Debauchery101 Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 so after a few test games trying to make a decent ard boys chaos marines list i just gave up. i just keep getting mauled by too much artillery or out manourvered by guards, eldar and tau. also with the new dark eldar codex coming out i dunno what ima do with the chaos marines. i knew theyd be nerfed to hell being the first codex for 5th edition rules after having been argueably the strongest in 4th ed. but anyways i made this list and had the chance to go against an armored fist list similar to the leaf blower but minus the flyers. just more vets in transports. i did quite well and also beat a tyranids player with too many stealers and hive guards. i think the main flaw with this list is the lack of durable hth fighters but with luck and timing i was able to coordinate my charges when some units were about to get eliminated to best use the mobile slaanesh hth units. the plague bearers did great surviving to let me lock on with deep striking and the small unit of screamers was ignored by the IG player to his medusa's and basilisk's peril. i am wondering about how to best use demons vs armies like space wolves and marines with drop pods would like some critique or advice on this list. thanks fate weaver masque flamers x6 flamers x 6 fiends x 6 horrors x 10 bolt, changeling horrors x 10 bolt plague bearers x 7 icon plague bearers x 7 icon demonettes x 10 gaze screamers x4 seekers x 8 gaze seekers x 8 gaze demon prince wings, mon, touch, flies demon prince wings, mon, touch, flies Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212629-ard-boys-worthy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Darkshade Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 What do you intend to run your split as? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212629-ard-boys-worthy/#findComment-2529610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debauchery101 Posted October 6, 2010 Author Share Posted October 6, 2010 well i dont normally have a set way of splitting since this is a newer list for me but for the two games i have played i chose it this way.... group A fateweaver flamers horrors screamers plague bearers demon prince demon prince group B masque demonettes steeds steeds fiends flamers plague bearers horrors with changelings the tactics i had in mind for group A would be to put the demon princes on the flanks to go after any transports or fire support vehicles hanging on the corners. hoping to also split fire or hth rushing i would position the flamers and screamers unit to back up the princes the rest would be depoyed around the fateweaver to provide a safe point of entry for squads id use to capture objectives and likely be in a spot for optimal fire support or at a choke point i would choose this first for armored lists group b i would drop my steeds and fiends on the flanks to go for light vehicles or transports and pop out any troops and bog them down in hth my plague bearers and horrors would be deployed as a safe point of entry for my other troops and fate weaver in a choke point or close to cover the flamers and demonettes with masque would be deplyed for support of the flanks or drive into the center i would choose this group for most troop heavy armies basically when i play i set my flanks with nasty units to divert firing and troop movements and when i get reserves i try to push into the center or pick off specialized units that the opponent has only one of. while keeping my horrors and plague bearrers in the rear for objectives. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212629-ard-boys-worthy/#findComment-2529763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 In my eyes, its odd you are having success with this list since it has alot of units I'm not a fan of. If its working for you thats awesome, I'm just surprised. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212629-ard-boys-worthy/#findComment-2530010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debauchery101 Posted October 7, 2010 Author Share Posted October 7, 2010 In my eyes, its odd you are having success with this list since it has alot of units I'm not a fan of. If its working for you thats awesome, I'm just surprised. thats such a vague and unsupported answer... care to expand on your opinion as to why youre surprised? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212629-ard-boys-worthy/#findComment-2530149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Darkshade Posted October 7, 2010 Share Posted October 7, 2010 Strickly my opinon here but you may want to give it a go around in a playtesting game. I would give yourself a more aggressive split with emphasis on first wave survivablity and using Fateweavers special. Group A fateweaver DP DP horrors with changelings horrors screamers plague bearers plague bearers group B masque demonettes steeds steeds fiends flamers Flamers The only switch is I moved the flamers from your orginal group A to B and in thier stead moved horrors from B to A. An last I moved your 15th squad (choosing the Plagues to group A). The less in reserves the better. As a general rule of thumb for daemons you need to be aggressive and (pardon the pun) have faith that your perfered list will appear having a 2/3 odds it will. In a game of chance always play to your odds. Luck should never be a calculation and you should never be to timid to get down someones throat. What this change does is maximizes your survivablity by front loading your saves on your perfered wave. There by giving you a great chance of making your inv saves by giving you more 4+ then 5+. In addition with fateweaver you get rerolls on the higher 4+ over 5+ giving you even more survivablity. With a perferred wave roll you need to find a point in your opponents line and hit it hard. Over kill it if you need to. I have seen some players who will put most of their stuff in one area and then some in another to try and "not waste shots or hits". this is a mistake. You need to play to your odds and as a daemon army your already playing at half strength out of the gate. So you need to pit your half army against his flanked 1/4 army. Could you blow it all up in one round? Ehhh