Need help with an 1500pt Rapid DS assault

[Br0ther Rafen]

Hi all

i need some help making an 1500pt army of vanillia marines to use against other SM armies in friendly games.

Theme is a massive DS assault, with some units airdropped in before hand.

Here is what I have:

 

HQ

Pedro Kantor 175 1385

 

Elites

x5 Sterngaurd unit w/ CombiMelta and fist DP 190pt

x5 Sterngaurd unit w/ HF and CCW 170pt

x5 Tac Termies w/ HF 205pt

 

Troops

x10 Tactical Squad w/ ML, PG 180pt

x5 Tac Squad w/ flamer, Teleport Homer MB DP 145pt

x5 Tac Squad w/ MG, Teleport Homer DP 145pt

x10 Tac Squad w/ ML, MG 175pt

 

Heavy Support

Vindicator 115pt

Total: 1500pt

 

I would appreciate any tips on how to improve this army would be great.

PS i am not very good at making good lists so any criticism would be appreciated.

[thade]

You're going to have a hard time with this list, especially if you're new. You have zero mobility. Your Drop Pods come in, bam...and you're stuck foot-slogging while your mobilized opponent drives circles around you, ranges you, and whittles you down. It can be done, but it'll be challenging for you.

 

That said, I like how many tacticals you have; I would personally mount most of them in Rhinos, even if the others do have Drop Pods. Mobility is vital to 5th ed.

[Icechiang]

You can't give any weapons to a 5 man tactical squad, unless I am reading your list wrong and those two 5 man squads are really one squad that has been combat squadded. Also, I am not a fan of the vindicator to be honest, just doesn't perform well for me. I agree with thade, some rhinos would help out alot. Drop pods are awesome and I love them, but by themselves they fall fast. Also, the heavy flamer on the sternguards might not be a good idea. Sternguards are awesome with bolters and special ammo and the heavy flamer might be too close for comfort. I would instead put a few combi flamers instead.

[ShinyRhino]

I'll give what feedback I can:

 

HQ

Pedro Kantor 175 1385

 

Pedro is a strange beast of a Marine HQ unit. He boosts the abilities of all the Marines around him, but is actually pretty weak in close combat himself. He doesn't typically last through a fight with a power-weapon wielding opponent. Getting him stick in is a very risky proposition. He's not actually all that wonderful in a pod army, because his radius of power is only 12". If he deploys via pod, he's often all on his own with his squad, and buffs no one else. If you leave him in the gunline, he's not buffing the most powerful units in the army that arrived via pod. Kind of a Catch-22. You might actually be better served with a basic Captain.

 

Elites

x5 Sterngaurd unit w/ CombiMelta and fist DP 190pt

x5 Sterngaurd unit w/ HF and CCW 170pt

x5 Tac Termies w/ HF 205pt

 

You might want both Sternguard in pods, with the way you've armed them. A single combimelta isn't reliable enough to kill a tank. You want redundancy here, in the form of at least two more combimeltas.

The heavy flamer squad is actually quite good for pod-drops, since you can drop the pod very close to the enemy and not worry about deepstrike mishaps. I'd consider a power weaponon the sergeant, as the heavy flamer won't reliably kill full units of Marines, and you'll end up charged by the squad you shot./flamed. The power weapon allows your 5-man squad to get all their attacks in at I4. A powerfist doesn't have enough meatshields in front of it to reliably get its swings in at I1, since all the Marines attacking you will go at I4. One failed 3+ armor save, and your sergeant is down before he can attack.

Looks like you're planning to drop those Terminators in as a rescue squad via teleport homers, which makes the heavy flamer useful. You might want tolook at the locator beacons on pods instead of the teleport homers, though. 5-man tac squads go down fast, and if the sergeant dies, there goes your teleport homer.

 

Troops

x10 Tactical Squad w/ ML, PG 180pt

x5 Tac Squad w/ flamer, Teleport Homer MB DP 145pt

x5 Tac Squad w/ MG, Teleport Homer DP 145pt

x10 Tac Squad w/ ML, MG 175pt

 

The two 5-man squads aren't legal. The only model who can be upgraded in a 5-man tactical is the sergeant. That may radically alter how you choose to deploy these squads. 5-man squads with no upgrades beyond sergeant weapons do not survive close contact with the enemy all that well.

