What is the most effective size for DC?

[Redfinger]

Simple question...you make them to bog and killy, then they get shot hell the next round for being out in the open....now if you don't make them killy enough then they are some what wasted by only engaging one unit a game...which is not bad, because then that is one less thing for you to worry about from your oponent....

 

So here is an interesting thought, running two 5man DC in razorbacks with 1 Chaplin equipped with a jump pack to move between them if needed...out fit the small squad effectivly and tuen them loose to tie up other units during a game.

 

Is that to much to ask from DC to be a tarpit unit? Or are they simple just there to kill and use other units as a tarpit?

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Ashton

[SamaNagol]

15! Rawwwr!

[Morollan]

So here is an interesting thought, running two 5man DC in razorbacks with 1 Chaplin equipped with a jump pack to move between them if needed...out fit the small squad effectivly and tuen them loose to tie up other units during a game.

 

Is that to much to ask from DC to be a tarpit unit? Or are they simple just there to kill and use other units as a tarpit?

 

That's 200 points (plus gear) plus 125 for the chaplain plus 2 transports. Seems a tad expensive for what you intend to use them for.

[Jakobus]

In my opinion it's not just models but how they are armed.

On the charge with a chaplain 6 DC with Powerweapons will deal 20 wounds (as per Mathhammer) and 6 wounds against Stormshields.

 

Thing is a unit like this will be shot at... with the ouchy weapons... So depending on how you are delivering them into combat.

 

I figure a Thunderhammer or Powerfist per 5 members, just to deal thumpy things

[Ruthven]

I am not sure DC are really a tarpit unit. They should be used to intimidate your opponent and make him focus his attention on your enraged, black-armored battle-brothers, rather than the ones painted red. When I think of a tarpit unit, its something like a seer council with fortune... Death Company have the ability, even in small groups, to be an almost unparalleled killing force on the field. Also to run two units like you're thinking about, you'd need to run Astorath, so you might as well drop the chaplain and use him to bounce between the units :jaw:.

 

I run mine in groups of 6-9 plus a Chaplain or Reclusiarch (depending on points/army build) in a Rhino. I find that first turn you charge the Rhino toward the enemy and try to pick out an enemy transport to pop my first turn or two of shooting. Turn two the Death Company are usually within range of something to assault, so I open the doors and let them out! Almost without fail they intimidate/scare opponents into concentrating on them while my Assault squads in rhinos or with jump packs are left to move much more freely. Just last weekend my 6-man DC+Chaplain were the MVP for me in a local tournament. This tactic could easily be modified to use 5-man+chaplain units in razorbacks, but I decided against the Razorback for my DC because the idea of their transport is to zoom them around the board, not necessarily be a gun platform. Often times their ride gets destroyed in the first few rounds anyway, because my opponent is trying to wipe the DC out. Don't be afraid to be extremely reckless and aggressive with them! Its fluffy :jaw:

 

I kit out my DC with a couple power weapons usually, or a power weapon and a fist. Add in the Chaplain's power weapon and you're looking at quite a few power attacks to mow through almost anything. The extra DC are honestly there for sucking up wounds and making sure my expensive power weapons survive a few rounds.

 

I generally pop transports with a turn 1 dreadnought in a drop pod dropping behind their lines, or a autocannon/las sponson predator or two (Fast preds are amazing). You can pop transports however you want, the end result should be turn two, deploy DC and let them run all over the board destroying things at will. The one thing I would suggest if you have the points is to get a fist in the squad in case they get stuck in with a dreadnought... on a DC rather than the Chaplain if only because you can hide it in the squad. Hope this helped :jaw:

[tahrikmili]

I figure a Thunderhammer or Powerfist per 5 members, just to deal thumpy things

 

This is exactlywhat I do! 2 PF for 10 DC, All models have Bolters. Delivered via Drop Pod to your table side.

 

Deal with it.

