Istvaan system

[Badaboom]

Hi fellows!

 

Do you know what was of the worlds of Istvaan after the Heresy? Surely the place where the first betrayal took place and so few stood against so many, and the Drop Site Massacre site should be a place of great importance for the Adeptus Astartes, perhaps some kind of hallowed ground for the first martirs of the Heresy?

[Aurelius Rex]

As far as I can tell there has been no mention of it after the Heresy, or even of its exact location. (This was why I didn't feel too bad about having it somewhere in Ultima Segmentum for the Dornian Heresy... after all, if even GW pointedly didn't give a location, it leaves a little more wiggle-room for fanfic enterpretations. :P )

 

Perhaps the Horus Heresy books will give more information as the series progresses... perhaps! They may be busy with quite important issues such as the Siege of Terra and the like and not get round to it. :)

[calgar101]

Just like the Traitors homeworlds they probably were destroyed and stricken from the records.

[Badaboom]

Just like the Traitors homeworlds they probably were destroyed and stricken from the records.

 

That´s what I thought, but it´s sad to get rid off such places. I´d like them to have been erased from all records, but becoming pilgrimage worlds of spiritual importance for the Astartes. A place for reflexion and meditation, and a sanctum for ancient heroes.

[calgar101]

Why would they become spiritual pilgrimage destinations for them? This is a site where the worst betrayl happened, where a Primach was killed and 2 legions nearly anihilated. Whats so important and spiritual about that?

[Mekelan]

Besides, I don't think the average Astartes has much time for pilgrimage, really. It's from one warzone to the next with little to no "off-time" in between. Of course, it may take weeks or months to travel from one warzone to the next but that doesn't mean there's time to go out of your way (or even stop on the way) at such a site.

[Badaboom]

Why would they become spiritual pilgrimage destinations for them? This is a site where the worst betrayl happened, where a Primach was killed and 2 legions nearly anihilated. Whats so important and spiritual about that?

 

Well, extermination camps are still a touristic place for many people, kind of a cultural visit, and it makes many of them think about what happened. Same with Hiroshima. Mind that yes, Istvaan III and V were places of great betrayal and terrible facts, but also noble feats, heroic deaths and an alrounds historical place for the Imperium and the Legions. I´m sure the Astartes have their own way to pay homage to their own ancient heroes, other than the usual bolt-fire praise on the battlefield.

 

Mind that all this is just what I´d like it to be, just a matter of personal taste.

[calgar101]

I can see where you're coming from but the Imperium nor the Astartes have the time or interest in culture. To them the greatest way to remember their Primarch and pay homage is in the fires of battle. The noble feats, heroic deaths would've been immortalised yes but just like the traitors that systems would most likely have been expunged from all records.

[Clewz]

its either become a tombworld or the imperium have destroyed in an attempt to perpetuate the myth that astartes never turn fro the emperor

[Valkyrion]

Older fluff has a quote that suggests the Imperium has been back;

 

Bravery is stronger than Adamantium. One is the stuff of the soul-forges, the other an illusion of safety created by fools. Adamantium walls cannot keep us out! We have the courage of the Emperor! And in the Emperor's name... ATTACK!! ATTACK!! NO PRISONERS!!

 

Chaplain Gonzago, Operation Carthage (second pacification of Isstvan V)

 

WH40k Compedium p22.

 

This is 1st edition fluff, and my memory fails as to when the Drop Site Massacres was actually introduced into modern canon. Has it always been there, or is it a 2nd edition creation?

[Clewz]

think it was first edition slaves to darkness era. Thats if the 2nd edition is the boxed set one

[Valkyrion]

Yeah, 2nd ed was the box with the cardboard Ork dread.

 

Oh, just realised it's my 1st year B&C birthday today!

[Algrim Whitefang]

Post Heresy, Istvaan III would have been declared a Dead World (as it was completely destroyed through Exterminatus by Warmaster Horus). Istvaan V would have been cleansed during the Great Scouring and eventually declared PurgÄtis (Purged; completely cleansed and labeled permanently 'off-limits'). Records of the existence of what occurred in the Istvaan System would have been purged from all Imperial records, so as to keep the masses in ignorance of the true reason the First Inter-Legionary War even occurred. This is a sad testament to the Loyalists Space Marines that fought so valiantly against their former brethren on Istvaan III, as well as the Loyalist Legions that were severely mauled during the Istvaan V Dropsite Massacre.