 

Heavy Support

Vindicator 115pt

Total: 1500pt

 

The trouble with the Vindicator is that it has a 24" range, and soft side armor. There's a lot of stuff in the Marine arsenal that can make short work of a Vindicator that's force tomove forward to get to range. Most folks mitigate that by taking a couple Rhinos and using them as flank guards for the Vindicator. That way you at least get a 4+ cover save at shots against your sides. Otherwise, your Vindicator is forced to sit still to protect itself, and it won't threaten much.

[thade]

The two 5-man squads aren't legal. The only model who can be upgraded in a 5-man tactical is the sergeant. That may radically alter how you choose to deploy these squads. 5-man squads with no upgrades beyond sergeant weapons do not survive close contact with the enemy all that well.

 

You can combat squad to get a similar load outs (but you'd have to take one heavy spec weap instead of two mobile special weaps), or if drop Pedro and run Space Wolves I think those are actually legal load-outs.

[Grey Mage]

Space Wolves would have similar, and legal loadouts.

 

The downsides: No sterngaurd. No beacons on your DPs. Those 10 man squads couldnt have MLs.

 

Also, no offense- but dont bring a vindicator to a DPing force. Your literally placing your forces 2" away from the enemy, and you want to drop one of the most devastating large blast templates known to an astartes next to them while their bunched up like that? You really think you wont deny yourself several turns of shooting if you decide not to risk it?

[Br0ther Rafen]

okay, what about changing pedro for a captain to keep in the gunline, drop the 5x DP marines and make a 10x unit with a ML? i know that it isn't a very mobile army becuase i was thinking that i have the non-DP marines in a static defense, while i have sternguard capture heir home objective. Of course, if i take Pedro out then that is pretty much pointless....

Not sure, mabye do as you suggested and ad more rhino's, but drop sternguard altogerther with pedro to have a commander, and 2 termie units to draw their fire while 1 or 2 units rush their objective? i would like to stay around the theme but i don't mind doing something different.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

HQ

...so any criticism would be appreciated....

ok..here...

Pedro Kantor

espi libby with gate and Null zone

x10 Stern gaurd unit w/PF HFLx2 Pod

x10 Stern guard squad w/PF HFLx2 Pod

x10 Tactical Squad w/PF+Cmg+Mg+ML pod

x10 Tactical Squad w/ PF+Cmg+Mg+ML + Pod

+3 beacons on your 1st wave of pods

1505, if it's friendly gaming, they should be fine with the 5 points over..i would be.

happy?

[Hellios]

HQ

...so any criticism would be appreciated....

ok..here...

Pedro Kantor

espi libby with gate and Null zone

x10 Stern gaurd unit w/PF HFLx2 Pod

x10 Stern guard squad w/PF HFLx2 Pod

x10 Tactical Squad w/PF+Cmg+Mg+ML pod

x10 Tactical Squad w/ PF+Cmg+Mg+ML + Pod

+3 beacons on your 1st wave of pods

1505, if it's friendly gaming, they should be fine with the 5 points over..i would be.

happy?

I rage out about the 5 points because I made my list to be 1,500pts or less when I could have taken a better list if it had been 1,501pts! At one time our club had a rule that allowed you to go up to 2.5% beyong the points limit of the game... but all that did is that people started playing 1,025pt games rather than 1,000 which is annoying when you actually try and stick to the points limit agreed to... it is there for a reason... Why not take 2,000pts to a 1,500pt game...

 

No ok if someone turned up and the only list they had was 1,505pts I wouldn't mind I would play them, I was just wanted to make a point that is is pretty annoying if people repeatedly turn up with a list that goes over the agreed value or over the value that your group normally plays... unless you have agreed to it before hand :)

[ShinyRhino]

You can easily fix that 5 point overage by dropping the third beacon, since your first "wave" of pods will be 2, since you only have 4 total.

 

It's also VERY bad form to show up with lists that are over by "just a couple points", for all the reasons Hellios pointed out.

[thade]

It's also VERY bad form to show up with lists that are over by "just a couple points", for all the reasons Hellios pointed out.

 

^ This.

[Ming]

Yep, drop the beacons on all but the first 2 pods. Frankly if the termies are dropped, skip beacons entirely. Libby with null zone and avenger, and bring in with the HF sternguard. Drop 1 pod close, the other behind it. Put Pedro in the back pod, regardless, and keep him from being charged turn 1 through creative model placement to block movement to him.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

1505, if it's friendly gaming, they should be fine with the 5 points over..i would be.

happy?

this ^ and .1.. for players that RAGE out about anything. sorry,

and, personally, up to 9 point over, isn't going to make or break any list.

