Auto-fail morale?

[trefenwyd]

Hello all,

 

I'm back with yet another question from my anally RAW vs. RAI gaming group. (last topic was choosing to fail/i.e., not take armor saves - we eventually put it to a store house rule vote and now armor saves are not "optional" despite the "may take" verbiage of the rulebook).

 

I don't have the rule book in front of me, but is choosing to fail a morale test (from 25% shooting) legal? I.e., if the rulebook says "may take a leadership test...", does my opponent have the option to fail his test, flee 2d6" (thus usually putting him outside of charge range), then being marines, auto-regroup and charge me on his turn? It's led to quite a few games where I choose not to even fire my bolt/plasma pistols since I don't want him running. If it's legal using RAW, how many others have seen this despicable abuse of the rules? (Or if anyone thinks it's a perfectly fine tactic and there's nothing wrong with it, let me know that too)

 

Thanks,

 

Trefenwyd

[postal105]

i have never seen anyone choose to fail a morale test but i have seen plenty of people role their morel and fail it and then run away. so it sounds like to me someone is abusing the rules.

[Lord Clinto]

I personally have never seen it happen.

 

In a tactical sense (especially for atsknf marines) it a very wise option to choose to not take a morale test, i.e. auto-fail the test, run away, regroup and countercharge. Not the most honorable way about doing it but if it get the job done....

 

If it says "may take...", to me RAW is quite clear regardless of RAI. "May" stating you the player have the option of choosing.

 

 

Though a counter to my tactical sense argument is the Inquisitor Lord's rule (and Calgar I think) to have the choice of passing or failing a morale test.

[HunterShades]

ive seen this (and it has been done to me) a few times... and i belive it is legal looking over the rules - a nice trick... park a rhino within 6" (so behind where the marines will fall back) then wave as they keep running because although you are a marine... you still cant rally if there is an enemy within 6"

 

which is how i beat it.. then they blow up the rhino falling back off the board :tu: also with ATSKNF there are a few other dirty tricks but thats not for here i dont think - but its all legit as far as i know (annoying) - but its legal

[Legatus]

I don't have the rule book in front of me, but is choosing to fail a morale test (from 25% shooting) legal? I.e., if the rulebook says "may take a leadership test...", does my opponent have the option to fail his test, flee 2d6" (thus usually putting him outside of charge range), then being marines, auto-regroup and charge me on his turn?

People might get such funny ideas if that was what the morale rules were saying. However, that's not what they are saying.

 

Taking Morale Checks

Units normally have to take a Morale check in the following situations:

 

A unit losing 25% or more of its models during a single phase must pass a Morale check at the end of that phase, or else will fall back. (...)

A unit that is locked in close combat does not have to take Morale cheks for taking 25% casualties.

 

If a tank reaches an enemy unit's position then the unit must take a Morale check to see whether or not it falls back.

 

All from BRB page 44. Morale tests are NOT optional. The new Space Marines special rule 'Combat Tactics' would be quite pointless if they were.

[trefenwyd]

Ah, Opponent happened to be SM with tac squads. May have been that he was just using his special rules w/o telling me they were special. That would at least explain a lot.

[Dahli Llama]

Ah, Opponent happened to be SM with tac squads. May have been that he was just using his special rules w/o telling me they were special. That would at least explain a lot.

 

Probably.

 

Standard Space Marines have "Combat Tactics" that lets them voluntarily fail a leadership test.

[Coverfire]

I believe 3rd and possibly 4th had voluntary fall back rules, though I never came across them myself.

[Grey Mage]

Yep, legal if somewhat cowardly tactic- run away instead of facing the fury of the wolves.

[Kreon]

I can clarify on this since I also play Ultras.

 

Any unit with Combat Tactics can choose to automatically fail morale if they want. However, if they do not choose to fail, they still have to take the test as normal.

 

If Calgar is on the table, he grants the ability to choose to pass as well, making morale tests dependent on the will of the gamer.

 

Even if a squad chooses failure, they can still be caught by sweeping advance, which will not kill them but will keep them locked in CC.