[surelock]

If you are planning on running a couple of squads of DC you will need Astorath and he is your jump pack chappy (I usually stick him with my honor guard however and DS them in and then split them after the inevitable round of shooting at them), and my weapon loadouts are usually 1 fist w/ bolter and 2 power weapons per squad regardless of size (I never use less than 5 the # of hits on the charge is important to not getting bogged down as well as FC bonuses). I also like to run a chappy or reclusiarch w/ my razor DC (yes I do run a TLHF razor for DC as well as a rhino based unit and a DC dreaddy in a pod and these are my hammer units) and place the fist on the chappy or rec. as it saves a few points and gives me the choice of crozius or fist attacks with him (BTW the rec. at init 6 on the charge is a complete and utter beast he can break squads by himself occasionally). my rhino squad size is usually dictated by the overall game points but for example at 1500 they are a 8-10 man squad w/ no chappy and at 1750 they go to a 6-8 man squad w/ rec or chappy.

 

I have used multiple DC squads for quite some time now and I absolutely love them, they are feared and draw a boatload of fire and still almost always manage to wade into a brawl and eat their points worth.

 

PS the DC dreaddy w/ Talons and a pod is cheap and another way to remove fire from your assault units, just keep him far enough away from melta to get the charge next turn (easy to do thanks to fleet) and rip up a few units with him, I am not even afraid of fists really with his killy potential.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

10 DC plus Lemartes in a Stormraven! Thunder Hammer, Power Fist and a Power Weapon.

[SamaNagol]

Please please, if you take any DC, always take a DC dreadn with Talons in a Pod. They are THE BEST!

[Redfinger]

If you are planning on running a couple of squads of DC you will need Astorath and he is your jump pack chappy (I usually stick him with my honor guard however and DS them in and then split them after the inevitable round of shooting at them), and my weapon loadouts are usually 1 fist w/ bolter and 2 power weapons per squad regardless of size (I never use less than 5 the # of hits on the charge is important to not getting bogged down as well as FC bonuses). I also like to run a chappy or reclusiarch w/ my razor DC (yes I do run a TLHF razor for DC as well as a rhino based unit and a DC dreaddy in a pod and these are my hammer units) and place the fist on the chappy or rec. as it saves a few points and gives me the choice of crozius or fist attacks with him (BTW the rec. at init 6 on the charge is a complete and utter beast he can break squads by himself occasionally). my rhino squad size is usually dictated by the overall game points but for example at 1500 they are a 8-10 man squad w/ no chappy and at 1750 they go to a 6-8 man squad w/ rec or chappy.

 

I have used multiple DC squads for quite some time now and I absolutely love them, they are feared and draw a boatload of fire and still almost always manage to wade into a brawl and eat their points worth.

 

PS the DC dreaddy w/ Talons and a pod is cheap and another way to remove fire from your assault units, just keep him far enough away from melta to get the charge next turn (easy to do thanks to fleet) and rip up a few units with him, I am not even afraid of fists really with his killy potential.

 

 

This is a well thought out post, thanks for your reply. I understand your reasoning for not calling DC a tarpit unit, but there has to be a point of dimineshing return where it is just overkill and a waste of points to go any larger in the build. Now keep in mind that I am coming from a perspective that an assaulting squad should not be built so strong that it completely removes the unit from the table, that leaves it open to eny fire or counter charge.

 

Now with that in mind is a 5-6 man DC squad with a chappy armed wit 2-3 power weapons fit that mold, are they threatening enough to deal with most units, while not being so killy that they are left in the open after one round.

[SamaNagol]

Personally in 1500pt games I run them at 5 man, no chaplain with a PW and PF in a razorback for just that reason. they are dirt cheap, yet draw fire as if they were 5 terminators in a Crusader. It's brilliant.

[Dingareth]

Most effective size of a Death Company unit? Well, I guess that depends on how big your shelf is, because that's where they're going to end up.

