Vehicles and moving

[Seahawk]

This has cropped up lately in our group as an effective vehicle trap. Bear with me at the moment because I don't have me books on hand, but tonight I'll quote and page and stuff.

 

So, Vehicles cannot move within 1" of an enemy (standard book rule, unless I'm missing something). However, tanks may Tank Shock. If a vehicle is surrounded on three sides by enemies that are all 1" away, can it only move in a single direction? Pic:

 

 

OOOOOOO

O..[====]

O..[====]

OOOOOOO

 

 

Vehicle Facing: ->

 

Scenario 1

Since the vehicle is facing to the right, and there is no room to pivot (as otherwise it gets within 1" of an enemy, which it can't yet do), is it forced to move straight ahead? It can't back up into the unit as it's not a Tank and it's not assaulting.

 

Scenario 2

If the unit is a Tank, does it suffer the same fate as a regular vehicle, or is it allowed to hit or get within 1" the unit via pivoting and then make an official Tank Shock by driving through them? Tanks cannot Tank Shock backwards, correct?

 

Scenario 3 (repeat, kinda)

If dudes (from two different units) line up along its flanks and leaves the two ends open, is it forced to only drive forward or backward?

 

 

We've been inclined to say it's trapped and can only go in the one direction, as that's what our findings in the rules support. What do you think?

[thade]

If it's not a tank, you're correct: it can only move in one direction.

 

If it is a tank, it can tank shock out.

 

Can't tank shock backwards; I don't have the book on me, but I'm pretty sure it says you have to "turn to face your target" then drive straight into them.

[SeattleDV8]

I would argee also.

Tanks may only Tank shock forward BRB pg. 68 "....move the vehicle straight forward....."

[Isiah]

Can't tank shock backwards; I don't have the book on me, but I'm pretty sure it says you have to "turn to face your target" then drive straight into them.

 

Yep it says when wanting to tank shock that you must:

 

[...] first turn the vehicle on the spot in the direction you intend to move [..]. [p68]

 

Although the above doesn't explicitly state that it's the front of the vehicle that must be aimed ;), further on it does say the vehicle moves "straight forward" and "the vehicle moves straight ahead".

 

So no reverse tanks shocking.

 

[beaten to it by SeattleDV8]

[thade]

Well this still bears some thought (it's been on my mind since I posted).

 

When you move, you can turn the vehicle as you move it...this will seem *extremely* nit-picky (it is, sorry), but...does the vehicle actually occupy the space it turns through? Or does it just magic-pop Hey it's facing another direction now! and continue to move. If it does insta-turn (without occupying intervening spaces) then this is a non-issue: it would never have to tank shock backwards because it can always face itself without "bumping" into models (or breaking the 1" rule). It's true a model can't move *through* a space it doesn't fit in, but insofar as turning, that's a free part of movement. What exactly is "free" about it?

 

I'm pretty sure this is bullocks, and I would neither allow myself nor someone else to do it...actually I take it back. If the tank starts spinning, the troops around it would VERY likely step back at least a bit Not sure if this makes sense to anyone other than me.

[Seahawk]

I can totally picture what you're saying thade. I'll see if I can find anything.

 

[searching...]

 

So turning, for a vehicle, does two specific things: it doesn't reduce the vehicle's move, and it doesn't count as moving. Soooo......maybe you're right? But then that might be a bit sticky as you said. The only change is that it could now be 180 degrees the opposite way and Tank Shock that way instead, but not to either of its previous flanks as it'd be ending on top of a model before the TS happens.

 

Disembarking is a magic-pop move, so maybe this is too? I don't think I'd try to play it though without any supporting info.

[Grey Mage]

I would say that the initial pivot is still part of the tank shock, and so the unit surrounding it would have to test as normal, and possibly run or do a death or glory.

[ShinyRhino]

Locally, we've always played it that if you cannot pivot, you cannot Tank Shock. The owrding of the rule makes the pivot sound like a prerequisite/lead-in to the actual Tank Shock move. /shrug

[thade]

I would say that the initial pivot is still part of the tank shock, and so the unit surrounding it would have to test as normal, and possibly run or do a death or glory.

 

I definitely agree with you, GM. The rules seem to support it too, now that I'm examining it closely.

