Time Flux in the Eye

[Hiro_Protagonist]

People always seem to be pointing out that time flows differently in the Eye of Terror. Mostly that it's slower, and in many cases, to a great extent...Chaos marines only experiencing 10 years in the last 10 thousand.

 

My question then is this...how is the war still functional!?

 

In ten thousand years you would think that the imperium would have us hopelessly out gunned by now. Not only through "new" technologies being discovered, but also through shear manufacturing power (as chaos really only has the planets within the eye to draw from).

 

But somehow in the last 10,000 years (10? years warp time) Chaos has been able to mount 13 Black Crusades. Where in the world are we drawing that kind of manpower from anyway?

[minigun762]

I think its a variety of sources.

1) There are a huge amount of mortals that fill the rank and file (cannon fodder) ranks of the crusades. Between Cultists, defecting IG elements, mutants and slaves, you have quite alot of bodies.

2) Daemons, this is an easy way to fill your ranks as well. As long as you can summon and maintain them, you have a limitless source of killers. Considering how close the usual targets of crusade are to the Eye of Terror, its reasonable to expect a substantial daemonic element.

3) The various Legions and warbands are still recruiting in some fashion whether its making new Space Marines from scratch or pulling in renegades from the Imperium.

 

While the time distortion of the warp is there, the effects of it are very hard to nail down. Some CSMs might experience years or decades of time while others have experienced centuries or more. It would also depend on how much of your time you spend in or out of the Eye.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

But if the vast majority of our manufacturing is taking place in this slowed down sector of space how could vehicles and munitions be replaced at the rate that the are getting used up?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Thievery and sorcery.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Okay, I play Thousand sons, and so I'm all for "If it doesn't make sense, a wizard did it." but if we had that kind of power why wouldn't chaos have just steam rolled the imperium then?

[minigun762]

Thievery and sorcery.

 

Very true. Chaos seems to like to loot stuff as much as Orks.

 

Remember that the nature of the warp works with us as well, we're able to build things that you just can't in the physical world. So where it might take an AM forge world 50 years to make 50,000 tanks, maybe we have some giant metal birthing worm that poops out those same tanks in an hour after we feed it a captured battleship or something.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Okay, I play Thousand sons, and so I'm all for "If it doesn't make sense, a wizard did it." but if we had that kind of power why wouldn't chaos have just steam rolled the imperium then?

 

The problem with things being made the quick way through sorcerous means is that inevitably it's going to have to enter a realm where there are actual rules as opposed to the Anything Goes of the Immaterium. From what I gather from Iron Warriors fluff, they have a sort of combination system of production, with some things meant specifically for use in the Warp and other things meant specifically for use in realspace. Most likely, warbands have what amounts to two armories of equipment, with the realspace stuff being far more highly valued because it's difficult to acquire, expensive to manufacture/maintain, or just outright rare to find. I also imagine cannibalization is commonplace.

[isilvra]

One key point. While time flows differently in the warp, it does not flow at the same rate for everyone. For example, a black Legion war band experiences 10 years while 10000 years pass. A Night Lords war band may experience 30 years in the space of 5 years in real time. Basically it's not the same Chaos Astartes throwing themselves at the Imperium in every crusade and on the occasion when the same band takes part in many crusades, the attrition rate is no more unrealistic than a loyal chapters would be. Even loosing 5 Astartes would be a serious lose given that it will take upwards of 10 years to replace that one warrior. Any Major battle could almost lead to irrecoverable battle losses.

 

I remember reading somewhere that the demon forges in the eye of Terror churn out more war material than can actually be used by the forces of chaos. So much so that a lot of it simply...drifts around in space. (that comes from the BL novel Eye of Terror, while it commits so many fluff crimes as to be almost unreliable, this bit stuck with me)

 

Lets not forget also that the Eye of Terror could possibly contain at least as many worlds as the Imperium of man.