 

Now, I've had fun with a unit of 5, a Chaplain, and a Death Company Dread in a Storm Raven before, but I wouldn't consider it the least bit effective. 5 at minimum, because you need an Infernus Pistol in the squad to go with the Chappy's, for when they decide to take off after the 35 point Buggy instead of the big mob of 30 Boyz right beside them...

[Brother Weasel]

Most effective size of a Death Company unit? Well, I guess that depends on how big your shelf is, because that's where they're going to end up.

 

yea, no, My dc do just fine to not need to sit on my shelf;) you might wantt o try shooting that buggy and setting up your dc in better positions... then point and kill

[WarpWalker]

Samanogal -"15! RAWWWR!"

 

I have a squad this size but have only fielded it once. :D I usually only use 6-9 DC w/jps . But I do use a squad in drop pod(8 DC) and a DC dread in a pod every chance I get. :P

 

I love these guys for what they do.

[Ruthven]

Most effective size of a Death Company unit? Well, I guess that depends on how big your shelf is, because that's where they're going to end up.

 

Now, I've had fun with a unit of 5, a Chaplain, and a Death Company Dread in a Storm Raven before, but I wouldn't consider it the least bit effective. 5 at minimum, because you need an Infernus Pistol in the squad to go with the Chappy's, for when they decide to take off after the 35 point Buggy instead of the big mob of 30 Boyz right beside them...

 

 

That scenario is why I make sure I have a lot high strength fire on my side of the board, so I can take out their transports or other low AV models easily and leave the DC free to assault my opponent's infantry. I have never given my DC infernus pistols and I have never had the moment arise where I wish they had them, to be honest.

 

This goes back to my Autocannon/las sponson Pred. I love those things. I would never use one in a vanilla marine list, but in a BA list where they are able to move 6 inches and still unload all their firepower, they are extremely valuable. Blood Angels have to rely more on synergy than other marine lists in my opinion to do well. I believe this because the base of the BA army is the Assault Marine, and not the Tactical Marine. Sure Assault Marines have access to Melta guns, but that means they can't reach out and touch an enemy as say, a tac squad with a missle launcher can. The Death Company are essentially really angry Assault Marines, so they also suffer from this inability to cause long-distance damage. As others have said, the drop pod Dreadnought is another viable option here. Also, while not a favorite of mine, the 5-man DC+Chaplain in a Razorback, with heavy weapon of choice is an option.

 

I played Eldar for ~18 months before I got into Blood Angels. The need for an Eldar-esque "dance" and synergy was an obvious transition for me to make. The Death Company are my favorite unit... sure they might run amok now and then. You might get them stuck scratching at the hull of something AV 14 or chasing something too fast for them to catch, but that is part of the fun of the unit. While your opponent is worrying about what the DC is doing, you should have the time to get your other Assault marines/Dreads/ect up the field and into position to do some damage. It isn't always about what the DC kill, it can also be about how much hate and firepower they soak up that allows the rest of your army to act more freely.

 

I never understood why people dislike the DC so much... I Run them in the local tournaments and I've never felt like they needed to come out of the list.

[syypher]

Read most of the posts above...here's my personal input on it.

 

I always run them in squads of 5. If I run 10 I feel like the points are too much for a squad that could possibly die to a round of shooting next turn. Demolishers, Las, anything ap1/2 = I stick to squads of 5. I don't run Astrorath because I run a mech BA list and prefer the cheap RAS with no JP to reduce prices of my RBs.

 

I run my 5 man DC squad with 1 PF and 1-2 PW (usually 2) + Chaplain. I don't like going higher than 5 because they will usually wreck whatever 10 man squad they attack. With rerolls on hit AND wound and higher I on charge it's almost guaranteed whatever your charging will die. My only problem is after they wipe out whatever they want they get shot to death next turn. If you go more than 5 then you will "overkill" your opponent even more. Don't waste the points imo~ (Unless your going a heavy DC theme with Astrorath ofcourse, then do w/e)

[glider0880]

Well i once tried 6 units of 11 with a chaplain inside crusaders. (apoc obviously)

My opponent attempted to surrender upon sight! :D

(it might have been the 18 vindicators though...pondering...)