 

The tank shock move = one spin + a straight move toward the proclaimed target. Proclaim the target to be behind your tank. The tank begins to move and spins...and in this way can effectively tank shock multiple units that may be surrounding it. This isn't weird, as it can - as it moves in a straight line - tank shock multiple units anyway. It also makes sense...the tank you're poking at starts spinning, you are going to likely step back.

[Seahawk]

"Note that because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving, this is not enough for a tank shock." p 68

Sorry chaps! Bottom left paragraph.

 

Even if that line wasn't there, you must stop moving the vehicle the second it comes into contact with an enemy unit; thus, you would pivot once and hit a unit, then have to go straight forward as no other changes of direction are allowed. So you could *maybe* change your diection by 20-30 degrees, tops.

 

@ thade - after further discussion with my minions we've concluded that pivoting, while not counting as movement, still requires you to physically turn the model, grinding over the places it takes up as it does so. So no magic pop twist.

[dswanick]

I would say that the initial pivot is still part of the tank shock, and so the unit surrounding it would have to test as normal, and possibly run or do a death or glory.

I'm in agreement with Grey MAge on this one.

second paragraph - When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally. This is an exception to the rule that enemy models cannot be moved through.

 

fourth paragraph - To make this kind of attack, first turn the vehicle on the spot in the direction you intend to move it and declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move. The vehicle must move at least at combat speed.

The fourth paragraph makes it clear that the pivot is part of the Tank Shock attack, and the second paragraph specifies that a Tank Shock overrides the normal movement rules preventing movement by the tank within 1" of enemy models.

[thade]

"Note that because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving, this is not enough for a tank shock." p 68

Sorry chaps! Bottom left paragraph.

Seems cut and dry to me; so much for that. Pretty silly tho. ^_^

@ thade - after further discussion with my minions we've concluded that pivoting, while not counting as movement, still requires you to physically turn the model, grinding over the places it takes up as it does so. So no magic pop twist.

While I agree with you (and play it that way), I haven't found anything in the rules that makes this a sure-thing. Who are these minions, anyway? If you've been pocketing GW employees, we'd like to know. @_@

[dswanick]

"Note that because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving, this is not enough for a tank shock." p 68

Sorry chaps! Bottom left paragraph.

Which does not prevent you from declaring a pivot and 6" movement as your Tank Shock movement.

Even if that line wasn't there, you must stop moving the vehicle the second it comes into contact with an enemy unit; thus, you would pivot once and hit a unit, then have to go straight forward as no other changes of direction are allowed. So you could *maybe* change your diection by 20-30 degrees, tops.

You only stop moving the vehicle if the contacted unit declares a Death or Glory response and stuns, immobilizes, or destroys the vehicle.

second paragraph - If the model successfully manages to stun, destroy, or immobilise it, the vehicle grinds to a halt directly in front of the heroic individual.

 

third paragraph - if the attack fails to stop the vehicle, then the tank shock continues as normal, except the brave glory seeker is crushed by the vehicle grinding over him

[ShinyRhino]

The rule Seahawk quoted delineates the difference between the picot, and the actual Tank Shock act. It's essentially telling you that you can only Tank Shock in a straight line. Step the first: pivot on the spot to line up your target. Step the second: hit the gas and try to run over someone.

The pivot =/= Tank Shock is there to reinforce the idea that you can't drive the vehicle around in an S-curve to tank shock several spread-out targets.

 

Let me put this scenario to you:

 

Your Rhino is surrounded on rear, left, and right sides by Grots, one rank deep. We'll say the Rhino is facing "north". You want to pivot the tank 90 degrees, and travel west. By attempting to pivot 90 degrees, you contact the Grot models. You have NOT Tank Shocked! Since the pivot movement is not allowed to force a Tank Shock reaction from the Grots, how did you Shock them? Your Rhino cannot magically hover over the top of the unit, and then drive over them. You cannot physically rotate the model in place in order to begin your 6" movement, so you cannot move west at all. You can only move north, because that is the only open avenue.

[dswanick]

The rule Seahawk quoted delineates the difference between the picot, and the actual Tank Shock act. It's essentially telling you that you can only Tank Shock in a straight line. Step the first: pivot on the spot to line up your target. Step the second: hit the gas and try to run over someone.

The pivot =/= Tank Shock is there to reinforce the idea that you can't drive the vehicle around in an S-curve to tank shock several spread-out targets.