[Br0ther Rafen]

thanks for the list fatiswon, it looks pretty solid, and it stays aroud the theme to! -_-

just 1 thing.... what about the anti mech? because their is only 2 ML's and 2 MG's, and in a drop assualt army the ML's wouldn't be used until later in the game after i set up in a position when i really need some tanks dead asap. still, against my friends we only really use 1 or 2 tanks at most in our usual games, so it does kinda balance out. also, i was thinking why don't you drop the beacons alltogether? the units can't mishap (but still scatter) so their pretty much safe. you may as well take out the beacons and move some points around for other upgrades. again though, no offence fatiswon i think that it is a great list and i appreciate your help.

everyone else thanks for the critisism so far, i might make a revised list when i have my codex handy.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

The beacons give you control, of what lands where, on your 2nd turn. How much is that worth to you?

to get your self below 1500, i'd drop one of the heavy flamers, due to that fact that you get back a Bolter with SA

yes your are correct that the ML are for turns 3,4,5 and six... mostly to shoot down fast attack/skimmers, or anything that can contest at the end of the game. As for anti mech, your pods will and should put you within 12"-18", the only thing mech units will do is run away from those power fists..Trouble with this kinda of build is you have to make the choice, between short range,Long range, or assault.

One option if you have the models, take one or two dreads with either, the TLACx2 or my personal choice, for Dropped podding Dread, would be the Assault cannon/Missile launcher upgraded to a Vendread with EA... 5 dice that hit on 2+ Dropped, pretty much wounds on most targets, on 2+ as well.

The one thing, about the list thou, i would urge you to find the points to add a 5th pod. maybe drop the Libby, and take a Fire bomb dread, in a pod (Twin link Heavy Flamer+Heavy flamer+pod) that would give you 3/2 pod drop, instead of the 3/1 you have with 4 pod. While the Fire bomb isnt a popular choice, it is a pain to deal with, and remember dreads can run, and that DCCW is fair at peeling open tanks. IF you take this road(your milage may vary..) i would advise you shift the heavy flamers out of the Stern guard units, and replace them with x8 combi meltas (4 for each squad)

[Hellios]

1505, if it's friendly gaming, they should be fine with the 5 points over..i would be.

happy?

this ^ and .1.. for players that RAGE out about anything. sorry,

and, personally, up to 9 point over, isn't going to make or break any list.

 

Who is going to win an Ork boy or a Space Marine... I'll give you a clue it is the one that is pretty near being nine points over... It might not make or break your list but your list may well be weaker because you have stuck to the limit (as your options have been restricted), while the other person may be able to get a stronger list because they had the abillity to access better options. Take a 1,509pt list to a GT and see how many players agree with you.

[Br0ther Rafen]

good point fatiswon, i was just thnking about the ML's primaraily, but the fists will help alot aswell, even is it means they give up a round of shooting...

Still though, pods with beacons are helpful but i really don't think their worth the extra points. I mean, yeah they do help make sure that my squads come in on target but what happens if i don't deploy them 6" away? thats a wasted 10 points.

i do however agree with the rest of the advice and i'll try to adjust my list acordingly.

also, i was actually thinking on dropping the libby anyway for something heavy, that can deal with/tie up my opponents hard units in assualt. flame dreads are annoying with their multiple HF's, but my friend told me he has used a flame dread before and it only killed 5 guys in a unit before getting it's :P handed to it by a lascannon, or something. again, their are useful but i was thinking something more like an ironclad with SH, DCCW and 2x HF's so it hits a unit hard with HF's then makes sure that it is dead by assualting it. you can do the same thing with a fire bomb, but this loadout will have more attacks in CC but no re roll to wound for the flamer.

finally, i have a revised list in mind, but i don't have a codex handy when i was meant to (grrrr) but i should be able to post it tommorow. thanks for all the help so far guys.

[Hellios]

an ironclad with SH, DCCW and 2x HF's so it hits a unit hard with HF's then makes sure that it is dead by assualting it. you can do the same thing with a fire bomb, but this loadout will have more attacks in CC but no re roll to wound for the flamer.

finally, i have a revised list in mind, but i don't have a codex handy when i was meant to (grrrr) but i should be able to post it tommorow. thanks for all the help so far guys.