 

I tend to like putting my DC in a transport (preferably a LR if I have the points)

I ALWAYS put a chaplain with them, Re-rolls to hit and wound are just to good to miss!

 

I normally take between 6-11

[Necronsftw]

30 DC and a Chappy [Lemartes] because there no such thing as over kill Also the must have 15 with Power weapons and 15 with Thunder hammers in addition 30 infernus pistols. 30 melta shots somethings gotta budge

[Gumo9]

I really like 6 Death Company with a Chaplain. One DC with power weapon and one with thunder hammer, the other 4 with chainswords and bolters (295 points). I usually have them supported by a Death Company Dreadnaught with blood talons which takes the points total up to 420. I've had really great results with these guys and find that they are just enough to do the job without being over the top.

 

Sprinkle with appropriate transports and job's a good 'un.

 

G

[Lord of Death]

Hi guys,

 

I have to say in a 2000pts game i use a sick DC as follows.

 

25 DC with jump packs

 

inc:

 

10 x PF

 

6 x PW

 

1 x IP

 

and Lemartes

 

only 1375 pts but you will kill loads.

[syypher]

You don't want to finish combat on your turn 90% of the time... Unless you want to get shot at next turn and lose it all. So yes, there is such a thing as overkill. Generally you want to kill 60 to 75% of their army and stay locked in combat. Then finish them off on their turn.

[Redfinger]

You don't want to finish combat on your turn 90% of the time... Unless you want to get shot at next turn and lose it all. So yes, there is such a thing as overkill. Generally you want to kill 60 to 75% of their army and stay locked in combat. Then finish them off on their turn.

 

 

This is the point that I was trying to get to with this post, what is a proper load out to do with DC that will accmplish this.

 

I think that with RAS, even on the charge a 5 man unit is a little behind this curve, but a 5man RAS would make a great counter charge unit or support charge unit I think...I also feel that Sang Guard w/ stock equipment will be sleightly ahead of this curve and as a 5 man unit, I have been trying to figure out where the DC fits in. Has anyone ever rana 3man squad, the absolute bare minimum? Paired w/ a Chaplin it might be a decent little scalple. That could also keep them inexpensive enough to be equipped w/ JP's?? Thoughts?

[syypher]

You don't want to finish combat on your turn 90% of the time... Unless you want to get shot at next turn and lose it all. So yes, there is such a thing as overkill. Generally you want to kill 60 to 75% of their army and stay locked in combat. Then finish them off on their turn.

 

 

This is the point that I was trying to get to with this post, what is a proper load out to do with DC that will accmplish this.

 

I think that with RAS, even on the charge a 5 man unit is a little behind this curve, but a 5man RAS would make a great counter charge unit or support charge unit I think...I also feel that Sang Guard w/ stock equipment will be sleightly ahead of this curve and as a 5 man unit, I have been trying to figure out where the DC fits in. Has anyone ever rana 3man squad, the absolute bare minimum? Paired w/ a Chaplin it might be a decent little scalple. That could also keep them inexpensive enough to be equipped w/ JP's?? Thoughts?

 

I was actually mulling that over in my head for a while. That would definitely lower their costs. To warrant JP's though? Remember their always angry so keeping them in a vehicle IMO is a must. You don't want them DS'ing in and then the enemy runs away and puts a real crappy unit in front of you to run you around the board. Plus if they put a LR or AV13+ vehicle in front of you and you have no PF? Your DC is stuck doing nothing all game.

 

The idea of a 3 DC + Chap is awesome and needs to be backed up with a RB w/ TL AsC or something to keep their rage from taking over.

