Help with 1000 pt. Vanilla SM Army.

[Cpt. Tiberious]

Vanilla Marine List entries...

(Keep in mind I'm a noob when it comes to actually PLAYING the game lol, please bare with me.)

 

Space marine Captain

Frag & Krak Grenades

Iron Halo

Bolter

Artificer Armor

Relic Blade

Digital Weapons

 

155 pts.

 

ATTACHED TO...

 

Vanguard Veteran Squad

(Vet Sgt. & 4 Veteran Marines)

Power Armor x5

Frag & Krak Grenades x5

Bolt Pistol x5

Power Weapon x5

 

Razorback APC

Smoke Launchers

Searchlight

Extra Armor

Twin-Linked Assault Cannon

 

275 pts.

 

My thoughts on this particular unit is to use it as a high mobility, high lethality close combat element. This is how I intend to use this particular setup.....

 

Turn 1: Move with the unit embarked in the APC, stopping 12" from enemy unit, pivot around 180 degrees, pop smoke if deemed necessary .

 

Turn 2: Disembark unit and move 6" toward enemy unit. Shoot with bolt pistols, bolter, and TLAC at enemy unit I intend to assault. CHARGE! Mop up survivors with power weapon spam.

 

Rules wise, this would work. However this is best case scenario, as the likelihood of the Razorback's smoke saving it from everything the enemy will undoubtedly throw at it is a tricky subject, depending on how much anti-vehicle weaponry he has on the field in range.

 

I detest the use of Jumppack because frankly I hate the way a marine looks with a jet engine strapped to his back, so a transport is the way I would like to go. I use the Vanguard Squad instead of assault marines because of the extra attacks, and the ability to outfit every marine with a power weapon. Very expensive I know but ignoring armor saves when play against other Marine armies, especially Chaos, is great.

 

My questions are: Would this be a prudent strategy to use? Would this be better suited for a Rhino instead of a Razorback?

 

Any tips to make this work are welcome.

 

(Sorry bout that.)

[jbarket]

It's a solid plan. I'm a huge fan of Razorbacks. Depending on what your points look like overall, you may even just take the default load out. Being able to fire 3 HB shots into a crowd before you launch your assault can really help thin the herd.

 

One thing to be careful about is shooting your way out of being able to assault. With a handful of boltgun shots and a handful of HB shots, if you get enough wounds, your opponent may be able to remove enough models from the front of his mob to keep you from getting into b2b. Then he's going to get a turn of shooting at you, and can counter assault.

 

You also might consider getting distance wise where you can launch your assault from the side doors. The Razorback is already pretty weak AV wise, so pointing AV10 at the enemy lines is the only part of your strategy that seems like it's asking for trouble.

[Cpt. Tiberious]

The heavy bolter was temping but I was fixed on having the assault cannon mounted on it for..well.....assaulting things. Plus the ability to shooting 4 shots Rending with re-rolls was WAY to awesome to pass up. The rest of my force is comprised of...

 

-10 tac squad set up for general purpose with a flamer and ML

-10 man tac squad in a rhino set up for tank hunting with a melta + multimelta combo

-Dread set up with an assault cannon and a ML so he can be anit-vehicle and anti-infantry.

 

Those, plus the Captain+Vanguard Retinue in a Razorback. Looks to be a pretty good 1000 pt. list. Each unit has it's own role, but can be tasked with other things.

 

I may just use the Assault Cannon to deal most of my shooting damage instead of just opening up with the whole squad. That way I can stay mobile with my squad I.E.: Disembark, move, then Run up to about 3" shy of the enemy. That way if my Razorback gets 4 of 4 possible kills, I can still declare the charge. This decision can only be made if the situation dictates though.

 

You do raise an interesting point about the whole "Look at my tanks weakest side" part of the plan. I completely forgot about the side hatches of the Razorback lol. 6 guys should be able to pile out within 2" on the sides no problem and still be able to close the gap quickly. Thanks for bringing that up.

 

Should I post the full list? It wouldn't be specifically topic related, but I really wanna pull this strat off without breaking my army.

[LardO'Blood]

I don't think thats legal. Correct me if Im wrong but the rulebook states that one cannot assault on the turn you disembark. Try stopping 13 inches away and embarking behind the razorback to block LoS waiting for the next turn. The only vehicles in C:SM that units can assault from are LSS (land speeder storms, scouts only) and the land raider variants (only terminators can take as a dedicated transport though)

[Grey Mage]

Your wrong :P.

 

You can disembark and assault if the transport hasnt yet moved that turn.

 

At the OP: Why pivot 180'? Seems a recipe for disaster to give them the free AV 10 shot. Just pivot about 90' *powerslide* and get out your side hatch.

[DAwarrior43]

One other thing, your captain can't shoot a bolter and charge as it is a rapid-fire weapon and not an assault weapon. So it would be better to give him either a bolt pistol or a combi weapon of some type.