possible but not likely. Could you be left open for shooting the next turn? Probablity is high but this is again why we are front loading all our high saves in our perfered wave to give you that survivablity we will need to counter the first (err second) round of shooting. Also with this wave you have front loaded your tank hunting bolts and screamers. Screamers hunt tanks. So you don't want them appearing on turn 3 or later when the game is almost over to pop a tank (most tourney games never make it to 4 or 6 turns). You need it popped early on. Also suicide flamers do no good against tanks (well thier not good at it atleast). You need your first wave to pop transports open so that your suicide flamers can drop in (in later turns) and toast the troops inside. Having them in the first wave is handing your opponent free reign to shoot them before they get to shoot themsleves. The only defensive thing you should be doing in your perferred wave is maybe a squad (or 2 if you really think you need it) of plague bearers on your home objective. Really that second squad of plaguebearers should be lined up as much as you can in front of DPs and FW to prevent charges, and have Icon nearby for reinforcements for FW cause trust me. People will be gunning for him. With a non-perferred wave roll, you need to drop and use the run of that drop to get in cover. Then on next turn you can use your movement and huge threat bubble to lock down shooty elements so the rest of your army can come in. Again I would recommend finding a weak flank and sticking to it. Have the plan of what the meat of your army is going to do before your drop first wave and stick to it. Use your speend units like fiends and Seekers to lock in fleeing units or shooting threats (assault the shooty, shoot the assualty. If thier fleeing it's cause they want to shoot you). In the end be aggressive get down your opponents throat and don't let go and protect your FW. 2DPs should be enough (these three should be treated as a squad). but you never know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212629-ard-boys-worthy/#findComment-2530387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debauchery101 Posted October 7, 2010 Author Share Posted October 7, 2010 i thank you for your advice man. i understand what youre saying completely and most of the points you made i use often. i will try that split for sure and focus on using the dps and fateweaver together. it kind of dawned on me that no matter what i do people will go for him or for my dps no matter what i do weather i just throw them away at the opponent or guard them and rally around fateweaver. i just need to know when to do what based on my opponent. i have a game to play with a pretty hard core space wolves player. which i know i can beat with my salamanders or chaos marines armies but i do need to use all my tricks. this army im still learning so its gonna be rough. plus he is now liking to run quite a few drop pods and bikers with of course njal, bjorn and scouts. it will be a test for this list. i told him well have to play best out of 3 and can only change the list 1 time. so well see how it goes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212629-ard-boys-worthy/#findComment-2530638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 7, 2010 Share Posted October 7, 2010 In my eyes, its odd you are having success with this list since it has alot of units I'm not a fan of. If its working for you thats awesome, I'm just surprised. thats such a vague and unsupported answer... care to expand on your opinion as to why youre surprised? Sorry about, I'm usually much better about posting, well... useful posts. :( In more detail, I've never been a big fan of Fateweaver, Masque or Seekers and to a less extent, Screamers. Fateweaver, like Skarbrand and the Tallyman require an army built around them. Its a personal thing that I don't like "gimicky" armies like that for the most part, especially when the gimic can be killed. If I was to ever go with Fateweaver, I think the best option is a 5 MC list with 3 winged DPs, a Bloodthirster or Keeper and the Fateweaver. Fast, deadly and everyones packing a good save hopefully. Masque is just too much like a weaker version of Lash and Lash is already hurt by the current meta-game. Daemons HQ slots have some of their very best units between the GD and the Chariot Heralds so it seems wasteful to use a suboptimal one. Seekers aren't bad but I'm not sure why I'd buy them over Fiends (stronger, tougher) or Daemonettes (cheaper, scoring). The extra bit of speed just doesn't seem worth it to me. Screamers are tied with Hounds for the best Fast Attack slot which isn't saying much. They're great against static armor but after that, they don't do much outside of being a mobile cover save. Its not that they're bad, just that I'd rather spend the points elsewhere. The Troops I like, but I'd run 12-15 Daemonettes just because they're so fragile and rely heavily on Rending. Elites also look good. I'm curious how 6 Flamers per squad are working for you. It seems like it might be overkill. Heavy looks great. I hope that is more helpful. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212629-ard-boys-worthy/#findComment-2530872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Darkshade Posted October 8, 2010 Share Posted October 8, 2010 You know twice I read this thread and neither time did I catch the 6 on the Flamers. I tend to run Flamers (if I run them love my Crushers and Fiends to much) in squads of 3. Three templates is just harsh on a unit and most likely will kill it outright if not just down to a man or two. 6 is overkill to me as well. I would drop both to 3 man suicide squads and move your points you save to bump up other units more Daemonettes like mini mentioned would not be a bad idea. Masque has her uses, especially with the flaring up of full horde lists in tournies to counter the current mech trend (Can't mech 200+ models). But nothing can bring a smile to your face more then watching 30 man ork or 50 man blog gaurd squads moving in the wrong direction. She is a players choice some like, some