Vehicles and moving

[ShinyRhino]

Okay, it's my lunch break, so...If we focus on the Tank Shock rule alone with the thoughts outlined above, the tank pivots (this does not cause a Tank Shock) then moves forward (this does). It moves forward and stops as it Tank Shocks, and continues forward until it moves it's full distance, the controller decides to stop moving it (ie short of it's max move), or it falls prey to a successful Death or Glory attack. What about that pivot?!

 

Recall that rules in the BRB are written under the following high level organization:

- General rule (earlier in the book)

- Exceptions to General rules (later in the book)

- Special cases (assorted into either section); non-exhaustive. (The most annoying part.)

 

For instance, there is a chapter on Movement (general rules) and a chapter on Vehicle Movement (exceptions to rules), and in fact a special case: Tank Shock!

 

Hold on to your hats.

 

When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally. This is an exception to the rule that enemy models cannot be moved through.

 

The crux of the Tank Shock! rule. Just below...

 

To make this kind of attack, first turn the vehicle on the spot in the direction you intend to move it and declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move.

 

At this point, the tank shock has begun. No where does it say that "The tank shock begins when you start moving the vehicle forward"; it says, pretty plainly, that to tank shock, you first may pivot the vehicle.

 

Given this, it's pretty clear to me that intervening models neither stop the tank shock from taking place during a pivot, nor do they prevent the pivot from completing and force the tank shock early: again, this movement is part of Tank Shock! movement and is thus an exception to rules that would force that to happen. It looks to me like GM and I are right: you can spin it then charge forward, and that is all part of the Tank Shock! movement, which is - as plainly stated - an exception to the normal movement rules.

 

Make sense? I hope so...because again, I don't see a unit of IG Guardsmen seizing up a tank like that: you know that in the military tank pilots call infantry "crunchies". I bet you can guess why.

 

Except you completely ignored the final sentence of the last paragraph on the left column on p68..."Note that because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving, this is not enough for a tank shock."

 

Even if you CAN pivot through an infantry model, you just broke th egame by saying that your pivot through said infantry model kicks off a Tank Shock, when the rule clearly says you don't.

[dswanick]

I just can't see how you're justifying being able to pivot the tank model through intervening infantry models, and then make an accurate measurement for the Tank Shock move.

If the pivot and move are one, inserparable procedure, then you cannot actually Tank Shock a unit that you pivoted into, since the pivot will not provoke a Tank Shock reaction no matter if you drive over those models or not. As soon as you pivot into them, you've cancelled your TS of that unit by virtue of pivots being inseparable from the movement.

I'm really at a loss as to what you are trying to say here. I "justify" pivoting through a unit by virtue of the TS rule stating that the normal movement rules are suspended during a Tank Shock movement, so a Tank Shock can bring a tank within 1" of an enemy unit. The pivot itself doesn't provoke the Tank Shock, you can't declare a Tank Shock as a pivot only without forward movement. The fact that the (pivot + movement) Tank Shock movement causes the tank to contact the enemy unit, however, does. Please note : no one is saying Tank Shock = pivot only. The rule states that a pivot alone is not a valid Tank Shock.

I feel like the past several posters here all could have benefited from reading my most recent post carefully. :D

I did...I think you and I are saying the same thing, in different ways.

[Seahawk]

Oh I read it :D. It doesn't explain sufficiently for me though.

 

Sure, you can move over enemy units, but once you contact one (they are still there after all, despite being able to shove through them) the tank shock has begun and you cannot make any more turns. It doesn't matter which direction you choose to aim; if you're going to say the pivot is part of the overall tank shock move, you have to accept that once you contact an enemy unit (this includes pivoting into one) you must then move straight forward only, as that's what is written. Thus, you can only choose a direction along those lines. If the pivot is not part of the tank shock move, you cannot move within 1".

[ShinyRhino]

As further support that you pivot on the spot, and THEN move:

 

p68, left column, final paragraph:

"To make this kind of attack, first turn the vehicle on the spot in the direction you intend to move it and declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move. The vehicle must move at least combat speed. Note that because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving, this is not enough for a tank shock."