[maverike_prime]

in the book Dark Adeptus they make reference to entire forge worlds being taken into the warp and in turn those forge worlds being dedicated to nothing but the construction of war materials. When you have several planets, dedicated to constructing munitions, I don't care how time flows that's some serious building power.

 

A couple other points to remember:

 

The Imperium's technological advancements has all but stagnated, and in some cases actually gone backwards. The titans and space ships that have been built in the last 2,000 years are considered to be inferior to the ones built in the 2,000 years prior and those are inferior to their predacessors. A lot of the really good equipment; the real titans, the good cruisers, the sturdier bolter designs, the Havoc launchers, ect, those all got taken by the Chaos marines. the stuff that wasn't has gradually worn away in the imperium.

 

Chaos forces don't actually need a machine to work, so much as they need the function of the machine to be full filled. If you're using a tank, you need that tank to be able to move. You don't actually need it to have a working engine, if it can move. Chaos is the same way. Does it shoot? Then it's a weapon. Does it move? Then I ride it. Does it kill? Good. for the most part they don't ask 'how' nor do they actually care.

[Hellios]

Chaos have probably made more technological advancements than the Imperium... although that isn't saying much as the Imperium has gone backwards... (in general)...

 

As for how chaos get more resources... well they can loot raw materials or finished products from the enemy be it a raid for that purpose on a storage/production facility or just taking the fallen space marines armour and bolters... They can as mentioned pull planets into the warp... and they also already have some planets :) They might use Warp technology which might require less material (especially fuel and ammunition)... obviously such technology is dangerous but the Soul Forge cares not.

 

As for how do they increase the ranks of armies of chaos... well as has been mentioned mutants that live within the eye, daemonic hosts, slave forces and renegade imperial guard or PDFs... and so on... Also a slow trickle of marines from out of the eye come to join them... I don't know what the true rate but for arguements sake lets say one marine falls to chaos a year (that would be 10,000 overall, with about 10 per chapter athough I guess it isn't evenly distributed), sometimes whole chapters fall at other times it is just a rogue individual or squad. Many of these will not go for the eye or will die before joining other Chaos space marines anyway... so overall this is probably an insignificant supply of marines that won't match attrition rates. Then you have people like the Iron Warriors who have stolen geneseed in order to make more... the Alpha legion who brain washed potential recruits for a loyalist marine chapter who acted as sleepers until they were set off... I don't know what happened but it is possible that these marines then joined the Alpha Legion... You have Fabulous Bile who will provide his services for a fee should you want more marines... and no doubt other apothercaries survive within various legions... Talos for example was one although from the shortage of men within the Exalteds company it seems they do not recruit.

[Midwest]

The Chaos Legions are like sausage - you're better off not knowing how they're made! :(

[Brother Ambroz]

Flesh and Iron talks about one of the worlds that the Blood Gorgons use as a recruiting base. I think the rate of loyalist space marines turning is a little higher as well. You also have to think of the entire chapters that turn. They'd be bringing with them new imperial technologies and alot of fresh marines. The new CSM codex makes it sound like most of the CSM forces are made from renegades.

 

In regards to ammunition and warmachines, you gotta remember that while time might flow slower in some areas of the eye, other areas time flows faster which gives the legions more time than the loyalists have to prepare for war.

[BLACK JOKER]

In the end all it will be is demons and human cultists to fight and so we have all ready lose....or have we. yea I have read that book they take and train farmers and village blacksmiths to train the others to fight back against the guard its a great book you view it from to points a villager how becomes an freedom fighter and a back stabbed trooper who becomes there company's

leader after him and his company are branded tainted heretics the freedom fighters find them and taken the too the Blood Gorgons who funny dont seem like 'normal' chaos space marines they tell the guy that the gods have plans for him he then fights along side the space marines but not for the gods but for his men

 

 

FOR THE GODS OF CHAOS!!!! AND FOR THE FALLEN

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

The new CSM codex makes it sound like most of the CSM forces are made from renegades.

