Heavy Weapons against the Ork Horde?

[jbarket]

Hey guys,

 

While I'm generally against tailoring my list, in my local escalation league, each week we're sent information about who we're playing the next week to tweak and prepare. On Thursday, I'm playing an Ork horde army at 1000pt. I played him at 500pt, and (very narrowly) won thanks to Master of the Forge raining STR10 hell down everywhere.

 

I play Crimson Fists, so my list tends to be Sternguard heavy. My current thought is to use Sternguard's ability to take 2 special weapons per squad to get some fire superiority going. Hellfire rounds would be fantastic at rapid fire range, but once he's within 12" like that, I'm expecting WAAAGH! and then assault, so I want to be blowing him up across the board.

 

What I can't figure out is what to take. I'm so used to playing other Marine players and other shooty armies that I can't wrap my head around this one.

 

Taking two Sternguard squads with 2x heavy flamer in each torching Boyz from the hatches on a Rhino seems like an idea that's really smart or really insane, and I can't figure out which. A PK will definitely blow a Rhino to hell and back, and the Sternguard won't do so well once they're in b2b with all of those Orks.

 

I think I'm better off taking a mixture of HBs and MLs (to blow up Trukks), but I'm really not sure. What would you guys take for Sternguard? Similarly, what would you take in a couple of Tacticals to support them?

[minigun762]

I'd probably just take Sternguard as is. You can use the 30" shots one turn, then the anti-cover or Hellfire the next and Hellfire against just before the assault plus you can always give them a Rhino or Razorback to zoom away in.

 

For Tacs, I think Plasma Cannons are the best all around choice. Cheap and flexible, they make for a great counter to almost every army.

 

For SMs, you have alot of options in your Heavy slots. Whirlwinds, Thunderfire and Dakka Predators are all cheap anti-infantry counters.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Combi-flamers for the sternguard because you'll probably only get the one shot anyway.

 

Tacticals : Missle Launchers

 

Devastators : Heavy Bolters or Missle Launchers

 

Whirlwinds like you wouldn't believe.

 

Anything that ignores cover. A lot of Ork players will take that custom force field to give a 5+ to any squad within 6" (?). And with orks that squad could be 30 boyz, and only one needs to be within that 6"

 

If you run drop pods consider using deathwind launchers.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

best combo for anti orks, is 2 parts whirlwind (2) and 1 part Command squad with 4 flamers in a drop pod with CC capt and libby with avenger and vortex.

or 2 fire bomb command squads and dual CC capts. both in pods, make sure you can get a 3rd pod in there, so you can drop both fire bombs on turn one. by the time, any HORDE work it's way over this speed bump they won't be a horde anymore. promise.

[Grey Mage]

Hey guys,

 

While I'm generally against tailoring my list, in my local escalation league, each week we're sent information about who we're playing the next week to tweak and prepare. On Thursday, I'm playing an Ork horde army at 1000pt. I played him at 500pt, and (very narrowly) won thanks to Master of the Forge raining STR10 hell down everywhere.

 

I play Crimson Fists, so my list tends to be Sternguard heavy. My current thought is to use Sternguard's ability to take 2 special weapons per squad to get some fire superiority going. Hellfire rounds would be fantastic at rapid fire range, but once he's within 12" like that, I'm expecting WAAAGH! and then assault, so I want to be blowing him up across the board.

Dont use hellfire all the time- use Kraken Rounds from turn 1. Seriously.... 30" range, AP 4... makes hard boyz cry.

 

What I can't figure out is what to take. I'm so used to playing other Marine players and other shooty armies that I can't wrap my head around this one.

 

Taking two Sternguard squads with 2x heavy flamer in each torching Boyz from the hatches on a Rhino seems like an idea that's really smart or really insane, and I can't figure out which. A PK will definitely blow a Rhino to hell and back, and the Sternguard won't do so well once they're in b2b with all of those Orks.

 

I think I'm better off taking a mixture of HBs and MLs (to blow up Trukks), but I'm really not sure. What would you guys take for Sternguard? Similarly, what would you take in a couple of Tacticals to support them?

Id taken no heavy weapons for my sterngaurd- I would take three tactical squads with Missile Launchers however, and TLLC Razorbacks wouldnt be amiss for the sterngaurd squads.

 

And Typhoons. Typhoons are amazing vs most armies, but they shine like the sun vs. orks.

 

Oh, and Whirlwinds. You cant go wrong with an 85pt troop muncher like the whirlwind.

 

Edit: wow, I wasnt the first person to recommend whirlwinds. Amazing.