 

p68, right column, first paragraph"

"Once the vehicle has been 'aimed' and the speed declared, move the vehicle stright forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared - no other changes of direction are allowed during a tank shock..."

 

These two paragraphs indicate that Tank Shock is a multi-part process. FIRST pivot and declare distrance. ONCE that is done, move the vehicle. Because of the rule for pivoting, FIRST cannot trigger a TS reaction from a unit. Since it's not a Tank Shock, how can you use the Tank Shock provision for ignoring enemy models for movement?

[dswanick]

Oh I read it :D. It doesn't explain sufficiently for me though.

 

Sure, you can move over enemy units, but once you contact one (they are still there after all, despite being able to shove through them) the tank shock has begun and you cannot make any more turns. It doesn't matter which direction you choose to aim; if you're going to say the pivot is part of the overall tank shock move, you have to accept that once you contact an enemy unit (this includes pivoting into one) you must then move straight forward only, as that's what is written. Thus, you can only choose a direction along those lines. If the pivot is not part of the tank shock move, you cannot move within 1".

No, it only works that way if you take the sentences out of order.

fifth paragraph - Once the vehicle has been 'aimed' and the speed declared, move the vehicle straight forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared - no other changes of direction are allowed during a tank shock.

You 'aim' the vehicle, that's your pivot. The pivot portion of the Tank Shock move completes when you 'aim' it in the direction you want to go and then declare the movement speed. Then you start testing for enemy contact, after the vehicle is 'aimed' using the pivot and the range is declared. Once you start testing for contact is when you may find your Tank Shock stopped short and you are not allowed any other pivots. In the mean time, it's all part of the Tank Shock so you ignore the prohibitions on moving into enemy models, including during the pivot portion of the Tank Shock.

 

When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally. This is an exception to the rule that enemy models cannot be moved through.

 

To make this kind of attack, first turn the vehicle on the spot in the direction you intend to move it and declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move.

Man, I'm getting tired of quoting these same sentences.

[thade]

Even if you CAN pivot through an infantry model, you just broke th egame by saying that your pivot through said infantry model kicks off a Tank Shock, when the rule clearly says you don't.

 

I don't feel I broke the game; it's totally okay. By your very wording there, it's not enough for a tank shock? That's okay. The tank is going to move forward after the pivot, so then...it is enough for the tank shock, no?

 

Have you ever stood next to a tank when it's decided it wants to turn around before? (Not related, perhaps.)

[ShinyRhino]

Here's some pictures to illustrate the problem I have:

 

Here's the starting position of a Rhino, surrounded by an enemy unit. For brevity's sake, the front of the Rhino is facing the top of your screen.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z43/goalie20/TS1.jpg

 

The Rhino wants to Tank Shock to the left, 6". Using the rules, FIRST it must pivot AND declare distance. As the rules state, the pivot move is NOT a tank shock. If you were to pivot 90 degrees, you end up with this:

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z43/goalie20/TS2.jpg

 

The X's indicate all of the models you're now magically "floating" over. Tank Shocking requires a pivot+distance declaration (aka AIMING), THEN movement of the tank FORWARD. One must be performed before the other. How, do you resolve this situation above , since the Rhino has not Tank Shocked the unit, but has moved through it?

 

The idea we're trying to put home here is that the tank must stop as soon as it makes contact with an enemy model during the pivot, because TS is a two-step process. it looks like this:

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z43/goalie20/TS3.jpg

 

The tank wishes to rotate to the left, but must stop as soon as it contacts the model inside the ywllow circle, because of the two-part process. Tanks cannot be magically held in the air over the top of the squad, unless they're a skimmer on an appropriately tall flying base. Even then, the legal base of th emodel is still in a legal position.

[thade]

I dont' see that as an issue, because whenever I've Tank Shocked or seen a Tank Shock, the tank is in fact held aloft over the models below them while they are moved out of the way/morale checks are rolled/etc (so that the movement range is maintained). It's really not a big deal.

 

Massive metal vehicle. Little bitty guys with legs. "Crunchies." =)

[ShinyRhino]

The problem arises because the pivot is not a Tank Shock. You cannot come into contact with an enemy unit until the 'aiming' procedure is complete.