[Xeonic]

He doesn't have to fire his bolter(as it would prevent him from assaulting), but with a Relic Blade there's little reason to swap for a pistol(unless you care about 1 pre-assault bolt shot?) as it can never get an offhand bonus. Sure he'd be more potent at range with a combi or hellfire rounds but the bolter is cheap as chips(free as in beer?) and will give him a little ranged punch.

 

On topic though, I've used a similar tactic with my CC command squad, drive up(getting a coversave from rhinos on teh way in), pop smoke, and next turn assault. It's a bit hit or miss, but fluffy and fun for fun "basement" games. I just use a razor with a TLHB, or just a rhino.

 

I don't like the idea of a squad without at least a couple ablative wounds. I suggest you drop a power weapon or two and give the sarge a Power Fist or Relic Blade to act as another heavy hitter to support the captain. Of course it's personal preference, but if I were running such a squad, I'd use a Relic Blade sarge, Powerfist vet, Storm Shield vet, and two extra guys to act as wounds(maybe one lightning claw vet though). With a lightning claw vet you'd have total control over wound allocation, and single lightning claws generally *slightly* outperforms power weapons(as per my post Here).

Actually, If I were running a 5 man vanvet squad with a captain and no JPs, I'd seriously consider command squad instead(cheaper base to boot). No Relic Blade Sarge option and you can't deck out either the apoth or the champion any further, but FnP and you have a WS5 squad leader with an invuln instead. You could even use mostly the same models, as they're also veterans.

[DAwarrior43]

Turn 2: Disembark unit and move 6" toward enemy unit. Shoot with bolt pistols, bolter, and TLAC at enemy unit I intend to assault. CHARGE! Mop up survivors with power weapon spam.

 

I'm just going off what he said Xeonic, I don't know whether or not he is aware of the rule

[mowglie]

There's been a lot of debate on this (search for threads about assault units in razorbacks in general), but my instinct is to say "no" to a 430pt assault unit in an AV11 box.

 

There are three reasons.

 

First up, I don't like your VV build. Without getting any use out of heroic intervention pretty much any other assault unit in the codex is better - particularly a similarly built command squad (less killy, but cheaper and FNP) or honour guard (more killy) who have the double advantage of not eating a FA slot. Maybe even a regular assault squad (who are much cheaper and get a free Rhino), depending on the targets you want to assault.

 

Second, the viability of the razorback as an assault transport is questionable. As I say this has been discussed a lot before, but the primary disadvantages are that at AV11 it's easy to stop and thus strand a hefty chunk of your army in midfield, and that you have to telegraph your assault target on the previous turn. If your opponent doesn't want you to assault whatever you're trying to assault (and he shouldn't if you've picked your target correctly), he pretty much always has a way out because he has a whole turn to react - by moving away or by destroying the transport. To really guarantee getting an assault on the following turn you have to be within about 6" on your previous turn, which makes you vulnerable to a wrecked result while surrounded. It's a different story when your entire army consists of assault threats in razorbacks, but when your opponent can single out probably your only assault threat and deal with it as easily as popping a rhino, it's not good.

 

Third, the general feeling of the community (though again there's plenty of debate) is that for ~450 points a unit of TH/SS terminators in a LR is better than any of the power-armoured choices in the codex - mostly because the kind of targets you want to charge rather than shoot tend to need those double-strength weapons to effectively deal with.

[thade]

I see that Captain load-out a lot; he comes in the AoBR set.

 

GM is on the money there; don't show them your rear. I honestly wouldn't put them in a Razorback either, as the transport is very likely going to die anyway, esp if it's carrying an assault team to the front line. A Rhino's job is to 1. Move forward as far as you can, 2. Pop smoke, 3. Pray, 4. If you're still mobile, move forward as far as you can or need to now, orienting near the target. 5. Pray (and die)

 

The transport will take double the fire because it's carrying an IC and an expensive payload. As for them sitting in it and waiting a turn before piling out to assault, that is a fine idea (Khorne Zerker players have been doing it for years) but given the payload, you might want to at least make sure there's something else for your opponent to worry about on the table (e.g. a handful of Vindicators). And/or put the Vanguard instead into a LRC.

 

Razorbacks are great carriers for sternguard or ranged command squads, as then they themselves can stay at range and offer some fire support if needed. (It will still die, but not as early as the one that's right in the opponent's face.)

[Cpt. Tiberious]

Well I guess that Idea is going out the window lol. Back to the drawing board.

[thade]

Shame on me for not commenting on the Vanguard build.

 

For an effective Vanguard, you want this:

- At least six marines.

- For every five to six marines, one of them has a storm shield and no other upgrades.

- For every marine with an upgrade (PW, single LC, PF, whatever) there is at least one other marine that has NO upgrades.

 

We call the non-upgraded marines "ablative wounds". They are there so your power weapons don't have to take piles of saves for every set of shots and attacks they soak.

