Beat down by salamanders

[nicolo]

So here is the deal, I'm a relatively new player, though a longstanding fan of the fiction. I've been playing for about six monthes now and have crammed as many games as work allowed in against every type of opponent I could find at my local gaming store. Game sizes vary, from about 1500 to 3000, and currently we are gearing up for a 2000 pt local tournament at the end of this month.

I roughly came up with a list, and have field tested it against a few of the better players. I have found it to be effective in objective based games, but I tried it against a salamander c:sm army led by Vulkan in an annihilation game and at the end of five turns he had 9 kill points to my 4. We went a sixth and I was able to finish off a few partial units bringing my kill total to 7 and him to 11.

My army was roughly:

Hq: Astorath

 

Elite: Furioso w/blood claws, magna grapple, melta, flmr- deployed in Drop Pod

Furioso Libby w/ Blood lance, and Shield- deployed in Drop Pod

Sang Priest w/Jump Pack

 

Troops: 10 man assault sqd, 2x melta, storm shield and power fist

10 man assault sqd, 2x melta, storm shield and power fist

10 man assault sqd, no jump packs, 2x melta, storm shield and power sword- deployed in Drop Pod

10 man assault sqd, no jump packs, 2x flamer, lightning claws- deployed in Rhino

 

Fast: Baal, w/flamestorm, heavy bolter sponsons, and storm bolter

 

Heavy: 6x Devastator sqd, w/ 4x missile launchers

 

The Vulkan army was fairly typical, a deathstar unit of 5x lc termies in a land raider w/ vulkan, 5x ss th termies with a chaplain in termie armor, predator, two 2x skimmer sqds rocking meltas and flamers, 2x razorbacks with 5 man tac sqds, 2x ironclads each deployed via drop pods. There was some bad luck on my rolling, and I have beaten similiar army types before, but they have been giving me trouble with this particular list. I am geared more towards objective based games, but am seeking that happy balance.

 

Now, I'm not really looking for a sure fire technique to beat this particular army, for one because that kinda takes the fun out of it, and two I'm more interested in coming up with as balanced an army as possible. Nor do I just want list critiques. This is my first post on this website and what I would like is more of a tactical discussion given what I have currently. Minor tweeks of the list is fine, but I do enjoy the way the list plays, as well as point and model availabilty I only have so many options. So I won't be competely reconstructing whole units. I've been reading many of the articles and posts on this website and I know there are a lot of experienced players out there, and my main goal is to steal some of that knowledge and attempt to make it my own.

 

I tend to play a little bit of alpha strike when I go first, hitting the enemy on the first turn as hard as I can with the drop pods w/ both dreads or dread and 10 man assault sqd. As well as I push the baal up close and personal. All supported by the dev squad picking out key targets. The opponent has to worry about the big uglies in his deployment, which tends to give me time to advance my other units towards objectives and or designated targets. I try my best to be flexible, and use my mobility to focus on certain parts of my opponents army. Though I am always willing to abort and change my strategy should the tactical situation change. I don't mind killing off my own units if it gives me a tactical advantage somehow, but neither do I throw them out where they will die cheaply for no real gain.

 

I always try to battle the better players, so that I can learn from them. I feel a have a solid understanding of the rules, but the fine nuances that come with experience I am still learning, often the hard way. Though I do my best not to get fooled twce by the same tactic. But overall, again any insight, tactics, fine rule nuances that benefit the blood angels, list tweeks and minor changes are all welcome. If I'm a complete idiot and am making some obviously stupid decisions or mistakes please let me know, I am thick skinned and I appreciate any honest help and opinions that will make me a better player.

 

Lastly sorry for the length of this post, again it is my first here, and as I become a more active participant I will try to keep it more to the point in the future. Thanks

[Redo]

For an "alpha" strike army you are going to have a few problems against when you pop a raider or two and then occupants pop out and destroy you. Perhaps it would be better to have some VGV around some where instead of either your Drop pod or RHino RAS. THe idea that when you destroy some meaty tank (ie) raider you have a unit that can engage the occupants.

 

One another note your Baal predator has little synergy with the flamestorm cannon and HB, would be better to have TLAC and HB and fire at range or just the Flamestorm cannon and perhaps storm bolter.

 

I also think that you have spent a lot on storm shields on single models. This cost adds up...very quick. Also think the lightning claws on the RAS serg is a bit of a waste as they cost so much. WOuld rather go just the Power weapon route.

 

These points cost will able you to get a bit of a Hammer unit of your own going.