 

Let me put this scenario to you:

 

Your Rhino is surrounded on rear, left, and right sides by Grots, one rank deep. We'll say the Rhino is facing "north". You want to pivot the tank 90 degrees, and travel west. By attempting to pivot 90 degrees, you contact the Grot models. You have NOT Tank Shocked! Since the pivot movement is not allowed to force a Tank Shock reaction from the Grots, how did you Shock them? Your Rhino cannot magically hover over the top of the unit, and then drive over them. You cannot physically rotate the model in place in order to begin your 6" movement, so you cannot move west at all. You can only move north, because that is the only open avenue.

Which is completely not RAW. RAW : the pivot is part of the Tank Shock action and therefore NOT constrained by 1" rule. If said models stop the Tank Shock via a Death or Glory clounter then the vehicle stops just prior to the model, otherwise it continues on its pivot and move. So long as the Tank Shock action is at least combat speed it is a legal Tank Shock by RAW, even if it is stopped prematurely by DoG.

[Seahawk]

You only stop moving the vehicle if the contacted unit declares a Death or Glory response and stuns, immobilizes, or destroys the vehicle.

Incorrect. You must pause moving as soon as you contact an enemy unit. This is stated on the top right of p 68. Then the unit makes its checks, and the vehicle continues on (or stops or is dead).

 

However, if you argue that you can pivot-TS, then you've just TS'd an enemy unit. Now that you have done so, you cannot make any other changes of direction; thus, you absolutely cannot pivot into one enemy unit, and continue to pivot to your target unit and then go forward, even if you could pivot TS (which you can't). That's how it's spelled out in the book.

 

So, either you can't do anything as already described; or,

 

you pivot, ignoring the intervening enemy models (an impossibility as well), and only TS the first unit you drive straight forward into; or,

 

you pivot, TS the first unit you pivot into, and are forced to go straight forward from that point, thereby only TSing the one unit surrounding you.

 

(obviously in all cases you can drive straight forward into more than one unit, but we haven't gotten that far yet)

 

Stimulating discussion, gents! Keep it going!

[thade]

I'm gonna need my rulebook to weigh in any further, I fear; I swear you can tank shock more than one unit..you don't actually declare a target, you just move your tank and Shock! whoever happens to be in the way.

 

Above I said "proclaim a target"; now that I think on it, that's flat out wrong. Bad, thade. Bad.

[Seahawk]

Very true, and I pointed it out that you can TS multiple units; it's not a "targeted" thing, just an aimed one. Thoroughly read my last one and you should understand what I was trying to say :lol:.

[thade]

That's funny; I was like "cusss, I read it already." Then I read it again and well...I get it; interesting. :D

 

I do agree with you I think, but again...it seems silly to me. Only reeeaaally big infantry (re: terminators...maybe) could interfere bodily with a moving tank in my mind.

 

I'll check my rulebook as soon as I can and get back to you on this.

[thade]

Okay, it's my lunch break, so...If we focus on the Tank Shock rule alone with the thoughts outlined above, the tank pivots (this does not cause a Tank Shock) then moves forward (this does). It moves forward and stops as it Tank Shocks, and continues forward until it moves it's full distance, the controller decides to stop moving it (ie short of it's max move), or it falls prey to a successful Death or Glory attack. What about that pivot?!

 

Recall that rules in the BRB are written under the following high level organization:

- General rule (earlier in the book)

- Exceptions to General rules (later in the book)

- Special cases (assorted into either section); non-exhaustive. (The most annoying part.)

 

For instance, there is a chapter on Movement (general rules) and a chapter on Vehicle Movement (exceptions to rules), and in fact a special case: Tank Shock!

 

Hold on to your hats.

 

When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally. This is an exception to the rule that enemy models cannot be moved through.

 

The crux of the Tank Shock! rule. Just below...

 

To make this kind of attack, first turn the vehicle on the spot in the direction you intend to move it and declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move.

 

At this point, the tank shock has begun. No where does it say that "The tank shock begins when you start moving the vehicle forward"; it says, pretty plainly, that to tank shock, you first may pivot the vehicle.

 

Given this, it's pretty clear to me that intervening models neither stop the tank shock from taking place during a pivot, nor do they prevent the pivot from completing and force the tank shock early: again, this movement is part of Tank Shock! movement and is thus an exception to rules that would force that to happen. It looks to me like GM and I are right: you can spin it then charge forward, and that is all part of the Tank Shock! movement, which is - as plainly stated - an exception to the normal movement rules.