[somogyi]

Two words THUNDERFIRE CANNON. For 100 pts you get 4 small templates a turn, and they can negate cover. If the cannon dies you now have a tech marine, which by the way can bolster defenses. only other thing I would suggest is a whirlwind or two.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Edit: wow, I wasnt the first person to recommend whirlwinds. Amazing.

yeah, well, YOU sold the idea, and it got tested, and re tested.. and yeah, i always bring it, and included in any Alt list i make for game night.

i really really want to start running them in a pair, I've been using it (the whirlwind) to double tap, who ever my x4 Plasma cannon devastators are firing on. I've found that they(the unit that got the attention) is either gone, pinned or running away.

 

back on topic, another great unit, because orks tend to only have a single PK in each mob, is a Ven Dread with Heavy Flamer, Twinlink Heavy flamer, and Extra armor. you can use the Auto hit templates to carve out that PK's Nob and with your re-rolls on the damage table, plus your ws5 good for making orks go bye bye

[Hellios]

I'm no sold on heavy flamers for the Sternguard and I'll tell you why... YOU HAVE LET THE ORKS GET TOP CLOSE!

 

Now what I do like in general (maybe on the SG... maybe not...) Missile Launchers... but remember to call them Rocket launchers because missiles have miss in them! Now you can pop anything the Orks have... might not be easy on a BW but you can do it... anyway it is Things like Boomwagons (for destruction) and trukks (for transportation) you need to worry about and you have those sorted. and onbiously you can frag infantry...

 

However if you want something to make those orks squishy before you charge them (and you want to charge them once they get close!)... combi-flamers... all the normal SG goodness from various magic rounds for the first few turns (where a heavy flamer would be out of range) if you think that 2 combi-flamer shots isn't enough then take 4 XD in a squad! SO yer I would stay back and shoot and then as they get near you decide if you want to get into the rhino sit tight and take their charge or drive off so you can get into a better position to shoot them again.

 

Lets see what else is good! I'll start at the HS...

 

Whirlwind/Vindicator Ok both drop templates on people... the biggest difference is that the Vindicator is better at killing hard things by causing ID to nobs (and the Warboss) and destroying puny ork vehicles... the Whirlwind is also good because it is cheaper... has longer range so you should be in from turn 1 (although a vindicator might be) you have two fire types... one which will burn boyz out of bushes and another with better AP for things like Ard Boyz and Nobz in eavy armour...

 

My advice for using this would be (depending on deployment type) make a tight defence on one side with your army in one corner so when he attacks he has to bunch in to get to you with all his units (and everyone will be in pedro range!) so you can template him to death and he might not be able to get everyone with in 2 inches and so they won't get attacks in CC... and now the totally ground breaking bit.... place your Whirlwind in your other corner... (behind cover if you think the Orks have enough Firepower... don't bother otherwise)... now he has a choice he ignores your whirlwind and it templates him as he forms great big blobs of orks (for pie templating) as he bundles you... or he can spread out/split his forces which makes it easier for your main force and if he kills your Whirlwind after it has made 2 or 3 shots... oh well it will have most likely made its points back in kills not to mention tactical advantage!

 

Dakka Predator... again could be good able to take out ork vehicles and infantry but I prefer the pie templates... Land Raiders... while good in 1,000 points where you already have vets maybe not the best unit for now...

 

Thunderfire Cannon... yep this is pretty good and you can Work it in much the same way as the Whirlwind if you wish...

 

Dev Squad... pretty obvious but not the most bang for your buck!

 

Fast Attack...

 

Scout Bikers aint bad with TL bolters who cares if they are BS3! They are fast, they are cheap (compared to bikers) and can be again used to cause a distraction by annoying the enemy and maybe even getting behind them... equip with a combi-flamer to get rid of lootas sitting on the back of the board in cover... a power fist if you have got to but against orks I wouldn't think it is needed for the roll it should be doing... if you need more dakka grenade launchers can be taken... and snare mines can mess up a large Ork mob... either in a bit of terrain they have got to cross or go around on the way to your main force or maybe in a bit of terrain you are defending as long as you plan on standing still (well technically you can move but you can't move in once outside it!)... that way when they charge... boom

 

A Land speeder storm scout squad could do the same kind of job as well... obviously no snare mines :'( although it would be a bit of a risk flying straight at lootas ;)

 

Land speeders! Well a Typhoon is great... and assault cannons like the typhoon can kill both armour and tanks... heavy flamers and heavy bolters are also worth considering...

 

What I will say is some of these fast units are worth considering if you want to take a small defensive position in a corner, not only for the disruption methids I've mentioned with the Scout bikers (anything fast and shooty could do that) but they will also allow you to contest places far away if you need to while with luck whatever else you have will be able to get the closer ones (yourside/middle board).