[ShinyRhino]

I think I've discovered the answer:

 

On p63, there is the "Successive turns" section. This section deals with assaulting a vehicle in close combat. It says:

 

If the vehicle pivots on the spot (to shoot at its attackers, for example), move these models out of the way as you shift the vehicle and then place them back into base contact with the vehicle."

 

So, if a vehicle that was assaulted and has models in BASE CONTACT, it can move those models out of the way during its pivot, and cause them to be replaced in B2B after it has completed its pivot. It can then Tank Shock that unit by driving at least 1" into them!

 

So, that situation seems resolved. The only one that ISN'T resolved is what happens if the vehicle is surrounded by a unit that is NOT in B2B, but is at least 1" away.

[dswanick]

No, just no. You continue to IGNORE that the rule specifies that Tank Shock isn't limited by the "normal movement" rule about units and models moving thorugh each other. And you continue to ignore that the Tank Shock rule says you first pivot the vehicle in the direction you want the Tank Shock to go. The pivot CAN cause the vehicle to move through the unit. I've posted that quote At LEAST twice.

[thade]

I'm pretty firmly settled on "crunchies"; that a pivot is not "enough" for a tank shock does not in my mind preclude them from pivoting - regardless of the surrounding models - so long as they complete the tank shock as prescribed in that section. The declare the direction and distance. They pivot. They move forward. That's "enough" for a tank shock.

 

Given that, I think any model(s) that get in the way are subject to the TAnk Shock consequences; that includes the ability to DoG...but they still gotta get outta the way or get rolled over by a tank...and thus become a "crunchie."

[Grey Mage]

Ok.... so.

 

1) 'Note that because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving it is not enough for a tank shock'.

 

Please not, this is when you are declaring how far your intending to move- You CANNOT declare 0" so you cannot merely pivot. A Pivot CAN however be part of the larger tank shock move, but must be done at the begining.

 

2) Once you hit enemies you stop.

 

This is true, and you then resolve what happens to them- they step out of the way, run away, or death or glory as normal. You then continue moving- I would argue you continue pivoting int his case until youve reached the spot were forward momentum will begin.

 

3) You cannot contact enemy models until the pivot is complete.

 

No. Being able to move through enemy models is the first thing that changes after you declare your tank shocking. Literally, its the very next sentence in the rules after 'by the way, you can tank shock if you so choose'. I see nothing in the explanation that states the pivot isnt part of the tank shock, merely that pivoting cannot be the entirety of a tank shock.

[Isiah]

I certainly don't think you can pivot your vehicle over enemy models first when aiming your TS attack.

 

You continue to IGNORE that the rule specifies that Tank Shock isn't limited by the "normal movement" rule about units and models moving thorugh each other.

I think the section you are referring to dswanick is alluding to the explanation in a game sense to the final act of TS the 'attack' itself (i.e. the attempt to roll over the enemy at speed) as being totally unique compared with the normal 1" proximity rule. It does not allude to the act of pivoting on the spot first.

 

And you continue to ignore that the Tank Shock rule says you first pivot the vehicle in the direction you want the Tank Shock to go. The pivot CAN cause the vehicle to move through the unit.

I don't see how it can given basic game rules. The only time this vehicle can be moved within 1" of an enemy model is during it's forward attack rush.

 

The act of pivoting first is not the Tank Shock 'attack' itself – though obviously it's part of the Tank Shock process – and during the pivot normal model proximity rules would apply.

 

The only time they don't apply is on your move forwards – i.e. the actual 'attack' part.

[dswanick]

Fine, you guys win. Your 30 ton tank can be prevented from moving by a 2 year old Tau child putting her pinky finger on it's track skirt. I'll keep playing it the way the rules say to.

It amazes me that for one shinning moment GW actually published a rule where RAW=RAI=common sense dictates, and people misread/misinterpret/butcher it just to game the rules so it gives them an advantage.

 

"Debating on the the internet is like competing in the special olympics..." - I'm out.

[Grey Mage]

dswanick, getting huffy about it wont help the case man.

