HQ choices

[Daeghrefn]

There are several depending on the exact power you want to counter. Two methods that work for anything would be "kill the user" and "stay out of it's range".

Just like any other weapon, offensive psychic powers can be reduced in effectiveness by good positioning.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I'm sure that staying outside of 24" will accomplish absolutely neither of your "methods", and the problem will still come to you. :)

[Daeghrefn]

Ask a generic question, get a generic answer. Give me something specific. But the answer will probably be "shoot him with a lascannon."

[Grey Mage]

your opponents run casters without attendant squads?

[Daeghrefn]

I'm just pointing out that the CSM sorcerer has always served me more faithfully than a daemon prince, and the DP doesn't do anything to enemy psykers either. This is not the only army that has little to no psyker defense, yet many of you seem determined to cry bitter tears about it and ignore the strengths of what we have.

You might have more luck focusing on the positive abilites of our HQs instead of merely assuming that a fight cannot be won without using twin lash DPs. That list is old, it's been done, and if thats the only way you are capable of winning with this army you may want to reevaluate your tactics on a deeper level.

[Grey Mage]

I'm just pointing out that the CSM sorcerer has always served me more faithfully than a daemon prince, and the DP doesn't do anything to enemy psykers either. This is not the only army that has little to no psyker defense, yet many of you seem determined to cry bitter tears about it and ignore the strengths of what we have.

You might have more luck focusing on the positive abilites of our HQs instead of merely assuming that a fight cannot be won without using twin lash DPs. That list is old, it's been done, and if thats the only way you are capable of winning with this army you may want to reevaluate your tactics on a deeper level.

Hey, I agree that the sorcerer is a good HQ for its points, and can be quite effective... no questions there.

 

But you stated you had ways of dealing with enemy psychic powers, despite not having any real say in the matter through rules or wargear. I suppose you could say simply taking what they throw at you is dealing with it in a way- but most wouldnt, and its certainly not the implication.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I'm just pointing out that the CSM sorcerer has always served me more faithfully than a daemon prince, and the DP doesn't do anything to enemy psykers either. This is not the only army that has little to no psyker defense, yet many of you seem determined to cry bitter tears about it and ignore the strengths of what we have.

You might have more luck focusing on the positive abilites of our HQs instead of merely assuming that a fight cannot be won without using twin lash DPs. That list is old, it's been done, and if thats the only way you are capable of winning with this army you may want to reevaluate your tactics on a deeper level.

 

It's not a matter of ignoring strengths we have, it's that the strengths we have can be rendered meaningless; the same in reverse cannot be said to be true, which you alluded to and which I have called you out on. Furthermore, no one is saying a double Lash list is the only way to go about taking care of business; it's just that pound for pound, we are an offensive force, and everything is geared towards offensive tactics, and for that, the DP is equal to or superior to the Sorcerer, who while being an all-offensive machine, is rendered into basically an expensive non-Fearless dead-on-Str 8 mini-Lord if a Librarian is on the field. A DP, even stripped of whatever psyker powers you bought him, is still a CC-driven multi-Wound non-instakillable monstrous creature.

[Cosmic Archmage]

It's not a matter of ignoring strengths we have, it's that the strengths we have can be rendered meaningless; the same in reverse cannot be said to be true, which you alluded to and which I have called you out on. Furthermore, no one is saying a double Lash list is the only way to go about taking care of business; it's just that pound for pound, we are an offensive force, and everything is geared towards offensive tactics, and for that, the DP is equal to or superior to the Sorcerer, who while being an all-offensive machine, is rendered into basically an expensive non-Fearless dead-on-Str 8 mini-Lord if a Librarian is on the field. A DP, even stripped of whatever psyker powers you bought him, is still a CC-driven multi-Wound non-instakillable monstrous creature.