 

Elites... Well you already know about sternguard...

 

Dreadnoughts Ok are you going to pod or be static? If you are going to pod into or behind the enemy then I would go with a CC Ironclad with a heavy flamer... If you want a static (or supporting it can move up with your army) dread then do you want a support dread or a shooty dread... for a shooty dread you can't go wrong with two twin-linked auto-cannon dread if you have the points knock yourself out... make it venerable! If support you basically take a shooty weapon and a CC weapon and I'm sure you can work out what you want from normal and venerable but if you think it will get in CC it is worth considering the AV13 of the Ironclad... replace its melta with a heavy flamer and give it the hurricane bolters and it will be able to support you against infantry at range :huh:

 

So as you see the SM codex has a lot of options against Orks... which is best... well that is up to you my friend ^_^

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Dreadnoughts are not so good a choice against orks unless you're running, say, a Rifleman or an autocannon/missile launcher Mortis. CC Dreads don't have the number of attacks necessary to carve through big squads of Boyz in close combat, and the longer they're bogged down killing just one or two orks per turn is another turn that A.) you're not boltering them to death, and B.) another couple chances for power klaws to rip that dread apart. An Ironclad might be a decent investment, so long as you leave the HK missiles at home but bring both heavy flamers -- and I suggest a pod for this guy so you can drop him right where he's needed to thin the herd with those heavy flamer templates.

 

And I cannot say enough about the utility of the Thunderfire Cannon against ork armies; its basically designed to slaughter boyz by the dozen. Surface rounds wound on 2+s and deny armor saves to all but Nobz, Bosses, and 'Ard Boyz; airburst rounds force cover-hugging orks to use their worse armor save, plus they are perfect for driving gretchin off of objectives since they rely on their improved cover saves to stay alive; and subterranean rounds will slow any mob down a bit, though I'd recommend using them only on nob bikers or the copter-thingies since you'll get more utility out of spreading wounds on them for Dangerous Terrain tests than you will out of forcing foot-slogging boyz to take Difficult Terrain tests. Plus, its a bare 100 points (and 75 of that is the Techmarine, who comes with a 2+ save and flamer template for backup).

 

But since you asked specifically about heavy weapon upgrades, I will say that I've always been a fan on the notoriously under-valued heavy bolter. A minimum squad of Devs with four heavy bolters -- if you must give the sergeant a gun, a stormbolter would fit in -- isn't too expensive and will scythe down orks like its nobody's business. Sternguard I would leave without heavy weapons and rely on their special ammo as has already been touched on, but Tactical Squads would good use of a flamer and missile launcher.

[Tanhausen]

Some great and indepth comments above!

 

Do you know if the Ork is going transport-heavy? If he carries 2 wagons and 2 trucks, you NEED long range AT (shooty dread probably the best option, along with dakka preds and shooty LS (HB+AC).

 

If he's footslogging... vindicator and whirlwind are your friends, along with anything with S5+ and a lot of dakka: HB and AC being the stars.

 

Best anti-horde weapon? Hurricane bolters in the LRC... I love them, love them, love them!

[hazardousZERO]

Take an assault squad with 2 flamers. They will die but if you get the charge on him they will do alot of damage before they do. Also just make them as cheep as you can like a 10 man squad with 2 flamers and maby a SGT with a power weapon. Then all you have too do is charge him after you rost him with a template or 2. It will help distract the orks who will pile in more units too kill that one assault squad. The whole time this ia going on the rest of your army is shooting the crap outta him.

 

Another thought try a Ironclad dread with 2 CCW and 2 Heavy Flamers in a drop pod. Turn one drop in and turn some orks too BBQ. With ether suggestion you get the same effect a unit to tie up the orks wile doing as much damage as you can before the orks can get too close.

[jbarket]

Thanks so much for all of the replies guys.

 

Two things I really should have mentioned: it's seize ground and Pedro Kantor is my HQ, so the Sternguard are scoring units. This is one of the big reasons I want to sink points into 2x Tacticals and 3x Sternguard... I can keep the Tacticals at 10 man and still have a significant number of scoring units.

 

Also, I don't own any support, haha. No Whirlwinds, Vindis or Preds. I do have a LRC laying around that I could blast him with, but in a 1000pt game, that's insanely expensive. However, it would give me a scoring LR, which is something he probably won't be able to deal with.

 

I didn't get a chance to see him play this past week (which was also 1000pt), but so far he's just sent Boyz down the field on foot and sent a Warboss with a bunch of Nobz out in a Trukk. Blowing up that Trukk and slowing down the Nobz is a huge concern, which is why I like the MLs for the Tacticals.