 

Isiah: can you give me a rules quote stating that the pivot is not part of the tank shock. You yourself have even said its part of the procedure. I would argue, that because of how the rules are written the ability to move within 1" is part of the entire process of tank shocking... it is after all the very first rule after 'you declared a tank shock'.

[Isiah]

dswanick, getting huffy about it wont help the case man.

 

Isiah: can you give me a rules quote stating that the pivot is not part of the tank shock. You yourself have even said its part of the procedure. I would argue, that because of how the rules are written the ability to move within 1" is part of the entire process of tank shocking... it is after all the very first rule after 'you declared a tank shock'.

 

There aren't any rules specifically stating the pivot isn't part of tank shock - because it is. The point I'm making is that the attack itself (i.e. where one is allowed to move within 1" of an enemy model) is the bit conducted after one has pivoted and moved forwards.

[Grey Mage]

dswanick, getting huffy about it wont help the case man.

 

Isiah: can you give me a rules quote stating that the pivot is not part of the tank shock. You yourself have even said its part of the procedure. I would argue, that because of how the rules are written the ability to move within 1" is part of the entire process of tank shocking... it is after all the very first rule after 'you declared a tank shock'.

 

There aren't any rules specifically stating the pivot isn't part of tank shock - because it is. The point I'm making is that the attack itself (i.e. where one is allowed to move within 1" of an enemy model) is the bit conducted after one has pivoted and moved forwards.

And Im saying that looking at the rulebook it doesnt say theres any seperation.

 

The rules state you can move through enemy models during a tank shock, that this is an exception to the 1" rule.

 

Then the rules state as part of the tank shock you may pivot on the spot.

 

Wherein is the part where you cant be within 1" of the enemy during the pivot? Pivoting the vehicle is a form movement- it has a total value of 0", but it is movement. So you are 'moving through' the enemy models, as the rules for tank shocking explicitly allow.

 

Whats the problem?

 

The rules themselves dont state anywhere that your only tank shocking after the pivot. There is no 'attack portion' of a tank shock. The whole thing is an attack.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

On page 63 of the BRB under Successive turns it states that if a vehicle pivots the models are moved out of the way and then replaced after the pivot has been completed.

 

The player controlling the squad can just place them so they are not in line with the tank's movement, hence no tank shock in that case.

 

If the squad in question was 1" away and so the pivot (which is not enough for tank shock) causes the tank to be occupying the space that the squad was in then the models would probably just be ignored as the tank must "move forward until it comes into contact with an enemy unit..." (BRB pg 68). If the pivot lands you on top of a unit, you technically can't "move forward into contact" with those models.

 

Does any of this help?

[Grey Mage]

Thats not true.

 

Because units consist of multiple models it is possible to be in contact with a unit AND moving into contact with a unit at the same time.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Because units consist of multiple models it is possible to be in contact with a unit AND moving into contact with a unit at the same time.

 

Yes, and IF the tank ends up moving into contact the the unit during its forward move then a tank shock would occur. It just means that smaller units would find it easier to avoid being shocked than larger mobs...which is realistic. 5 guys can dodge a tank easier than 30.

 

I'm just saying that the models touched during the pivot should be ignored, with only the ones that are actually getting charged being a factor.

 

A tank suddenly turning would definitely be startling, but not "flee the battlefield" startling.

 

A tank that suddenly turns and drives away, also not so scary.

 

A tank that suddenly turns and then still manages to catch your buddy in its headlights, now that could be considered "shocking".

[Grey Mage]

I can understand that interpretation, and agree with it to an extent.... but I also dont see how it changes the models being ignored for the purposes of the vehicles movement.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z43/goalie20/TS2.jpg

 

What I'm saying is just ignore the X'd out models during the pivot.

 

In the above case no tank shock would occur because no models are "contacted" during the forward move.

 

Now if there had of been a second rank of models (or more of the squad to the left side) who were contacted during the forward move, then a tankshock would occur.

 

Basically, the tank has no effect on the squad's morale (during the pivot) and the squad has no effect on the tank's movement (also during the pivot).

[Grey Mage]

I think that is a logical and agreeable interpretation.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Thanks! <_<

 

I hope that other people see it that way too.