 

 

Yeah, renegades that leave all their toys behind. :blush:

[Zeller]

The war is still going because the Imperium doesn't have the time nor the resources available to make a push into the EoT and eradicate anything that breathes.

 

Outgunned or not the EoT inhabitants only strike in small tendrils and as in the case of Cadia they do it in the same place numerous times. Again, the Imperium does have the edge as far as manufacturing power as a whole but its output is not focussed on one front as the EoT's would be. The traitors in the Eye have one enemy: Man. The Imperium has enemies on all sides.

 

Primary manpower is the traitor guard forces. Considering ships get lost in the warp every day and chaos is in effect omnipotent in the minds of men it's no small wonder that men still fall to chaos. Marines tend to focus their efforts on acquiring relics, gene seed, information, or destroying targets to make a point.

[Brother Ambroz]

The war is still going because the Imperium doesn't have the time nor the resources available to make a push into the EoT and eradicate anything that breathes.

 

Outgunned or not the EoT inhabitants only strike in small tendrils and as in the case of Cadia they do it in the same place numerous times. Again, the Imperium does have the edge as far as manufacturing power as a whole but its output is not focussed on one front as the EoT's would be. The traitors in the Eye have one enemy: Man. The Imperium has enemies on all sides.

 

Primary manpower is the traitor guard forces. Considering ships get lost in the warp every day and chaos is in effect omnipotent in the minds of men it's no small wonder that men still fall to chaos. Marines tend to focus their efforts on acquiring relics, gene seed, information, or destroying targets to make a point.

 

Even if the imperium did have the manpower with every warp entity, traitor guard, marines etc. there's no way they'd be able to take out the EoT.

[Enayalio]

I think time in the warp fluctuates rather than just goes faster.

Like tomorrow is yesterday but next Tuesday is 10 years from now and Wednesday is really tomorrow

[Daeghrefn]

The other thing you have to consider is that not all the legions are equipped equally. The Word Bearers have a couple planets entirely dedicated to producing their weapons and a huge army of slaves to work for them; conversely the Night Lords are practically falling apart. They are portrayed as scavenging anything they can possibly still use from dead loyalists (or each other) and struggle with recruiting enough to replace their losses.

 

Some legions or warbands are extremely well supplied while others are not. It just depends on how well an individual warband is doing.

[Brother Ambroz]

The other thing you have to consider is that not all the legions are equipped equally. The Word Bearers have a couple planets entirely dedicated to producing their weapons and a huge army of slaves to work for them; conversely the Night Lords are practically falling apart. They are portrayed as scavenging anything they can possibly still use from dead loyalists (or each other) and struggle with recruiting enough to replace their losses.

 

Some legions or warbands are extremely well supplied while others are not. It just depends on how well an individual warband is doing.

 

The WB are the only ones still functioning as a legion, thus they are very well equipped. The NL are broken apart but that was only one warband. Others may be much better equipped and actually be thriving while the exalted/talos's warband falls apart.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Iron Warriors are pretty cohesive as well.

[God Of War]

Chaos Space Marines either:

1.Steal any spoils of war

2.Create just the chassis and bind a daemon or mutated marine into it

3.Subsume Forge Worlds into the Eye of Terror and use them as they normally would work.

Different legions have different methods

Ex:

World Eaters-Method 1

Word Bearers-Method 2

Iron Warriors-Method 3

[Corporal_Chaos]

You reallyshouldn't look for a logical or realistic answer for anything ruled over by chaos. Chaos and time flux in the warp are just not bound by anyting that resembles "Reality". They may not experience ageing but still exist for 10K years. They may start their day in th past collecting material to take to the future to be built yesterday. This is Chaos, and the "Wizard did it" is a perfect explanation. If you want order and sound logical answers to the quantum issues....look outside the eye. Your inqueries will only drive you mad.....