Terminators in a BA army....

[Redfinger]

I posed this question on 3++ a while ago, and I would love to hear the opinions of you gents as well. I love Assault Terminators, nothing brings death better then these guys, the problem is, giving them a ride is expensive...coming from playing Black Templars for a while pretty much all my lists were built around a squad of 5 of these guys, re-roll to hit and to wound made pretty much anything they touched dead!

 

You would think that with such an assault based army, assault termmies would be quite at home in a BA army list, but I dont see them...So I pose the questions then..."Why not?" Is it purely a point factor? If so at what point level do you feel they then become viable? Is it their slow nauture? If so what about dropping a LRC or even using the BA gunship as a transport option, that could get nasty, dropping 5 terminators and a dread at the same spot....That also brings up options about their transport, are we talking Land Raider, LRC, Storm Raven, we have quite a few options.

 

This is where I, as a new player feel a bit of a dilema. I see models that I like, units that seem fun, then I think about putting a list together with them, only to get squashed at the LHS...that is not fun, so that then in my opinion puts me in a situation where I feel like I can't field certain things, because it will be, ultimately, a waste of $$. Now before you take the whole, "play what you want...it's your money" stance, let me just add that I totally realize that, but loosing all the time is not fun, for me at least! That is why I didnt sell my my Black Templar army when I made the change to BA :) But I feel as if there is still combinations that I am missing and, due to my ignorance of the game so far, arent aware of what said combinations would be. When I run my BT's I run 2 LRC's, many BT players suggest that list is not a competative list, it is fun though. My fist BA army has been an all jump list, I get the impression that the jusry is still out on whether or not that is a competative list, but I have a ton of fun with it, and have won more games w/ the jp army than with the 2 LRC army.

 

So that being said, should I just run my BT army any time I am getting a terminator fix, or is it possible to put together an effective list of termmies with the BA?

 

Ashton

[breng77]

I think it jsut depends on the rest of the list around the termis. Looking at it you can definitely make a scary hammer unit with 6 Assault termis, A sanguinary priest, and a Libby (with Unleash rage) running out of a crusader. I mean if you give 3 termis TH/SS, 2 LC and then equip the priest and Libby in termi armor, you get a squad charging in with Furious charge, FNP, and Prefered enemy. I think the problem is that the current thought seems to be that MSU mech BA is the most competitive build in the codex. Also, if you are running an all jump army I don't think the termies will fit as they cannot keep up with the rest of your army. If you want to run termis, I think that you would need a more mech approach to your BA as they really need to run out of a land raider to be effective.

[Redfinger]

Those are some good thoughts, I totally agree that a terminator squad with the make up would be devistating, the problem is the delivery system, how do ou get those guys into position so they can do that damage? He LRC OR LRR lacks the long range punch needed to ensure a safe passage across the field, whereas a Storm Raven, or 2 could possibly put out enough long range damage to allow it to make across the board and deliver it's payload.

 

Additionaly I agree that terminators have no place in a jump army, if my original post came across that way I am sorry, I am just looking for an alternate list to use in place of my jumper list.

 

Ashton

[MaleOpener]

People just need to get the, "Oh, crap! Look at all those jump packs! " thing out of their system.

 

Seriously, though, there's no reason to not include assault termies.

 

I'm playtesting my idea of tanks on the board with JP squads either deep striking or starting on the board. I'm keeping Predators as cheap ( but useful ) as I can, and hopefully its enough threat so keep my LR from being blown to bits.

 

You cold also just deep strike them within a JP list.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Terminators are still very strong, but to maximise their potential, they need, as pointed out, FC and Unleash Rage, wich comes at about +200-ish points, add this to an already 450 pts. unit and you got your reason - they are freaking expensive! To be fair, they are also very devastating on the turn they hit. And the Landraider you need to carry that unit is also a fortress for itself, but I think that the reason why Terminators are not used that often is that BA can do a lot of other stuff and still be viable, not only C:SM stuff like Terms+Crusader+any IC.