 

You seem to imply that whenever theres a psychic hood on the other side of the table, you will NEVER get any power off. Assuming equal leadership, the actual chance of a Librarian cancelling your powers is less than 50%. Add in Mark of Tzeentch and you get to attempt Warptime twice. While I agree that a Daemon Prince is a better offensive force, he will very rarely survive a whole game, while a Sorcerer has the chance to make it trough the fire.

 

As for psychic defense, everybody seems to take it for granted and believe they are THAT game breaking. Hardly so, our powers (exept if you run a Lash list) are not necessary for us to carry on. Unlike a Libby, Rune Priest or Farseer who can't do much if they are neutered, our Sorcerer is still, as you put it yourself, a mini-Lord with the statline to wreck faces on assault, psychic powers or not.

[Zhukov]

But still, one of the biggest reasons people take Libbies/Priests is for their Hoods/Staff for psychic protection. Maybe its even the biggest reason. Heck, I dont even think vanilla/BA would take a libby if they did not have a hood. They also give a squad Ld10 (which is especially nice for wolves) and still some increased combat. Also they all have 'supportive powers' or powers which are extremely good for some other reason:

BA: Preferred enemy for the squad? Yes please.

SW: Powers to affect Jumppack, skimmers etc? d6 Autocanon with unlimited range? Making a unit take difficult + dangerous terrain next turn?

Vanilla: re-rolling invulnerable saves for the enemy?

 

Ours do not give any psychic protection. Ours do not have any real supportive powers or something similar. (well maybe Lash, but thats covered enough I guess). Yes we do have increased combat stats, but indirectly we pay for that because we have to pay for psychic powers. And unless we pay for it, we cant take a 2nd. They all can choose 2.

Wings, MoT and Warptime? Thats 175 points. Thats a lot for an instakillable model who's combat effectiveness is limited when his power doesnt go off.

 

Also you mention they dont do much when their psyhic powers get neutered. But we cant neuter theirs! And when they play against each other, then they neuter each other psychic powers, so then thats a trade-off for both, IE no loss there. For example when Njal goes up against Eldrad: Within range of Njal, Eldrad will get less than 1/3 of his powers off. But Njal on the other side will fry himself. When they go up against us, our Sorcerer will suck while theirs will be good to go!

 

People keep mentioning the fact that Princes die a lot. So? What do you get now: Your sorcerer sits in squad in a rhino. Well now the rhino gets shot and then your troops in it. Now something else just suffers instead of the Prince. So your sorcerer better do a LOT to compensate for that. I'm not seeing this, he's just not that helpfull all around. In the end its just an extra kind of Combat character in an army which has enough CC in it. His stats, although better than other psychers, are still far from great.

 

What does the sorcerer give you, what you need?

 

Dont take my words too harsh, I just like too be critical so you get good arguments from both sides. I would love it when you can point out why the sorcerer is so great, instead of saying why he doesnt really suck. Its clear to me that he doesnt really suck, but I want something which is good!

 

I knew I read something in this thread which is the best reason untill now to get MoT on your Prince, and which I forgot about:

The benefit I'm finding with Mark of Tzeentch is that it greatly increases the chances that you'll get that warptime off. Two attempts really help to get around that psychic hood!

I thought you could not cast it twice, unless you just failed at passing the Leadership test. Then I must admit its a very attractive choice if you want to run Princes with warptime. Lets see how a re-roll for your psychic test affects your chances against all the psychic defense which is around:

 

It increases his chance from 58,3% to 82,6% against Psychic Hoods (BA, DA, GK, Vanilla) and from 50% to 75% against Runic staff (SW).

Against Eldar its along the same lines as against Wolves, but the problem here is more that you gain Perils as soon as you throw 12 or more with 3d6... So although you get another chance to cast it, you also get another chance of getting Perrils...(its 37,5% normally, the chance of getting twice that result after each other is 14%, the chance of getting it once if while taking 2 psychic tests is 25%.) as a bonus MoT does increase his chance of passing Perils (from 11% to 25%).

