexibilty and more list... or play only against necron or sob or gk [which have one list just like we do].

 

 

You could use combi preds and save 30 points over 6 oblits, or defilers, or possessed Vindis, or *gasp* a mix

a possessed vindi costs 5 pts less then 2 oblits. it wont fit. a defiler cost as much as 2 oblits . it wont fit. a combi pred costs less. but its static + it does not cost [150 cost of droped oblits-80 pts price paid for mot and second power]70 pts . so again it wont fit. unless to fit in that we also start droping gear from our troops. for that to happen a MoT DP would have to be realy awesome .

 

 

In short, you're postulating that there's only "One True List" and that anyone who builds differently is playing a sub par list on purpose regardless of local meta or other considerations?

there is a limited number of possible good builds .specialy for chaos . a not optimal build cant deal in an all comers enviroment . ergo if it cant deal in any enviroment [a good list is when you come in to a shop/tournament and it works no matter what your opponent plays] is a sub par list.

I didnt see the whole MoT DP thing starting with " and we have no anti psyker stuff , no one plays mecha and/or SW or IG here". If not then it doesnt realy help us , as I think we still are talking about the us of chaos HQ or how stuff can or can not work in odd enviroments.

[Captain Idaho]

That's only if you believe in the optimal list build for each army. I have seen some very impressive performances from some lists many would consider "sub-optimal". It's the way you build a list to play a certain way and counter the things that would hurt the army list's ability to win games, whilst maintain your control on the game and you're performance that really wins 40K.

[Piousservant]

That's only if you believe in the optimal list build for each army. I have seen some very impressive performances from some lists many would consider "sub-optimal". It's the way you build a list to play a certain way and counter the things that would hurt the army list's ability to win games, whilst maintain your control on the game and you're performance that really wins 40K.

 

And the rolls of the dice. ^_^

[Zhukov]

I wondered how a thread which was made with the question what the best HQ choice is can become so extensive haha.

 

Maybe no surprise but I agree with pretty much everything Jeske says. While a list which is non-optimised should still do well, I'm afraid this doesnt really apply to our Chaos Codex... I'm really of the opinion that as soon as you change anything major, the list falls apart. Yes thats sad... While the performance of other armies might drop from 100% to 95% for example, I have the idea that ours drops way more substantial, from 100% to 85% for example. I could try to explain carefully what I think causes this, maybe I'll do this later. But trust me, I dont say this without reason. I also dont only say this from a theory point of view, I got it confirmed when playing with 'non-optimised' builds. (yes I played with bad builds, its true!)

 

Taking my above reasoning for granted, you get the next thing:

When you play with a non-optimised Chaos list against someone else who uses for example the Space Wolves codex, you are at a disadvantage. You'll get the 85% versus the 95%, simply said. (yes I already assume here that when both armies use a their optimal build, that is the '100%' build they will be equally strong. This might not even be true, maybe when you rate our best build as 100%, the best SW build would be 110% for example.)

 

 

That's only if you believe in the optimal list build for each army. I have seen some very impressive performances from some lists many would consider "sub-optimal". It's the way you build a list to play a certain way and counter the things that would hurt the army list's ability to win games, whilst maintain your control on the game and you're performance that really wins 40K.

Your reasoning has a flaw in it: Even optimal builds have weaknesses. There is no 'perfect' army. Every model has a certain statline/rules/wargear with a point cost for example.

 

The next thing follows from this: With optimal builds you also need to work around weaknesses of your army, you also need to 'exploit' weaknesses of your oponents army. This also explains why I hate it when competative players get attacked by other kind of players, they sometimes seem to imply that optimised builds dont require any skill. Nonsense.

 

All the above are underlying reasons why I play with an optimised list:

I want games which are as balanced as possible. Because when its as balanced as possible, it has the best chances of being a close game. You know, a game where even small things can have such an exciting impact. Games which are decided by a few choices or even a SINGLE DICE ROLL. Awesome games and thats when I (so this doesnt need to apply to everyone) love this game the most.

 

In my opinion the highest chance of getting this is when both armies play with optimal builds. Why? Because when you both take a list as good as possible, you both have a '100%' build, simply because thats the maxium you can take. On the other hand, when you both take a weaker/non-optimised build, how can you know if they are still roughly of the same quality? What if when build A is suddenly at 80% while B is at 50%? Then its not balanced anymore.

 

You could still say 'but not all codexes are equally strong!'. True, but thats irrelevant because that applies to the balance of both 'a battle of optimised builds' and to 'a battle of non-optimised builds'. The spread just gets larger for non-optimised builds: you could suddenly get 85% for A and 45% for B which is even worse than initial.

Actually, balance has less influence when playing with optimised builds, because of the thing called 'metagame'. If a certain codex would be stronger than some other, then the other codexes will take that into account when making their builds. All lists will make itself a little weaker against each other, while getting a little stronger against that 1 particular list/codex. All these little changes people make to their armies in an attempt to keep their list as good as possible against any possible army/build settles 'the metagame'. This mechanism is beautiful, because it makes the game pretty balanced even while the codexes at themselves are not balanced.

 

With this in mind, it is also explainable while there are only a few codex which are truly underpowered: Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Necrons in my view. Dark Angels simply because there are other codexes better than theirs in pretty much every respect. So even while they can somewhat adapt to the metagame, they'll end up with a list which Vanilla Marines do cheaper.

Grey Knights and Necrons simply cant succesfully adapt to the metagame. Their choics are not only overpriced, but they also lack many choices. They are stuck with a limited set of overpriced units.

This is why I say 'hooray' to the fact that all the recent codexes have so many options. Althought they might be 'unecessary' from a fluff points of view, it means that the change is bigger that a codex will be able to adapt to the metagame for a longer period of time.

It is still possible that something is really overpowered. This would be the case when it simply takes too much 'adaption' to counter a certain thing or when its simply not possible to defend yourself or counter a certain list/unit.

Fortunately this hasnt really occured in the last years it seems. Nob Bikers and Lash came closest to it I think....

 

It seems that I pretty much explained my view on 40k, although unintended.

 

I dont deny the fact that you can win with a bad list against a good list btw. Thats not the point of my story. I purely gave my view on army lists in 40k and what I think makes up for the best game in theory. You can win of course with a bad list against a better list because of skill or luck.

 

Am I still talking about 40k here with this maybe somewhat scientific ramble? Yes. Normally I would never think about the things I wrote down here, but these are nonetheless underlying reasons which I now simply wrote down. Things which explain why I seem to prefer to play with optimised lists. The sad thing thing, while a lot of codexes dont have a clear 'best build' or which have a lot of builds which are close to an optimised build (so for example; 3x 98% + 2x 100%), Chaos doesnt have this.... I would love to play with a lot of different builds with Chaos, but that goes against my gut feeling, which I tried to explain above. Its unnatural for me to play with a 92% build. But I dont want to play with the same build either, so I simply dont play with Chaos anymore.

 

I hope my ramble is somewhat readable and hopefully even interesting to some people at least ;)

 

And to add something practical to the discussion: MoT is also bad, because it adds survivability which isnt that usefull. You can get a 4+ cover save very often, which renders MoT situational. If you compare it with MoN: you can get a T6 and a 4+ cover save which is clearly superior to T5 and 4+ cover/invulnerable save. That plus the fact that taking psychic powers (especially 2) is questionable already.... makes it truly sub-optimal. Not even close to optimal ^_^ And that goes for almost all non-standard choices: the normal choices are just substantial better in pretty much all cases. I suddenly realize this is in short the reason while our best build loses so much in effectiveness when taking worse choices!