don't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212629-ard-boys-worthy/#findComment-2530937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debauchery101 Posted October 8, 2010 Author Share Posted October 8, 2010 Thanks mini. I have never really used fateweaver in games until making these larger lists so I'm not completely set on him but so far he's doing well and really I try not to use him as a cruth or gimic as you say. He has his uses but my main use is the fact I know he's hated and it creates a focus point for the enemy that I have been able to capitalize on. As for the steeds I really like them just for the extra movement and attack plus people tend to try and avoid Calvary which can often help me force a direction of enemy movement. They are definately no slouches in hth though I do understand they are fragile like demonettes. I would like to use more fiends but I have really likened the flamer units and having two units is great. A lot of people have said 6 is overkill but these units have wiped out every type of enemy out there be it armor, mcs, hordes or whatever. they are mobil, tough and deadly. I wish I had more slots for them. for large squads I like to use the templates and wipe the first ranks and use the warpfire for left overs out of template range. in most game I've used them they have killed almost double their points. Like I've said earlier the screamers are great for the fact that they are somewht incognito being so small they get ignored for my larger and closer deployed units which is their strength. They always get a big kill. What's 64 pts mean when they can easily slip in an kill 3-4 times their cost. Plus the fact of them saving your other units from getting shelled or gunned down by tanks. For my experience with masque has never been bad .... She's mainly utility for enemy movement defense and has saved my butt from many of charges from carnifexes, dreads and other hth catatrophies. For 100 pts to me it's rediculous not to take the deal. I'm working on my alternate my alternate list without fateweaver if my games with the space dogs goes bad. I'll post it a bit later when I finish. Thanks for the advice I do take all of it into account and it really helps to have more opinions for this army Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212629-ard-boys-worthy/#findComment-2531084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debauchery101 Posted October 11, 2010 Author Share Posted October 11, 2010 so i finally played the space wolves player and it was definately a tougher fight than i thought tho he did choose a different army than i had seen him play before. but i also changed mine to be a bit better suited to fight against marines that had more of a hth focus. won 2 of the 3 games and didnt switch the lists and neither did he. i won my games by pretty much annihilation and he won one by being able to hold more objectives. anyways heres both the lists. he was cool to let me have a copy of it. my list great unclean one 200 flies,breath, instrument masque 100 epidemius 110 hq 410 fiends x6 180 flamers x3 105 flamers x3 105 elites 400 plague bearers x 14 240 icon,instrument plague bearers x7 130 icon plague bearers x7 130 icon demonettes x10 145 gaze horrors x 5 100 bolt, changeling nurglings x7 91 troops 836 screamers x3 48 screamers x3 48 seekers x8 141 gaze FA 237 demon prince 205 mon, touch,flies,wings, gaze demon prince 205 mon, touch,flies,wings, gaze demon prince 205 mon, touch,flies,wings, gaze hvy 615 his list njal 245 canis wolfborn 205 2 wolves hq 450 wolf guard pack x 7- 371 scout pack leaders x 2-76 frost blades grey hunter leader#1 73 cyclone, frost blade, term armor swift claws leaders x 2 146 bikes, power fists blood claws leaders x2 76 power fist ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ wolf scouts x9 170 2 power weapons flamer wolf scouts x 9 180 bolt guns, 2 plas pistols, 1 plasma gun elites- fenrisian wolves x 15 120 fenrisian wolves x 15 120 grey hunters x 8 155 flamer, drop pod grey hunters x 8 155 flamer, drop pod blood claws x9 185 flamer, power weapon, drop pod blood claws x9 185 flamer, power weapon, drop pod troops-920 thunder wolves x 2 130 frost blade, mark of wulfen swift claws x4 105 flamer swift claws x 4 105 flamer fast attack 340 i gotta say i really hate njal and i really hate the massive wolves shielding the thunder wolves and bikers. he was using the wolves to screen or to bog down my fiends and seekers while he went in for the kill on my demon princes. each match he killed 2 by jumping on them with a bike squad and canis and his boys. but each match i also had epidemius' tally to the max so by turn 4 it was pretty much done except the third game when he stayed away and turtled . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212629-ard-boys-worthy/#findComment-2533571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Darkshade Posted October 12, 2010 Share Posted October 12, 2010 How did masque and the screamers work for you in the three games? Where they game winners or just in the list and did things now and again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212629-ard-boys-worthy/#findComment-2533772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debauchery101 Posted October 12, 2010 Author Share Posted October 12, 2010 Well the screamers didn't do anything but help my demon princes and kill a couple of drop pods. I figured he was going to use a couple of dreads or bjorn and wasn't sure if he'd go rhinos and whirlwinds..... This guy has like almost a full chapter of space wolves and I've seen him play every type of list so it's hard to know what he picks, though he has been into drop pods more lately. As for masque she saved my from taking a few nasty charges and kept njal and canis away from epidemius Which is what her main role was. My Best unit had to be either epidemius or the fiends. My fiends tho bogged down and somewhat blunted by the horde fenrisian wolves still managed to get to the grey hunters squad with njal and kill him. I only kill canis one time. He's one tough sob lol and nasty Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212629-ard-boys-worthy/#findComment-2533887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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