 

I considered taking my Ironclad with dual HFs in a pod. It doesn't have enough attacks to really do anything in a short amount of time, but it can tie him up.

 

In the end, I figured the best approach was to load heavy with troops (and a couple of Razorbacks) and sit back and shoot. When he's close enough to WAAGH! and assault in, do whatever I can to make him fall short, then light him up and counter assault.

 

My only issue with leaving the Sternguard alone is the number of shots. Orks are easy to wound, so Hellfire is really overkill for the most part. I can hit them with one shot each at 30", but if they load up with Heavy Bolters, that means I'm getting 6 shots per Sternguard squad at 36", then 9 per squad at 30" (rather than just 5). It greatly limits my ability to move and shoot, but since he is entirely CC oriented, I don't think that's a huge issue if I can deploy on or very near enough objectives, or can get there before he's within 36".

 

I'm not sure about mobility versus the potential to kill more Orks. I'm generally against taking anything with Sternguard but combis and heavy flamers, but with the units I own, it seems like a very inexpensive way to add 6 heavy weapons for the same price of 6 combi shots.

[Gearhead]

<---Fellow Crimson Fists Player. No whirlys for you makes me very sad.

 

If the only vehicle has has is the Trukk, that's your piority one target. Get everything walking and everything gets easier. Even if you don't get it turn one, you might get another shot. By this point, it'll likely be ahead of his force and isolated, so you can get it then.

 

Nothing kills hordes like blasts and template weapons, so Missile Launcher/Flamer isn't a bad setup (and cheap). Take advantage of Kraken Rounds when you can; take it from a Tau player, 30" is quite a ways. I woulnd't completely commit yourself to bottling up, always have an escape planned. I've found that Pedro kind of fights like a little girl, so have him blow kisses from a vehicle while everyone gets his 12" bubble.

 

Something I've done to our ork plyer is: right before he can charge you, move the rhinos up and flame from the top, but stay inside. You'll kill some of them, but not all. In all likelyhood, He'll assault and blow up the Rhinos. Explosions will hurt him on the outside much more than you on the inside, pass a check, shoot and flame him again, and charge to keep him from getting furious charge. It's really risky (can loose the squad if he only gets a 5), but i've often found that that six rolls up more often than not, and then he's hurt himself and helped you get out of the rhino to assault him.

 

I would not reccomend that as "Plan A", but it's a nice tactical trick when it needs doing. Basically, tkae out that ruck and blast him; looks like everything he has is scoring (boss lets nobz be troops), so if you break a squad just let it run. Can't score if you're falling back, and they're essentially out of the game from that point.

[jbarket]

That was my strategy in our last game. I got the Nobz to break (thanks to MOTF being a monster), and that solved my problem of being completely unable to handle them in fisticuffs.

 

Pedro does well for me most weeks, but yeah, I have no expectations versus the Nobz or the Warboss.

 

Ideal situation is to blow up the truck, then bring Orbital Bombardment down. With that threat gone, it's a lot less problematic.

 

I hadn't considered that him blowing up transports would help me out, but that seems pretty obvious. If he rolls a 6, that'll clear out some room. I don't think I'm going to push my luck there, but if I'm going to lose a transport, it's something to shoot for.

 

Serious question on WWs, do you guys find them useful in higher point games? When I first started playing, I was all I'M BUYING WW SPRUES TO CONVERT ALL OF MY RHINOS, but since then, it's become a really subjective choice to me. It and the Thunderfire Cannon both... no idea what they could really do for me once we're at enough points that all of their troops will be inside transports. Having either would really compliment my "Oh, you thought cover helped you?" strategy with Sternguard, but 5/4 or 4/5 ignoring cover... I have to pop them before I can shoot them, and once they're out, there are lots of places to get firepower in the codex.

 

For the same points I could get a dakka Predator and be tossing 8 shots down the field, 2 of which could actually pierce armor.

 

I really, really want some pie plate support, but I can't sell myself on anything.

[thade]

People are gonna flame the crap out of me for this, but...if you're making an anti-ork static-gunline.....

 

Heavy Bolters. Everybody hates them, but they are pretty good vs Orks. I'd fill a dev squad up with them. Or, alternatively, give each of my tac squads a heavy bolter (as it's their job to fire at infantry) and dev squads MLs (as it's thus their job to pop Trukks). Combat squad hte dev squad (two trukk popping units) and dakka like crazy.

[Ming]

My blog is forever looking at how to deal with the ork horde in all its toughest varients. Pedro certainly helps.

 

If he has no Kans - all sergeants should have a power weapon rather than a fist and have a combi-flamer.

 

Overall, dual whirlwinds can help.

