TWC & Special weapons

[Dewi Sant]

I know the question about losing the rending ability of the TWM when selecting the SCCW for the rider has been brought up before and debated to death. I'm also sorry for resurrecting the topic.

 

I was playing a game on the weekend against a fellow wolf lord who was using Canis. He charged my WG in TDA and said he was electing to attack with Fangir. I informed him that this was not possible due the the fact that you lose the rending ability when you have SCCW's (Twin wolf Claws) and showed him the thread in this forum on my iPhone. He then pointed out that if that were the case why would Canis have rending listed in his stats in the codex if it were not possible to decide to attack with the WC's or Fangir. :rolleyes:

 

We decided to flip a coin, he won, but in return I won the CC with no casualties... :lol:

 

Who was right????????

[JamesI]

I thought Canis was an exception, he still got rending with his claws (part of the advantage of being a special character)

[Wildfire]

Rules are rules. There is no exception in Canis's description that allows him to choose rending. Your friend was wrong. He was also stupid, since he claws had a much better chance to wound those WG.

[Dewi Sant]

So why is rending in his stats then? Its not been FQ&A to say that it was an incorrect entry.

[Dewi Sant]

And yes he was stupid! :rolleyes:

[Max_Dammit]

A thunder mount gives rending, he has a thunder mount so it is in the stats, Its just a case of copy, paste without thinking what the rules are.

[Dewi Sant]

I think its high time GW sorted this once and for all. Perhaps we could script a request for it to be answered in full without leaving room for peoples own interpretations of 5 differing sources when the next FQA is released.

 

What do you guys think? All it would take is a bit of CUT-PASTE-EMAIL.

[Grey Mage]

No, I think Canis has a pair of Wolf Claws that are also rending.

 

Why? He doesnt have a TWM as wargear. He has Fangir. Theres nothing in Fangirs description that says he gives Canis the rending ability, or that it is lost at any point either. It is stated that he gives Canis a 'characteristic bonus' that is already worked into his profile... but rending is not part of the 9 characteristics of the model, its just its own special rule.

[Bulldogging]

No, I think Canis has a pair of Wolf Claws that are also rending.

 

Why? He doesnt have a TWM as wargear. He has Fangir. Theres nothing in Fangirs description that says he gives Canis the rending ability, or that it is lost at any point either. It is stated that he gives Canis a 'characteristic bonus' that is already worked into his profile... but rending is not part of the 9 characteristics of the model, its just its own special rule.

 

That is the most solid interpretation of the rules as written that I've seen for Canis.

[Ranwulf]

Rending is part of Canis special rules, as such, they are not part of the Thunderwolves rules(which his Wolf Claws would disable), therefore he can rend.

 

Somehow he is like Shrike, he have Rending because his Wargear Special Rules gives him that skill.

 

Ran

[Grimtooth]

Exactly Grey.

 

I would play it exactly as follows,

 

He attacks infantry as normal with wolf claws.

 

He attacks armor with the chance to get extra penetration on rolls of 6.

[Grey Mage]

Pretty much. Bloodletter champions have that same ability- though its a bit overcosted.

[Lord Doyok]

Rending is part of Canis special rules, as such, they are not part of the Thunderwolves rules(which his Wolf Claws would disable), therefore he can rend.

 

Somehow he is like Shrike, he have Rending because his Wargear Special Rules gives him that skill.

 

Ran

That is my interpretations too.

[Valerian]

No, I think Canis has a pair of Wolf Claws that are also rending.

 

Why? He doesnt have a TWM as wargear. He has Fangir. Theres nothing in Fangirs description that says he gives Canis the rending ability, or that it is lost at any point either. It is stated that he gives Canis a 'characteristic bonus' that is already worked into his profile... but rending is not part of the 9 characteristics of the model, its just its own special rule.

 

 

Although I agree with you completely on that is how it should be played, here is what the moronic FAQ writers at GW have to say about it (page 5 of the current FAQ):

 

Q. Does a Thunderwolf Cavalry model with a special close combat weapon (eg a thunder hammer) still have rending attacks?

 

A. No. The description of the Thunderwolf mount on page 62 says that it ‘… has the Rending special rule in close combat with any attack that does not use a special close combat weapon’. This applies to Thunderwolf Cavalry as well (and Canis Wolfborn, for that matter).

 

So, if you are one who considers FAQs toward RAW arguments, then Canis doesn't get Rending, ever, at all, regardless of the fact that actually has the special rule for it in his unit entry. Stupid, huh?

 

Valerian

[Max_Dammit]

And there you have it black on white

 

Just as dumb as the Njal entry :D

[Spazmonkey]

So what is the point of Canis having the rending rule if he can not ever use it?