 

 

As for the validity, there is nothing cowardly about it. Play to your force's strengths. However, it is not as good a tactic against Wolves as it is against many other forces because of Counter-Attack. Essentially using it against Wolves gets you this: if you fall back and decide to assault, they will have the same number of attacks as you and you forgo shooting. If you fall back and shoot, you run the risk of getting assaulted again and granting a +2A to certain Wolf units. Honestly, this is only a tactic I'd use if I have a chaplain in the squad or if it's somebody like Calgar or Sicarius.

[Grey Mage]

The only thing it muddles is wether or not a squad with combat tactics and calgar is subject to no retreat wounds when choosing to auto-pass.

[Wildfire]

The only thing it muddles is wether or not a squad with combat tactics and calgar is subject to no retreat wounds when choosing to auto-pass.

 

Seems quite obvious to me. Do you normally get no retreat wounds for passing a morale check? There's your answer.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

As for the validity, there is nothing cowardly about it. Play to your force's strengths. However, it is not as good a tactic against Wolves as it is against many other forces because of Counter-Attack. Essentially using it against Wolves gets you this: if you fall back and decide to assault, they will have the same number of attacks as you and you forgo shooting. If you fall back and shoot, you run the risk of getting assaulted again and granting a +2A to certain Wolf units. Honestly, this is only a tactic I'd use if I have a chaplain in the squad or if it's somebody like Calgar or Sicarius.

 

Agreed, it is how the army is designed to play.

 

Disagree there onwards :P

 

Greys v Tacs.

Greys volley and assault Tacs.

Tacs combat tactics away. Win to Ultras. That is a good result.

 

Greys assault Tacs.

Only 3a [as the pistol shot is passed up]

less damage done.

Tacs still get done over ~ 3 v 1 attack is just a bad thing.

1] Tacs stay locked in combat, get ground away by Greys.

2] Tacs combat tactics away. Tacs RF Greys. 2 bolter shots > 1 a + 2 a against. Other Ultra units can contribute shooting too. Easier to add shooting than covering the ground to assault them.

Considering that Tacs will be bringing Pg or Mg and not PW, that is even better.

 

Tacs should never* assault Greys. *Unless it gets you within 3" of an Objective, etc.

 

Lets see about proper Assault units.

Hammernators somehow get beaten up :huh: Pretend they get multi-assaulted and lost dudes to torrent of attacks.

Hammernators combat tactics away. +1 TH attack > +1 other attack ~ counter attack is not automatic either. Ld 8 = 72.2% Ld 9 = 83.3% Ld 10 = 91.7%

When the Hammernators disengage, the rest of your army fires at what they will not charge again. This is much better than the Terms going it alone.

The Terms then get an extra TH attack and the Wolves might get an extra attack :devil:

 

If somehow a ThunderLord smoked the Hammernators, them combat tactics'ing away will give them extra attacks per model. The ThunderLord will only get 1 more.

 

Even pretend Assault units like Assault Marines benefit from combat tactics against Wolves.

Lost combat.

1] Fight Greys with 2 a apiece.

2] Combat tactics away. Shoot pistols and get 3 a against probably 3, but on Ld 9 1/6 times will just be 2.

Even if they do counter-attack, you've added shooting, which thins them out and reduces the damage you suffer. You have just received an edge on them that cannot be undone. Less Wolves = less dead Ultras = less Wolves, ad nauseam.

[Grey Mage]

Marshal, why in the emperors name wouldnt we shoot them with our pistols?

[Spacefrisian]

No you cannot choose not to roll for morale chech, otherwise some rules would be pretty stupid eg the Spacemarine combat tactics and or Inquisitor Iron Will.

 

 

Dont let me bring up that certain pic again.

[Grey Mage]

The only thing it muddles is wether or not a squad with combat tactics and calgar is subject to no retreat wounds when choosing to auto-pass.

 

Seems quite obvious to me. Do you normally get no retreat wounds for passing a morale check? There's your answer.