 

 

And I don´t think Mech BA are the most competitive build. It´s just an adaption from C:SM with faster vehicles. Nothing else. I just can´t see why smaller squads are better than bigger ones with JP. But this does not belong into this thread, actually.

 

 

Snorri

[breng77]

I think the reason why the MSU mech army is considered (it is not definitle) the most competitive build is that in theory more squads are better than less squads, not smaller squads being better than bigger squads. Obviously, a bigger unit will beat up on a smaller unit 1 on 1, the difference is that your bigger unit can only kill 1 unit in shooting, or possibly 2-3 in assault (if you are lucky enough to manage a multi assault several units) per turn, where as if I have 5 units for every one of yours I can shoot/ assault 5 times as many things as you can. In addition if your large unit is destroyed it hurts your army more than any one unit of mine. All that said if you are running a jump pack list bigger squads are probably better due to durablility. I do agree that one of the reasons we don't see that many BA termis is that they are worse than C:SM termis (they pay for SS) unless you are running them with a priest or Libby, which add additional expense, given that with so many other interesting units termis can fall by the wayside.

 

to address the Storm raven delivery. While possible, the issue with that is that you are limited to 1 IC (in termi armor) in the storm raven as it can only cary 6 termis.

[Redfinger]

I think the reason why the MSU mech army is considered (it is not definitle) the most competitive build is that in theory more squads are better than less squads, not smaller squads being better than bigger squads. Obviously, a bigger unit will beat up on a smaller unit 1 on 1, the difference is that your bigger unit can only kill 1 unit in shooting, or possibly 2-3 in assault (if you are lucky enough to manage a multi assault several units) per turn, where as if I have 5 units for every one of yours I can shoot/ assault 5 times as many things as you can. In addition if your large unit is destroyed it hurts your army more than any one unit of mine. All that said if you are running a jump pack list bigger squads are probably better due to durablility. I do agree that one of the reasons we don't see that many BA termis is that they are worse than C:SM termis (they pay for SS) unless you are running them with a priest or Libby, which add additional expense, given that with so many other interesting units termis can fall by the wayside.

 

to address the Storm raven delivery. While possible, the issue with that is that you are limited to 1 IC (in termi armor) in the storm raven as it can only cary 6 termis.

 

 

Ok, so let's apply a little bit of Steleks theroy here, instead of making a unit that does 90% well do 95% well, just add more 90%? I would go two priests for my IC and drop the chappy, still very resilliant.

 

Ashton

[breng77]

That would also keep the squads fairly cheap. Now you just need to work up a list that does something to detract from having everything shot at your storm ravens. (though if you wanted to be just silly, and fun you could stick a dread in each raven)

 

(if you wanted to go crazy you could run a 3rd raven with some death company and a death company dread, and run with no scoring units and just go for the jugular ;) )

[Aarkon]

Well I am testing out the terminators right now in my lists. For example, last tournament I took 10 Assault Terminators on foot with a priest. I was two points out of first place with this list but I also took Mephiston and Sanguinor.

 

I have another Tournament on the 9th of October I will be taking 20 Assault Terminators on foot lol. I like this list but it is over kill, but it is fun to toss around. I have 20 Feel no pain, furious assault terminators and Mephiston in the list. That gives my opponent a lot to worry about and usually leaves my troops alone in my play test games so far.

 

I think the one reason people would not take Terminators is just speed. When playing Blood Angels speed is the big thing that helps the army the most is our ability to re-deploy and move around and though I love running these big death buses, they are very slow and you have to be careful where you put the terminators as, unlike the rest of your army they can't usually get around the board quickly.

[lunchb0x]

My Fav killing anything on the table list...

 

Librarian + T.Armour + S.Shield

Priest + T.Armour + Power Weapon

Assault Terminators

3x t.Hammer/S.Shield

2x Lightning Claws

 

Teleport in.