[nicolo]

It's only one lightning claw, which is the same point cost as a reg power wpn, but I get to reroll wounds, at the cost of the extra attack for not having two claws. I agree the shields are starting to add up and I am strongly considering dropping them to free up some extra points. I'm not a full on alpha strike, I just enjoy the approach at times, if I do pop a land raider with a dread, even if assaulted i've more than made up my points, 250 base land raider vs my dread walking in at about 170. plus with a furioso in combat front armor 13 the only thing I am horribly scared about is thunder hammers and I would hit first, so even there if I die I should more than make up my points. If I apply the drop pod RAS on first turn it is always in conjunction with the dread, but usually that doesn't try to drop on a raider, more likely an obj or some other more profitable target. I'm at a loss for the baal though, I agree it doesn't support my itself like it should, but when it does damage it's great. I'd like to find a way to add a second baal, and am considering the assault cannon instead of the flamestorm. though that is a good idea to drop the hb and save 30pts. I appreciate the comments, first reply and I've already got new options to consider. thanks

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Alphastrike is very powerful. I understand the threat posed by thunder termies is understandable so to find a balance using a fairly cheap unit that can spew melta shots can bring down their ride. I like to have three melta shots in a unit dedicated to destroying a landraider, this will provide good odds even if they pop smoke. I think if you play to the strength of DoA you can take Salamanders. There are some very good Salamander players and they tend to have some mean trick of their sleeves so it's never simply said and done. The strengths of DoA versus Salamanders is superior mobility, you can match them with melta, and you have better close combat units. If you were to field a Storm Raven I think it would give you an edge... One of your dreads can ride and with ceramite plating you are much less vulnerable to all those twin linked meltas. Basically you can hang back out of their relatively short range then move in for the kill. That is one of my strategies versus Salamanders and it works well for me.

 

0b ;)

[SamaNagol]

Target denial.

 

Keep everything spaced out across your table edge.

 

Remember your army can move faster than his, so let him drop down his Ironclads in front of whatever he likes. They will kill 2 pieces of armour. You can then in turn focus fire and kill both his ironclads and his drop pods next turn with your meltagun armed assault marines and Devastators. You are automatically +2 in KPs.

 

Then take down his Land Raider using melta and make sure those Terminators have to move slowly, so they cannot catch you. Drop Skimmers with Missiles.

 

Then systematically over power his remaining forces by using your speed to out number him at weak points in his lines and to retreat when anything you cannot defeat tries to engage.

 

Use your speed to defeat his power up close.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah our speed means we can overwhelm them with superior numbers. Once their termies are walking they are much easier to handle.

 

0b ;)

[nicolo]

I have liked the idea of the Storm Raven from the moment I read it, but there is no model for it yet. I have been working on some conversions, but so far have only done a libby dread, jump libby and an inquisitor. I haven't built anything as big as a Storm Raven, though if anyone has a good plan/picture idea for how to build it efficiently I would def give it a crack, and put it in my army. I think that would give me a solid edge.

 

As for thunder termies and chappy, I actually slaughtered them to a man with a jump sqd, astorath, and a sang priest. The prob was vulkan and the lc termies coming from the land raider. I was able to get a few glances on the raider and slow it down, but not stop it. Eventually he was able to deliver his mini deathstar into me. FNP didn't do me any good against 20 LC charging attacks, plus vulkan. I am considering swapping astorath for dante to make better use of his hit and run so that I don't get locked into combat and allow my opponent an easy charge into me, plus the extra melta is always a plus, but at the same time I def like astorath's bump on the red thirst roll, as well as the rerolling of invul against his axe. It's a tough choice right now, cuz to switch I'd also have to lose something from my list to afford the points. Any ideas?

[SnorriSnorrison]

I think, especially against twin-linked meltaguns, mech is not a good idea, so your list has a decent chance to win. However, you might add another Sanguinary Priest as the twin-linked flamers will cause a lot of damage if you didn't.

 

You may also consider to swap a RAS for a DC with JP. Hold them in reserves if you fear to lose them due to shooting, and get rid of all the speeders before deepstriking them on the table. By deepstriking, you also have more control over them because they won't go anywhere for a turn. The DC will be able to deal with the terminators once the Landraider has popped, and Astorath will be able to slice Vulkan into bits.

 

 

I agree with the prior posters, a Stormraven is a nice idea as it counters the melta ability and provides a decent tank-threat thanks to the bloodstrike missiles.

Oh, and Vanguard Veterans will also be helpful. You don´t need 4 Assault Squads when you can table your opponent with more specialised untis.

 

 

Snorri

[MaleOpener]

I'm surprised no one mentioned this, then again I haven't seen many players use this tactic, but just "tank shock" the terminators with your Baal predator.

 

Storm shields don't stand a chance, and the squad in the LR would be easy without their ride.

 

Your 10man assault squads can be broken down into smaller squads of 5. Two squads with a meltagun and a power weapons, then two squads with a flamer and a power weapon. All four squads have jump packs. You use these squads to tag-team your opponent's razorback squads. The melta squads pop the razorback, the flamer squad gives a boost in dealing with the squad inside. In the ensewing CC, your power weapons will give a nice bonus and should kill any power fist models before they strike back.

 

Your devastator squad should easily take out the speeders. If you plan on adding a second Baal, one with its assault cannon and HB sponsons will also help against the speeders.

 

"Dakka" predators and vindicators are also worth looking into.

[SnorriSnorrison]

I'm surprised no one mentioned this, then again I haven't seen many players use this tactic, but just "tank shock" the terminators with your Baal predator.

 

Storm shields don't stand a chance, and the squad in the LR would be easy without their ride.