 

Sternguard are great, but fragile if he gets a big charge in.

 

Keep Kantor protected in a bubblewrap behind the front line. He dies too easy. You NEED the inspiration he brings once the boot gets stuck in.

 

Whirlwinds are great, especially since some missile types IGNORE COVER, negating the KFF.

 

You need as many bodies and blast and template weapons as possible. Our experiments actually seem to indicate a HB is better than a ML if your opponent is good and keeping his model distances. Pops more boyz more reliably.

 

Always buy the razorback or whirlwind model boxes, never a rhino by itself.

 

All for now, good luck!

[Tanhausen]

Blowing up a single truck is easy peasy: just devote a couple missiles/lasscannons/meltas and hes immo or worse.

 

As for mopping the rest... Hurricane bolter and anything that uses a template. I agree that WW is golden in that situation.

[mowglie]

The LRC is probably an unfriendly move. Orks have basically nothing that can touch it in the shooting phase. His PK warboss is probably the only thing in his entire army that can realistically hurt it.

 

Wouldn't recommend doing that in a friendly league!

 

If you do, I'd pop a squad of scouts in it rather than sternguard. The sternguard are a massive waste of points if they're not firing their special ammo, and you'd be surprised how well 5 CCW scouts do vs weakened boyz squads. They give you options too - if the scenario calls for it you can put a tacsquad in there instead and assault his lootas with your scouts, or run it empty if it's KP.

 

Sternguard and Flamer+Combi tactical squads are both very very good vs Orks.

[Hellios]

The LRC is probably an unfriendly move. Orks have basically nothing that can touch it in the shooting phase. His PK warboss is probably the only thing in his entire army that can realistically hurt it.

 

It depends how lucky he is :rolleyes: if he is lucky with Zzap guns or Shokk attack guns just go home XD oh and deathrollas are good for sorting out raiders, but yes point conceded.

[Tanhausen]

I wasn't aware of "Friendly Game" enviroment. The tourneys I usually attend are quite competitive... and with a population of around 60-80 regulars, 4-8 people tend to take all the top 3s.

 

I really think the best shooting unit Orkz have are their Lootas (or however they are called in English: 1D3 S7 shots per model). 2 squads, 15 men strong, and the pound and pound and pound...

 

In friendly games, besides 3-5 AT weapons (not much more needed if he only takes a truck), I'd try and get as many template/blast weapons as possible. Or go the Heavy Bolter/Assault Cannon way...

 

BTW, just a funny experience: in my last tourney, 1 lone PK boss assaulted my combat speed LRC... 3 attacks, he needed 4+ to hit, 5+ to glance... guess what: the LRC exploded! xD So much for mathhammer!

[Captain Idaho]

Honour Guard eat Orks for Breakfast! Take a squad of 5, throw in a Relic blade on the Champion and a Chapter Banner, accompany with the Master with preferably a Relic blade and then voila, minced Ork meat served all round.

[thade]

The LRC is probably an unfriendly move. Orks have basically nothing that can touch it in the shooting phase. His PK warboss is probably the only thing in his entire army that can realistically hurt it.

 

Ummm...No offense intended, but how many times have you played against a competent Ork Player? @_@

 

A pack of Nobs with Power Klaws do an INSANE number of attacks on the charge and are Str 9 due to Furious Charge. They have a very, very good chance of glancing a LR to death. I've seen it happen many times.

 

Use the LRC and keep it away from said-nobz. The thing is a gunboat and you'll be happy you didn't leave it at home.

[jbarket]

Well, it's a costs-money-to-win-money league, so I don't know that friendly rules apply. I have a general, overall goal to not be the guy playing something that's so ridiculous it's unfun to play against, but when we get up to 1850, I fully expect a lot of nightmarish armies.

 

Plus I played an army with a Blood Thirster loaded out like nobody's business at 750, haha. I had no solid answer for it at that point value, and I didn't think anything of it.

 

I don't own any scouts, but I do own an assault squad. I could drop the jump packs and load them in there fairly cheaply with Pedro, then never have Pedro leave the boat. Or a tactical and have a scoring LR without wasting the Sternguard's shooting.

 

I am worried about the Nobz loadout though. This is the big problem. If I can orbital bombardment that squad into dust, it'll be no problem. If I can't, it's going to be another episode of Crimson Cowards run away-shoot run away-shoot.

[Grey Mage]

Well just be sure to askwhat the nobz have- if most of them are armed with uge choppas your fine.

[thade]

Well just be sure to askwhat the nobz have- if most of them are armed with uge choppas your fine.

 

Haha, in this case, Tank Shock! the Nobz with the LR until they run away.