 

Make sense? I hope so...because again, I don't see a unit of IG Guardsmen seizing up a tank like that: you know that in the military tank pilots call infantry "crunchies". I bet you can guess why.

[dswanick]

Incorrect. You must pause moving as soon as you contact an enemy unit. This is stated on the top right of p 68. Then the unit makes its checks, and the vehicle continues on (or stops or is dead

You pause, only to resolve any Death or Glory attacks. After resolving any DoG attacks, you then continue your declared Tank Shock.

fifth paragraph - Once the vehicle has been 'aimed' and the speed declared, move the vehicle straight forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared - no other changes of direction are allowed during a tank shock. If no enemy unit is reached, just move the vehicle straight ahead for the distance declared and no special attack takes place.

 

sixth paragraph - If an enemy unit other than another vehicle IS reached (including any model in an artillery Unit), the unit must take a Morale check and will immediately fall back if it fails it . If the test is passed the unit will simply let the tank move through, as if it was not there. Regardless of the result of the test, the vehicle keeps moving straight on, possibly tank shocking more enemy units until it reaches its final position.

second paragraph - If the model successfully managed to stun, destroy, or immobilise it, the vehicle grinds to a halt directly in front of the heroic individual.

 

third paragraph - If the attack fails to stop the vehicle, then the tank shock continues as normal, except that the brave glory seeker is crushed by the vehicle grinding over him

However, if you argue that you can pivot-TS, then you've just TS'd an enemy unit. Now that you have done so, you cannot make any other changes of direction; thus, you absolutely cannot pivot into one enemy unit, and continue to pivot to your target unit and then go forward, even if you could pivot TS (which you can't).

That's how it's spelled out in the book. If you TS a unit which chooses to NOT DoG the vehicle the TS carries on as if the unit is not there (Pg.68, Pp.6). If you TS a unit which chooses DoG, the vehicle carries on unless the unit stops the vehicles (Pg.69, Pp.2&3)

So, either you can't do anything as already described; or, <--Incorrect by RAW quoted

 

you pivot, ignoring the intervening enemy models (an impossibility as well), <--This is correct per RAW.

 

and only TS the first unit you drive straight forward into; or,<--Incorrect by RAW quoted

 

you pivot, TS the first unit you pivot into, and are forced to go straight forward from that point, thereby only TSing the one unit surrounding you.<--Incorrect by RAW quoted

 

(obviously in all cases you can drive straight forward into more than one unit, but we haven't gotten that far yet)

 

Stimulating discussion, gents! Keep it going!

 

@thade - I will generally agree with what you posted. I only think that the pivoting portion causing a Tank Shock is not unreasonable, so long as it is part of a valid tank shock (ie. pivot + straight combat speed move).

[Seahawk]

That's how it's spelled out in the book. If you TS a unit which chooses to NOT DoG the vehicle the TS carries on as if the unit is not there

Yes, BUT once you contact a unit with a TS, you cannot turn any more (this is what I'm saying). What you're saying is that you can continue to pivot; this is wrong.

 

If you pivot TS a unit, you have contacted them, yes?

Once you contact an enemy unit, you cannot change direction, yes?

 

So...how do you keep pivoting then?

[dswanick]

That's how it's spelled out in the book. If you TS a unit which chooses to NOT DoG the vehicle the TS carries on as if the unit is not there

Yes, BUT once you contact a unit with a TS, you cannot turn any more (this is what I'm saying). What you're saying is that you can continue to pivot; this is wrong.

 

If you pivot TS a unit, you have contacted them, yes?

Once you contact an enemy unit, you cannot change direction, yes?

 

So...how do you keep pivoting then?

No you pivot to your final direction of travel, ignoring the "normal movement" 1" rule for enemy models. You then declare your movement speed, and begin the Tank Shock leadership tests and DoG responses. The unit you are pivoting over is the first unit "contacted" plus all units contacted by the X" movement.

[ShinyRhino]

I just can't see how you're justifying being able to pivot the tank model through intervening infantry models, and then make an accurate measurement for the Tank Shock move.

If the pivot and move are one, inserparable procedure, then you cannot actually Tank Shock a unit that you pivoted into, since the pivot will not provoke a Tank Shock reaction no matter if you drive over those models or not. As soon as you pivot into them, you've cancelled your TS of that unit by virtue of pivots being inseparable from the movement.

[thade]

I feel like the past several posters here all could have benefited from reading my most recent post carefully. :D