Personally I like a HF and a melta... because sometimes you will want to target armour and 1 heavy flamer makes a pretty good mess anyway (Although it is true that two are better...), I'm not sure how you feel about FW but I think if thats cool with your group deathstorms are worth looking at.

[Br0ther Rafen]

heres the list that i made.

i'm not sure if i should keep Pedro, because i was think that the DP tacticals will pretty much capture objectives for the Sternguard, so any help/advice would be appreciated.

HQ

Pedro Kantor 175

 

Troops

10x Tactical w/ MG ML DP Beacon 220pt

10x Tactical w/ MG fist MM DP 235pt

10x Tactical w/ PG PC Rhino 220pt

5x tactical w/ Rhino 125pt

 

Elites

5x SG w/ PF 2xCMG DP 195pt

5x SG w/ 2xHF DP 180pt

Ironclad Dread w/ 2xHF DCCW SH 150pt

Points: 1500pt

 

Basicly, tacticals come in first turn to do their associated tasks (MG fist for tanks, 2nd Mg to be sure) while pod beacon brings down the sterguard w/ HF's while second squad takes the objective or can kill tanks in an emergency.

Tacticals on the ground one for ranged fire support, other their just for a rhino for more mobilty ad holding a home objective possibly.

Not to sure about pedro w/ sterguard assualt wave because i was thinking drop pedro and a SG unit for a support Libby with avenger/gate. teleports around the table with HF's SG posibly being really anoying while i use the other spare point's to get soemthing else. Not sure on what though, i was thinking mabye tac termies w/ HF to come down and flame something, and then just be a fire soak i guess. mabye could get a ranged dread for cheaper could be beter. anyway, tips and advice on the list would be greatly appreciated.

PS sorry for taking so much on the board i was accidently holding down enter.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

.... but what happens if i don't deploy them 6" away?

you don't get the extra d6 on armor pen. on that Melta gun shot.

remember that with all advice, your milage may vary..

@hellios, DO i need to REPEAT that it's for friendly games?? i've nothing else nice to say about this, or you. have fun being your self.

[Hellios]

.... but what happens if i don't deploy them 6" away?

you don't get the extra d6 on armor pen. on that Melta gun shot.

remember that with all advice, your milage may vary..

@hellios, DO i need to REPEAT that it's for friendly games?? i've nothing else nice to say about this, or you. have fun being your self.

I got is was for friendly games, my point was it shows a lack of respect, see if GT players agree with you.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

1505, if it's friendly gaming, they should be fine with the 5 points over..i would be.

happy?

this ^ and .1.. for players that RAGE out about anything. sorry,

and, personally, up to 9 point over, isn't going to make or break any list.

 

Who is going to win an Ork boy or a Space Marine... I'll give you a clue it is the one that is pretty near being nine points over... It might not make or break your list but your list may well be weaker because you have stuck to the limit (as your options have been restricted), while the other person may be able to get a stronger list because they had the abillity to access better options. Take a 1,509pt list to a GT and see how many players agree with you.

 

Yeah except no ones suggesting taking a padded list to a GT, nor are they seeking approval for it.

 

Key word here, friendly gaming.

[Hellios]

1505, if it's friendly gaming, they should be fine with the 5 points over..i would be.

happy?

this ^ and .1.. for players that RAGE out about anything. sorry,

and, personally, up to 9 point over, isn't going to make or break any list.

 

Who is going to win an Ork boy or a Space Marine... I'll give you a clue it is the one that is pretty near being nine points over... It might not make or break your list but your list may well be weaker because you have stuck to the limit (as your options have been restricted), while the other person may be able to get a stronger list because they had the abillity to access better options. Take a 1,509pt list to a GT and see how many players agree with you.

 

Yeah except no ones suggesting taking a padded list to a GT, nor are they seeking approval for it.

 

Key word here, friendly gaming.

 

and a lack of respect is ok in friendly gaming? Also the OP is not asking for a padded list for friendly games he is asking for a 1,500pt for what I assume are 1,500pt games... do the B&C now advocate cheating... I thought this forum was better than that...

[Hellios]

D-D-D-DOUBLE POST

[Hellios]

M-M-M-MULTI POST!