You do when you normally auto-pass them.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Marshal, why in the emperors name wouldnt we shoot them with our pistols?

 

Greys are within 6" to assault them

Greys pistol shoot them

Tacs choose to fail morale test and move out of charge range.

Greys are left thinking "if only we'd rushed in like Blood Claws"

Tacs smuggly laugh to one another "Shoulda read the Codex Astartes, smarty pants" whilst breathing a sigh of relief.

[Grey Mage]

Marshal, why in the emperors name wouldnt we shoot them with our pistols?

 

Greys are within 6" to assault them

Greys pistol shoot them

Tacs choose to fail morale test and move out of charge range.

Greys are left thinking "if only we'd rushed in like Blood Claws"

Tacs smuggly laugh to one another "Shoulda read the Codex Astartes, smarty pants" whilst breathing a sigh of relief.

If its close enough that ones worried, then why not rapid fire first?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

If its close enough that ones worried, then why not rapid fire first?

 

That is exactly it. What is it? I'll explain :P

 

The threat of combat tactics is as good the use of CT.

 

Greys are stronger in mêlée than Tacs. Hands down.

 

Not being able to volley+charge them has reduced the Greys potential. The [in effect] i10 extra attacks the pistol shot gives is useful, even if it seems a bit wimpy. You kill his dudes before you both fight at i4. Every successful pistol kill is one less attack coming back. That one attack fight do nothing, but it could kill a precious Grey.

 

The i10 attack being lost is not just a loss of 1/4 of your attacks when you charge. The pistol is better than the rest of the attacks because it kills them before they can strike simultaneously with you.

 

So instead of 1+3 attacks, you drop to 3 attacks and kill less Tacs. This closes the gap between Tacs and Greys. The Greys will kill less Tacs when they win the combat. That leaves more Tacs for next turns RFing against them. Which means more dead Greys.

 

Alternatively you can RF them yourself. But instead of using 3 versus 1 attacks, you drop down to 2 versus 0 attacks.

Whilst Greys are fine at engaging in a Bolter shoot out with Tacs, being even for all intents and purposes, the threat of CT has stopped the Greys from using there strength against them. That is a win for the Ultras, they are shaping how you fight.

 

When you consider [unless Greys are bringing 2 Pg] that Tacs will be bring better shooting extras [with HW potentially better than SW], it gets even better for the Ultras.

 

Do I think Tacs are better than Greys? No. They are different but equal. What CT does is alleviate the weakness Tacs have and can shape the Greys to fighting their way.

 

+++

 

Why is this something I am harping on about?

Alleviating weaknesses is something that is something I am noticing in my online career :lol: :P

Neophytes are just as shooty and choppy as Initiates, point for point. They absolutely get hammered when without the Marines though. Sv4+ and ws3 means they get cleaned up.

Neos are Marine Scouts for all intents and purposes. Being the minority in a Crusader squad means that I get all the good bits of Scouts and suffer none of the weaknesses that Ultras suffer with them.

Weakness alleviated.

 

Another is Greys versus Crusaders.

I have shown you with mathhammer that Crusaders [w/ bp+cs] are better than Greys in mêlée. What the Greys can do is start shooting the Crusaders from 24" and whittle away the Crusaders before the combat ever eventuates.

Then we get to a favourite of mine. The Wolf Standard.

The re-roll ones is not as powerful as re-roll hits in the first place.

 

Crusaders v Orks. 30a

22.5 hit. 11.25 wound. 9.4 dead.

Wolf standard Grey v Orks. 30a

17.5 hit. 10.2 wound. 8.5 dead

Without WS the Greys kill 6.25.

 

With the WS, the Greys become almost as killy as Crusaders.

This is the second killer part. Only half of the Greys die to how many Templars die, due to the re-rolling ones. So the Greys will have more dudes for next round too, again covering their inferiority in combat with more guys.

Weakness alleviated.

 

These are big things. But if you tip those little things your favour, you can tip a draw into a victory, etc. Well worth it imo.