Against Tyranids with shadow its the same succes as against Eldar/wolves. But also here you increase your chance of rolling perrils... Its 7,4% for perrils while succesfull casting it and 7,4% also for perrils and NOT succesfully casting it while trying once. Making the chance of NOT getting perrils while rolling twice for your psyhic power (so failing the first time): 72,5%. Chance of getting perrils both times (so failing + perrils the first time) is only: 1,1% I think.

(I got some of the numbers from Dweomer/Dverning, a great 40k player. Why calculate everything yourself when its written already right? ^^)

Maybe its helpfull for people to know.

 

Hmm I'm kinda tempted to try out some Sorcerer setups + MoT princes again, just to see if I can make them work now maybe. (things might change after all)

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Ours do not give any psychic protection. Ours do not have any real supportive powers or something similar.

Which is dumb, seeing as we are the second most warp-exposed race there is (The first being Daemons).

[Hellios]

Ours do not give any psychic protection. Ours do not have any real supportive powers or something similar.

Which is dumb, seeing as we are the second most warp-exposed race there is (The first being Daemons).

 

Khorne should have collers back as upgrades for squad champions... so you can't stop all the powers but you can stop the ones that have a direct effect on your units... without rolling...

 

Tzeentch as master of the arcane arts should be able to mess others up... or at least stop others from messing his guys up...

 

Slaanesh... he/she/it should use protection with all the stuff it gets up to...

 

Nurgle is against protection because he wants his blessings to spread.

[minigun762]

I too have been a fan of the cheap Sorcerer, usually with Doombolt, since it packs alot of punch for the points.

 

My main issue is where to put him. Its too expensive to put him in a Land Raider so that means you're going with a Rhino or Raptor/Biker squad.

Raptors and Bikers are inferior to their Loyalist versions and/or cost significantly more so in most armies, they aren't included.

 

This means its a Rhino. You don't want to use a 9 man CSM squad because you lose out on that 2nd special weapon (same issue as GHs) so it will probably be some time of Cult unit.

 

Thousand Sons could use the extra HtH boost but you'll be killing your I and speed. This leaves Noise Marines, Beserkers or Plague Marines. For me, Berserkers are out due to being unfluffy. Competitively you could argue that they don't need more anti-infantry power.

 

So my Doombolt Sorcerer can either hide in a Noise Marine squad or a Plague Marine squad. Not bad choices really, Doom Siren + Doombolt makes for some nice AP3 death prior to an I5 charge. Plague Marines are my choice though, they need a high I attacks due to being I3 only and they often need additional anti-infantry due to being smaller squads on average.

[Cosmic Archmage]

I don't believe you should discard the Thousand Sons squad that readily for the Sorcerer, sure you sacrifice the speed, but who doesn't take a Rhino these days ? And you certainly don't sacrifice his I5 seeing as he's got frag grenades. At 165 points, like I said before in this thread, you got a strong cc guy, able to complement the Thousand Sons in their AP3 goodness with Doombolt, and will have rerollable Force Weapon attacks. You don't even NEED wings in my opinion as his role will be to stick with the rubrics and help make the squad devastating in any assault.

 

People often argue that squad of Thousand Sons is terrible in assault, but I certainly don't believe so when it's accompanied by a Sorcerer. You got a round of AP3 rapid firing before you charge in. Assuming you go up against another squad of MEQ accompanied but an IC, there are pretty good chances that you can set up your charge in a way that your Sorcerer won't be able to be attacked by the powerfist sergeant, thanks to the casualties the squad will have suffered to your round of shooting. Your sorcerer then proceeds to wipe out a few of the main squad before they attack. Your rubrics and aspiring sorcerer go last, but he can allocate his attacks (again, re-rollable thanks to warptime) to the IC, forceweaponing him with his 4 attacks.

 

Anyway, that is usually how I roll with sorcerers. And believe it or not, it works.