[Brother Nathan]

im still working on a squad to acompany the spacehulk ones that wont just look like 2 awsome guys and a bunch of wannabees.... Too slow for my list though. and a raider doubles the cost of the squad. dont have a raider yet, and we dont have a model which puts me off the storm raven... Though if i was wanting to feild termies id go for the shooty ones as i can do assault fine as it is but could use some more dakka.

[Redo]

I think Terminators can do very well in a BA list, whilst negating the speed factor. One way is to put them in a Raider but the other way would be to use the Storm Raven (as someone already has suggested); This is one way to make a terminator Librarian viable and useful.

The key is not to go over the top and 'put all the eggs in one basket'. By this I mean just go Termies and Librarian; leave the priest somewhere else, giving FC to lesser troops who are more than likely engagin other smaller nasties who dish out normal wounds. Assault termies are better suited against harder targets and these tarets usually have attacks that negate the benefits of FNP, furthermore FC is of little benefit when you are armed with a Thunder Hammer. Yes Lightning Claws are benefited from FC as is the Librarian too but the re-roll to wounds from Unleash Rage already make a very tough unit.

 

On another side note; if you use the termie Librarian in a transport it drastically increases the effect of the Shield of Sang. power which can be used to provide cover for the transport itself (benefit for the termies there) and quiet a few units nearby.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

The Stormraven doesn't say it can carry terminators, where did the idea that they could come from?

Have I just missed something?

[shatter]

pg 61

3rd paragraph

 

edit:

under terminator armour

 

oops

[BOBMAKENZIE]

As a lucifer assault force player. I am very much pro land raider and pro assault terminators. they provide an excellent hammer unit and Crusaders put out a comparable amount of fire power to a tac squad but on the move. Meltaguns will take the land raiders down but they dont do it as easy as everyone seems to think when you actually protect your tanks.

[dekyr]

I am wondering if people have seen that Sanguinary guard would be just as effective as assault terminators and cheaper. If you totally deck them out, sanguinary guard can all take powerfists and chapter banner for 280 pts. If you add a priest and Libby for that 200ish pts, you get a squad that is just as effective and possibly more so as you are giving the Priest and Libby more attacks with the Banner.

 

i know there is a stigma around the SG for being an expensive JP unit. The appeal of the assault termies is that most people drop them into a LR/LRC to move them around the board. Also you found a way to get a LRC on the board. An expensive cost for mobility.

 

I don't condem the usage of assault termies but in a fast assault army like BA maybe the SG is a better choice.

 

Thoughts?

[Aarkon]

I am wondering if people have seen that Sanguinary guard would be just as effective as assault terminators and cheaper. If you totally deck them out, sanguinary guard can all take powerfists and chapter banner for 280 pts. If you add a priest and Libby for that 200ish pts, you get a squad that is just as effective and possibly more so as you are giving the Priest and Libby more attacks with the Banner.

 

i know there is a stigma around the SG for being an expensive JP unit. The appeal of the assault termies is that most people drop them into a LR/LRC to move them around the board. Also you found a way to get a LRC on the board. An expensive cost for mobility.

 

I don't condem the usage of assault termies but in a fast assault army like BA maybe the SG is a better choice.

 

Thoughts?

 

Demolisher Cannon hitting your Terminators means you get a 3++ save, SG are wiped off the table. This is usually why I would choose the Terminators. The last game I played was against Guard, I reserved everything and on turn 2 only my one squad of Terminators showed up and took 1850 points of Guard shooting and I lost 3 Termines, this just will not happen with deep striking SG. Plus you can get 10 Termies vs only having 5 SG.

[dekyr]

I think that proves my point is that you are paying the cost of that survivability with the assault termies. I think really that is what this debate comes down to does it not. The reason you don't see many assault termies is due to high cost.