 

 

Quite an interesting idea, but the Thunderhammers do stand a chance, as they autoglance the rhino and probably will squish it into pieces. And if not, they still have a chaplain(fearless) and or Vulkan(LD10) amongst them, so the chance of breaking them is rather low.

 

 

Snorri

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I used a rhino to proxy for the Stormraven until I had a converted model to use. You definitely need to pop his landraider as early as possible. I would take the following squad to insta gib them:

 

Astorath (S6 crozius, force opponent to reroll invulnerable saves)

Honorguard (jump packs):

Veteran #1: power fist & stormshield (chapter banner)

Veteran #2: pair of lightning claws

Veteran #3: lightning claw & stormshield

Veteran #4: meltagun

 

Blast the landraider with all four Bloodstrike missiles and the TL las at safe range. If you can at least immobilize it then next turn close and blast with TL multi-melta. If you destroy it then charge the terms with your Super Heroes unit. They will die to weight of attacks.

 

0b

[SamaNagol]

If his Terminators and Vulkan have no Storm Shields, which by your first post it sounds like they dont, then Astorath and a unit of Sanguinary Guard with a Chapter Banner and JP Priest would kill them all before they get to strike back.

[Brother Xeones]

I'm surprised no one mentioned this, then again I haven't seen many players use this tactic, but just "tank shock" the terminators with your Baal predator.

 

Storm shields don't stand a chance, and the squad in the LR would be easy without their ride.

 

 

Quite an interesting idea, but the Thunderhammers do stand a chance, as they autoglance the rhino and probably will squish it into pieces. And if not, they still have a chaplain(fearless) and or Vulkan(LD10) amongst them, so the chance of breaking them is rather low.

 

 

Snorri

 

Well, he did say he was suggesting shocking them with the Baal, though the auto-shaken result from the hammer is a bummer, don't forget that Death or Glory is resolved as a single attack against the vehicle's FRONT armor value. That Thunderhammer is needing 5s to glance in this case. All in all, I still wouldn't recommend it unless you are desperate.

 

Now you could conceivably ram the raider and try to take it out since you could get up to S10 on a boosting Baal if you time it right, but again, this is a rather desperate move.

[nicolo]

Thanks for the comments guys, I do appreciate it. The storm raven is a given, it's just a matter of time before I add it, I just don't like proxying units, personal preference and all, so it may be a minute before I get one. Astorath and squad I feel can easily take the termies as long as I get the charge, unfortunately in this particular game my opponent had some good luck, great timing, and a well maneuvered force, and as such was able to get the charge on me due to my being locked in combat.

I've played vanguard in other lists, but overall for points worth have found a ten man RAS able to do the same job for far less points. Maybe not as easily, but I am a firm believer in you don't have to win pretty, winning ugly is still winning.

A consideration also I am playing with is dropping the furioso libby and drop pod, and replacing it with 3x attack bike with multi meltas and a sang priest on a bike. I am picturing the baal pushing forward flanked by bikes darting in and out taking melta shots, and the rhino w/ 10x ras following behind. This going on while the dev sqd picks on key tgts, and the drop pod with the furioso causes a ruckus behind enemy lines. this leaves me with 2x 10 man jump sqds maneuvering in the wings on tgts or objs, and a reserve 10 man sqd to drop in. I think it will keep my same general playing strategy of in your face from the begining as well as giving me a min of 20 free floating troops to flow where I need them to. As well as since most of the army is extremely maneuverable I can always shift as needed.

Any thoughts?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have no problem using proxy when playtesting a new list versus good friends. I do the same for them when they want to proxy.

 

0b :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I feel kind of dumb as I don't see why tank shocking the termies is a good tactic. They test on leadership 9 so it's not line they will break. I think tank shock works best when you can hit a unit with several vehicles - eldar are good at that one. I'm probably missing something though.

 

0b :lol:

[bloodancient]

If your problem is terms I agree with the VV or HG or SG. You need to bring the power weapons to bear the plus on the HG or VV is you can add SS so just incase. But the SG will probably be cheaper in a pinch.

[the jeske]

Any thoughts?

why do you play a hth build at 2k points without a rhino wall ?

[nicolo]

I'm still kinda new, can u explain what you mean

why do you play a hth build at 2k points without a rhino wall ?

[the jeske]

you have a 2k points list and you play a jump pack build [4 RAS]. you have a single RAS in a pod [again why . if you want to blow up something there are better units to do that , if you want to get in to hth then rhinos or jump packs are a better option].

 

you have a single pred and a single dev squads at 2 k pts. I wouldnt use a single tank at 1k points that chance of it being stuned and doing nothing is too big. I dont realy know against what kind of army builds you play , but against IG or even chaos [which doesnt realy work well at 2k] you should have huge problems anything that shots or cant be out assaulted by RAS[which more or less happens with your last game. RAS cant beat teqs and salamders buffed flamers/melta make the list more shoty then yours].

 

If jump troops at 2 k then either 2 units in support for 2 rhino ones and 4-5 preds or you do use jump units but as suppport units so something like 3 rhinos +jump unit +3-4 pred +VV [but not one that costs 400+points . one fist one power weapon melta is enough].