[the jeske]

I too have been a fan of the cheap Sorcerer, usually with Doombolt, since it packs alot of punch for the points.

ok can you give the whole set up , because there is no way a sorc with transport[wings/bikes/rhino]+ baby sitter unit costs less then a DP[what would make it cheap].

 

You don't want to use a 9 man CSM squad because you lose out on that 2nd special weapon (same issue as GHs) so it will probably be some time of Cult unit.

SW are a bit like us [only better] they cant run a 8 man +WG build with fist combi and have a power weapon in the unit and a guy with rending . this gives them 2 sources of power weapon attacks[RP/Lord and th GH dude] 1 fists and 1 d6 A dude with chance for rending. We could try to do the same with a icon and fist champ with combi and a sorc but it costs more and does not perform better[no hood on the sorc, the icon can die , we do not have counter attack or ATSKNF] .

cults units , more or less mean playing BL or some odd ball build[but then again JJ said zerkers +sorc is awesome so who am I to argue] or counts as . But still if someone would want to do choppy in a unit then a Khorn Lord with IC or any [aka nurgle or undivided] lord works better for same points . + again the DP gives the same support , but more targets etc etc.

 

Not bad choices really, Doom Siren + Doombolt makes for some nice AP3 death prior to an I5 charge.

only the syren build means fewer melta and weaker anti tank what for a flamer/hth build means less chance for hth. the sorc does not help with anti tank[not that a DP helps a lot , but he at least can do something to a tankor at least draw away fire] for such lists .

 

Plague Marines are my choice though, they need a high I attacks due to being I3 only and they often need additional anti-infantry due to being smaller squads on average

.

and how does a 4A sorc out perform a DP in anti infantry/tar piting etc[specialy as a sorc will just eat a fist and a DP should live at least for one turn]

[minigun762]

Don't get me wrong Jeske, I'm not saying that Sorcerer > Daemon Prince. I'm a firm believer that the DP is the Chaos standard for HQ units.

 

I was going over my ideas ideas on how to field a Sorcerer if you were sure that is what you wanted.

 

Cosmic: You bring up a fair point, though I'm not 100% on the rules regarding 1 member of a squad with Frags. I don't think it gives the bonus to the whole squad but it might let him use his I5. I guess it would useful for the Thousand Sons in the same way as he would for the Plague Marines.

[Cosmic Archmage]

Don't get me wrong Jeske, I'm not saying that Sorcerer > Daemon Prince. I'm a firm believer that the DP is the Chaos standard for HQ units.

 

I was going over my ideas ideas on how to field a Sorcerer if you were sure that is what you wanted.

 

Cosmic: You bring up a fair point, though I'm not 100% on the rules regarding 1 member of a squad with Frags. I don't think it gives the bonus to the whole squad but it might let him use his I5. I guess it would useful for the Thousand Sons in the same way as he would for the Plague Marines.

 

Only the models without assault grenades that make difficult terrain test strike initiative 1. If 1 model in the whole unit has them, he alones strikes at regular initiative.

[the jeske]

I was going over my ideas ideas on how to field a Sorcerer if you were sure that is what you wanted.

but why would you want a sorc ? that is my question . I dont know maybe am blind but am kind of a missing the whole powerful part. imperial armies have hoods , eldar have runes . meq are most of the play field . sorc power is based on him using a [str 4 :)] power weapon with a rather low number of attacks [if he could get 6 on the charge it would has a good chance to do something to a SS r t5 guy ] . yes hood/rune etc is not an auto stop , but it is still there . would anyone put a biker IC in the open thinking "nah dude has MoT 50% he will survive" , because a sorc with psychic power that gets stoped has a good chance to be dead . Does the anti psyker meta hurt the DP too ? of course . but a DP at least has higher T higher number of A and Str [and gives another target and target saturation means more units get unhurt where they should be] .