[Leardinal]

I love Assault Terminators and the LRC. I have been trying to work a 6 man squad with a priest and Librarian into my list forever, and if failing 60pts I go for the storm raven with 5 Termies and one of the IC's. Unfortunately for me, I also like bike squads led by a Reclusiarch, and normally this means I have far less points to spend on troops then I would like.

 

I haven't fielded them since I played a 2000pts game against Tau, watched their raven get blown first turn up by broadsides, and they then spent 3 turns trying to get to the enemies lines. This doesn't mean I have given up on them: I watched with pride as they waded through 3 turns of broadside rail guns with out losing a single member until they and my DC where my last two units, and they where finally taken down by having the entire tau force shoot everything they had left at the Termies.

 

They make excellent fire magnets and, unlike the DC, are tough enough to simply shrug off anything short of a vortex grenade. I think they are well worth their points even if they don't smash anything.

 

Edit: spelling

[lunchb0x]

StormRaven W. Locator

 

Terminators W. Priest

 

Furioso

 

Assault Squad W. Libby deep strike in on the Locator, while dread and terminators jump out.

 

Murder. Murder. Murder.

 

 

?

[igotsmeakabob!!]

pg 61

3rd paragraph

 

edit:

under terminator armour

 

oops

@Shatter:

 

Ahhhhh! Awesome! Thanks for pointing that out!

[Brother_Kluft]

I usually Rock the following unit

 

TH/SS Termies x 5

LRC w MMelta

Sang priest

Libby (unleash rage and shield)

 

THE AOE boost to the priest and libby shield makes the LR worth it just by itself. As the core of a mechanized force its astounding. A LR With a cover save is the hardest thing to kill in the game.

 

STR8 power weapons, 2+ armor, 3++ invul, FNP, Furious charge, Preferred enemy. IF a unit came out in a new codex with those numbers there would be mass calls of cheese!

[breng77]

THE AOE boost to the priest and libby shield makes the LR worth it just by itself. As the core of a mechanized force its astounding. A LR With a cover save is the hardest thing to kill in the game.

 

Point made, but A LR with a 5+ cover save is by no means the hardest thing to kill in the game. (its up there certainly) But I would still go Necron monolith since ST 8 can never kill it (which it can eventually kill a LR) Melta needs a 6 to glance and 6 again to destroy, lance weapons don't work, only against ST 9 and 10 weapons would the LR actually be more durable.

 

That said I still like the termis, better than Sanguinarly guard, due to the invul save.

[Redfinger]

Time to bring this discussion back to life a bit....I still feel like I am trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.....

 

Anyway I got to talking to some of the chaps at my LHS and we were talking about effective uses of assault termies in a foot slogging BA army. The idea applies the principle of bubble wrap, using SS/Th termies to set up a bubble around some squads of RAS w/ Mephiston or something accompyning them...support the troops w/ autocannon dreads, dakka preds and baal's...that would give your troops a 3+inv shiled walkinginfornt of them..it gives your opponents some very tough choices to make...should I get into it w/ 3+inv termies, or Mephiston and his boys....plus they would have to deal w/ 2 baals laying down the assault cannon shots and the dakka fire from all of those auto cannons, I would need to crunch the numbers a bit to what type of list I could come up with but I see that it might work....The army would be slow, i dont recall if assault termies can run or not, but that is ok, the idea is the 3+ saves from the SS and then the counter charge by Mephiston...

 

thoughts or ideas? We had some good points being made there for a while.

 

Ashton

[Zeller]

Why isn't it popular?

 

Price of the TDA and obligatory transport. For this cost you could have DC among many other things which in the long run offer greater flexibility.

 

How would it work?

 

Mechanized army. Either LR's or a healthy mix of rhinos and land raiders.

 

How else could it work?

 

A ballsy move of deep strike. For example, deepstrike one level below an enemy squad in a ruin. Fritz uses this strategy and has had surprisingly good results when things work and obiously not as great results when mishap.