 

Totally understand where your going with 5 RAS. It's very underwhelming in every game I have played when I have started a charge with a 5man RAS squad... (Hopefully not anymore since I am adding 1 Sang Priest to my lists from now on and equiping the RAS a tiny tad bit more)

 

Needless to say; 5 DC + Chap feels like overkill even sometimes so I like where this idea is headed. Possibly 3 DC + Chap in a RB with a TL AsC. DC equipped with 1 PF and 2 PWs. Maybe 4 DC.

[WarpWalker]

syypher - You don't want to finish combat on your turn 90% of the time... Unless you want to get shot at next turn and lose it all. So yes, there is such a thing as overkill. Generally you want to kill 60 to 75% of their army and stay locked in combat. Then finish them off on their turn.

 

 

Redfinger - This is the point that I was trying to get to with this post, what is a proper load out to do with DC that will accmplish this.

 

Sorry I must not have understood the question. But my post still stands. Personally( as I don't know for a fact) it depends on the mode of

delivery.

 

If drop pod... then 8 w/2 powerfists should do. The enemy will shoot them up before they can assault so the extra couple of bodies will

help. If they assault there should be enough DC left to not "over-kill" infantry or if they assault you with a dread or IC the powerfist will kill 'em.

 

If by jump pack...then the 9 or 10ish range should leave you with a few DC after a turn or two of enemy shooting to once again not "over-kill"

the enemy during your assault.

 

If by rhino... I really don't know. If the rhino is popped early it's a marching up the board for ya! Here numbers would be good. If the rhino

makes it. 3 or 4 + chap would do fine.

 

Hope this helps.

J

[syypher]

Why not to take 10 man JP DCs or Pods.

 

The enemy will move my empty Rhino or whatever they want as "bait" towards you to lure you even further away from me. Or place a trash unit to tie you up for a round. Since you have so many running in a direction that the enemy can easily designate your 9-10 DC are now no longer a threat. They will move their guys towards your other forces, which will be much easier to deal with since you just dumped so many points into this DC squad and it's following a Rhino, RB, 5 combat squadded RAS, a vehicle with it's main weapons destroyed...etc.etc.

 

Now after they've dealt with some other random threat and you finally killed the "bait" target your Jump Packing back, more than likely not going to get a charge off since that 1 turn you had to move in the opposite direction of the enemies main forces was enough to throw you off. Now they focus on your DC and shoot them down. If you want to add more to "cushion" the shooting on your DC go ahead but that doesn't seem like a very uphill strategy to me.

 

So main reason I talk about overkill and housing DCs in a vehicle is primarily because of cost and efficiency.

 

-To make Drop Poding DC "decent" you need to pump them full of more bodies, just to absorb the shooting blow. Why set yourself up to be shot at. You shouldn't make a unit with the thought process of I'll add more bodies so they can be shot at more. It's going to happen but don't suicide them in like that with a Drop Pod. There are much more viable solutions like a LR or StormRaven.

 

-Jumping them leads to some very nasty tricks the opponent can do to you. They can control what you charge and which direction you go. What I mean by controlling what you charge I mean they can move you away and have your DC only near that 1 unit so they can't move in a direction towards your other forces. (I know you can charge other targets that aren't considered the closest to your DC if your within range.)

 

-Having this huge angry and expensive unit becoming useless in a situation like I stated above as an example is a huge waste of points. This is a 200+ or 300+ if you have the chaplain unit thats not doing anything for 1-2 turns. More if the opponent knows how to play games with your raged DC's.

 

I have played and watched quite a few games where player B's forces were getting annihilated because player A sent some low cost fast moving units to lead the DC around the board. Turn 4 comes along and the DC are on the opposite side with not enough time to make any difference...happens a lot.

 

 

 

Now I know this is a long post but remember it's just an opinion and personal preference that comes from experience of me seeing these things happen to others and myself even.