 

As to what gear to give them, consider what their role is:

- If you are not BA, don't give them jump packs and DS them expecting Heroic Intervention to be awesome. It will fail you. Often.

- If you want them to hang behind your line and deliver devastating/decisive counter charges to save your gunline, you might give them jump packs...this is, however, VERY expensive. Too expensive, in my mind. Instead, give them a transport. A Rhino works. A LR is better (and pretty effective).

- If you want them to kill infantry, then give several of them single Lightning Claws (not pairs).

- If you want them to pop vehicles, give several of them Power Fists.

- Don't spam them with Melta Bombs; use something else to crack AV14.

 

You don't have to give them weapon upgrades at all; if you do want them to have jump packs, consider just running them with JPs and NO other upgrades (maybe a single power fist). They will do a massive volume of attacks on the charge.

 

Non-upgraded marines should take saves before anybody else; allocate wounds to them first.

The guy with the storm shield exists to soak PW hits; he might survive to soak more of them later so that your ablative wounds survive (helping your upgrades marines to survive in the long run).

 

They - like all assault squads - are best for *counter* charging. Don't send them downfield alone and expect them to tear everything apart. (If you do this, they'd better number 9-10 and be in a LR. Even then, don't expect miracles.) When they do counter charge, it's awesome; they'll wipe almost any other infantry unit in the game in short order.

[Cpt. Tiberious]

To thade: Thanks for the strategy input man, much appreciated. I revised the main assault element a little bit and it goes as follows....

 

Space Marine Captain

Frag & Krak Grenades

Iron Halo

Storm Bolter

Artificer Armor

Relic Blade

Melta Bombs

 

150 pts.

 

Attached to....

 

Assault Squad

(Sgt. & 8 Assault Marines)

Power Armor x9

Frag & Krak Grenades x9

Bolt Pistol x8

Chainsword x8

Power Sword x1

Flamer x1

 

Rhino APC

Smoke Launchers

Searchlight

Storm Bolter x2

 

207 pts.

 

(Guess I'll have to change the name of the thread lol.)

 

the other things on the table are...

 

-10 man with Meltagun, Multi-Melta, and Melta Bombs x2 (Mmmmm...Slag! lol)

-Dread with DCCW with Storm Bolter and Assault Cannon x2

 

I think this will now be a "Help a noob make a 1000 pt. Vanilla Army"

 

Let me know what to change and what to keep guys. Thanks

[thade]

You could make that Assault Squad a vanilla Vanguard (no upgrades) and you'd find they don't cost THAT much more and are surprisingly effective. The assault squad will also work tho; I recommend trying them both out.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

how about.. you stop looking for that magical combo that is unstoppable, and make a list that you think is fun to play. Play it. repeat. repeat again. in fact i would test play any build, you have, at LEAST 5 times, before making any kind of adjustment.

As for starting out and being new to table top war games..? i would point you towards playing a demi company build.

Now, playing at 1000pts, that would be more like 1/4 of a full company, then half, but this is about what it should look like.

The Demi company build, is simple, yet sublime. Its 1 hq,3 troops,1Fa,1Hv. or 1/3/1/1, now the fluffy version of this, it that you have 10 marines in each unit, so you can run two 5 man devastators, or 5 Land speeders (2 marines, x5=10) and just the same have the number you need to last in a fire fight. Personally if i was going to start over and relocate, i would run a full, and geared for any and all comers, scout scout, as my 1st troop choice then have a pair of full tacticals in rhinos or droppod

 

For under a 1000pts. it would be something like:

hq:your choice, most put a jump pack on a libby, or chappy, and run it with an assault squad. (125)

Troops: 2 ten man tactical squads in rhinos/pods, flamers+missile launcher+power fist (460)

Fast Attack:(1) 5 man Assault squad. Flamer+sgt with Storm shield and Melta bomb. (130)

Heavy support: (2) 5 man devastator squads with 2 heavy weapons of your choice. (180 before weapons)

you won't have enough points to field x4 laser cannons, but you could run x4 plasma cannons. another option would be to run x4 missile launchers, 2 in each, and have 40 points left over for more war gear.

@thade, +1 about the RAW jump packed Vanguard, with the exception of, you really should take that cheap thunder hammer, your all ready paying for the power weapon. if not that, a couple of 3 melta bombs. kinda of a Codex version of termincide

[thade]

@thade, +1 about the RAW jump packed Vanguard, with the exception of, you really should take that cheap thunder hammer, your all ready paying for the power weapon. if not that, a couple of 3 melta bombs. kinda of a Codex version of termincide

 

Ah, I neglected to mention: NO squad leaves one of my battle barges without a Power Fist. Evey sergeant has one, with remarkably few exceptions. So, yes...that "pure vanilla" Vanguard would have at least a power fist.

 

A Thunderhammer? Sure, if I had five points kickin around.