[Tyleesa]

I believe Canis' rending is due to his wolfy childhood, not Fangir. So his attacks are rending anyways.

But why would anyone use rending instead of a power weapon of any sort in a fight against infantry? Claws do the same thing as Rending, ignoring armour, only better! Or do I miss some tricky rules here?

[Dewi Sant]

So what is the point of Canis having the rending rule if he can not ever use it?

 

Spazmonkey, You have hit the nail on the head so to speak!

[Grimtooth]

I believe Canis' rending is due to his wolfy childhood, not Fangir. So his attacks are rending anyways.

But why would anyone use rending instead of a power weapon of any sort in a fight against infantry? Claws do the same thing as Rending, ignoring armour, only better! Or do I miss some tricky rules here?

 

You want Canis' rending against vehicles.

 

At str5, with rending attacks he can roll a 6 for penetration, putting his armor penetration at 11, the d3 extra can then put him at 14, glancing Land Raiders.

[Spazmonkey]

I believe Canis' rending is due to his wolfy childhood, not Fangir. So his attacks are rending anyways.

But why would anyone use rending instead of a power weapon of any sort in a fight against infantry? Claws do the same thing as Rending, ignoring armour, only better! Or do I miss some tricky rules here?

 

You want Canis' rending against vehicles.

 

At str5, with rending attacks he can roll a 6 for penetration, putting his armor penetration at 11, the d3 extra can then put him at 14, glancing Land Raiders.

 

 

Are you allowed to say you not using the wolf claws? and specify your using rending?

Is this even allowed?

[BlackSpike]

Canis has the Rending Special Rule. Any CC attack he makes may Rend.

It has no qualifiers, no restrictions, no exceptions.

Roll a 6 To Wound and he Rends.

 

Whatever people think about TWM rending/SCCW/etc, Canis himself has the Rending Rule. Always applies.

[Grey Mage]

No, I think Canis has a pair of Wolf Claws that are also rending.

 

Why? He doesnt have a TWM as wargear. He has Fangir. Theres nothing in Fangirs description that says he gives Canis the rending ability, or that it is lost at any point either. It is stated that he gives Canis a 'characteristic bonus' that is already worked into his profile... but rending is not part of the 9 characteristics of the model, its just its own special rule.

 

 

Although I agree with you completely on that is how it should be played, here is what the moronic FAQ writers at GW have to say about it (page 5 of the current FAQ):

 

Q. Does a Thunderwolf Cavalry model with a special close combat weapon (eg a thunder hammer) still have rending attacks?

 

A. No. The description of the Thunderwolf mount on page 62 says that it ‘… has the Rending special rule in close combat with any attack that does not use a special close combat weapon’. This applies to Thunderwolf Cavalry as well (and Canis Wolfborn, for that matter).

 

So, if you are one who considers FAQs toward RAW arguments, then Canis doesn't get Rending, ever, at all, regardless of the fact that actually has the special rule for it in his unit entry. Stupid, huh?

 

Valerian

Negatory, as Canis Wolfborn is not chosen from the unit entry of Thunderwolf Cavalry. He is his own, distinct, entry and follows his own rules.

 

Just like you can add a Wolf Gaurd to swiftclaws but not to skyclaws ;).

[Spazmonkey]

But the below states "This applies to Thunderwolf Cavalry as well (and Canis Wolfborn, for that matter)."

 

Does that not mean rending is lost?

Oh man why cant they make it easier....

its like they dont give enough of a crap to make it clear....

 

 

"Q. Does a Thunderwolf Cavalry model with a special close combat weapon (eg a thunder hammer) still have rending attacks?

 

A. No. The description of the Thunderwolf mount on page 62 says that it ‘… has the Rending special rule in close combat with any attack that does not use a special close combat weapon’. This applies to Thunderwolf Cavalry as well (and Canis Wolfborn, for that matter)."

[Grey Mage]

hrmm... your right, it does say it includes Canis. Dang.

 

In that case, I suppose he doesnt. Pretty cut n dry with the FAQ like that.

[WG Vrox]

"Q. Does a Thunderwolf Cavalry model with a special close combat weapon (eg a thunder hammer) still have rending attacks?

 

A. No. The description of the Thunderwolf mount on page 62 says that it ‘… has the Rending special rule in close combat with any attack that does not use a special close combat weapon’. This applies to Thunderwolf Cavalry as well (and Canis Wolfborn, for that matter)."

 

So what is the point of Canis having the rending rule if he can not ever use it?

 

This is why I side with a model having a choice to use either the rending rule or his other special weapon in CC. Otherwise what is the point.