I am not a math person , but the way I see it its this . A lord can hurt him self on one roll[the d6 roll for demon weapon] a sorc can hurt himself on 2 [psyker test not passed, hood/runes stop him] .and even if the power works he still has to be in range [like the lord] and if this happens to be in hth [shoting powers dont work] he has to do a lords job with lower str and lower number of attacks.

So I dont know maybe am missing something . I do understand the use of psykers as hth units , I do understand the use of psykers as support units , but I have no idea how people make it better or even good with a chaos army.

[crandall87]

I posted this question on the FBF a while back and had similar replies. I have since been running two daemon princes and between them they are just over 300pts which is a huge bargain for what they can do and how much firepower they can soak up. They do usually die but they can take firepower away from other units.

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe a Sorceror is wanted to be used as a unit enhancer instead of a model that gets shot down at range? With things like Typhoons and Warwalker squadrons out there, a Daemon Prince is pretty much due to get shot dead every game.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

A Sorceror that was able to take close combat buffing powers would be a great addition to a Chaos Dex.

 

Sorceror Champion in a 1KSons squad? He can buff the unit allowing it to actually hurt things in Close Combat.

 

Sorceror babysitting Raptors? Boom, that unit just got a whole lot killier.

 

Sorceror leading CSM's in a Rhino, and therefore forefitting the extra special weapon? Boom, your CSM's just got buffed into an effective CC unit (making up for the loss of a special).

[Hellios]

Maybe a Sorceror is wanted to be used as a unit enhancer instead of a model that gets shot down at range? With things like Typhoons and Warwalker squadrons out there, a Daemon Prince is pretty much due to get shot dead every game.

 

TBH if I have a unit pumping out 6 missile shots a turn I will shoot your DP... or I'll blow up your rhino... (ideally not with the 6 missiles) and then I'll just nuke the squad with missiles... or wait until most of the squad is dead and nuke them with missiles... The question for the 100 and something points you would spend on a DP are you allocating points to other units that will survive better or do more damage?

[the jeske]

A Sorceror that was able to take close combat buffing powers would be a great addition to a Chaos Dex.

well shase technicly he does. warp time is for hth . flamer[breath of chaos ??] is more or less hth to because if you are in range then your probably will charge anyway [of course because of the low AP , sometimes you will not want to us it , but that is the paradox of syren too].

 

 

Maybe a Sorceror is wanted to be used as a unit enhancer instead of a model that gets shot down at range?

well only he doesnt enhance most of our units . csm dont want him , because our rhinos are 10 man. taking a sorc means 1 special and not 2 . yes we get more power weapon attacks , but we still do less then a GH squad with a RP[may as well play SW with the same load out and get hood and more useful powers] . PMs want to be in many places , but not in hth and a shoting sorc or any other form of chaos HQ just aint viable [duh I know aside for tau and nids shoting HQs do kind of suck] . then there are the zerkers , now fluff players now probably go wild with :( sorc in a zerker unit , but I'll ignore that. do the zerkers need a sorc ? few attacks , anti mc/HQ[force weapon if it gets through a SS or higher T, which aint so obvious] or he can help with anti horde with warp time/breath[if he passes the test/and doesnt get dispelled] .a lord does the same , but is much simpler to play ,yes he dies on a roll of 1 , but a sorc dies when he doesnt pass the psyker test or gets stoped by a hood , hell he even dies because the number of his attacks is too low to reliablty get throuhg to HQ . So the sorc does not realy buff our unit. at least not in normal lists.

 

a Daemon Prince is pretty much due to get shot dead every game.

yes he does.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

A Sorceror that was able to take close combat buffing powers would be a great addition to a Chaos Dex.

well shase technicly he does. warp time is for hth . flamer[breath of chaos ??] is more or less hth to because if you are in range then your probably will charge anyway [of course because of the low AP , sometimes you will not want to us it , but that is the paradox of syren too].

You raise a good point. I was thinking more increasing the stats of the ACTUAL unit to give a boost to their combat ability, but what you say is true.