 

(calgar101 @ Oct 8 2010, 11:09 AM) *

Why would they become spiritual pilgrimage destinations for them? This is a site where the worst betrayal happened, where a Primarch was killed and 2 legions nearly annihilated. What's so important and spiritual about that?

 

In regards to this particular quote by calgar101, is it unheard of for Space Marines to venerate those whom sacrificed themselves heroically? No, it isn't. Case in point: The Astral Knights Space Marine Chapter. The Astral Knights were a Loyalist Space Marine Chapter from an unknown Founding and origin. The Astral Knights sacrificed their entire Chapter in the final years of the 41st Millennium to destroy the hideous threat to the Imperium called the World Engine. This Necron weapon was a planet-sized spacecraft, armed with gauss projectors capable of scorching planets of all life. A permanent monument made up of seven-hundred and seventy-two arbalstone statues (one for each fallen battle-brother from the Astral Knights) amidst the wreckage of their former Battle Barge Tempestus, which now stands on the lifeless world of Safehold, the final victim of the World Engine. In recognition of their valorous actions and supreme sacrifice, this shrine is guarded by a score of Space Marines from the dozen Chapters who fought at the Astral Knights' side, standing as one out of respect to the fallen. (Source: Codex Space Marines (5th Edition) pgs.44-45)

 

Now granted, what occurred at Istvaan V, was of the most basest betrayals that ever occurred in the long glorious history of the Space Marines. But those three Loyalist Legions (Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard) acquitted themselves with righteous indignation and honor, despite the dire circumstances of their betrayal by their fellow Legions. Had the Imperium not been so weakened by the events of the Horus Heresy and the fact that the Loyalists had more important priorities during The Great Scouring, would go on to explain why there wasn't an opportunity to raise a proper memorial to their fallen brethren. But despite what occurred, it is more than likely that many within the ranks of the Space Marines (especially the Successor Chapters of these original Legions involved in the events of Istvaan V) are properly venerated within each respective Chapter.

[calgar101]

The Astral Claws sacrifice against the World Engine is different to the Drop site Massacre. The Imperium the way it is will wanted to have expunged any records of the Istvaan system and what occured there. Yes the Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Salamanders will venerate their dead comrades(well the ones who's name have not been forgotten in the 10,000 years since) heroic actions and that of the Primarchs; with the Iron Hands lamenting Ferrus' death.

[csblackhawk]

If you go to P.52 of the daemonhunters codex under deamonhunters would fight necrons because section:

 

"Necron attacks are converging on a powerful site of warp energy being studied by a cell of Radical Istvaanian Inquisitors."

 

As the inquisition is a Post heresy Organisation the inclusion of Istavaanian Inquistors prove that at least the Istvaan System still contained human life after the heresy.

[Hemal]

Istvaanian is a school of thought, not a geographical concept. Like Thorian or Monodominant..

[KhornateKiller]

Istvann5 is actually mentioned in one of the salamanders story's I think it was the first one, Or a short story. They found a clue to one of their "relics" from Vulcan and it is located on Istvaan, Will have a flick through the book see if i can find it :D

[Brother-chaplain Astador]

The planet was Virus bombed, was it not?

 

I don't imagine there would be anything left to visit. And that's even if it wasn't completely destroyed during the scouring.

 

Even if there was

 

It isn't like a lot of Space Marine battle sights

 

There was no great victory at Istvaan, there was only loss, and slaughter, the traitorous marines won the day

 

If the Loyal marines had turned the tide, and wiped out all the traitor forces on the planet, and then destroyed the orbiting fleet, then I can understand.

 

But they lost, killed to a man, and the planet was used as a springboard for the assault on the rest of the segmentum, and more importantly, Terra.

[shatter]

I reckon it'd have been expunged from records too. Just so it couldn't easily become a rallying banner or symbol for chaos (and betrayal).

[Arn Greybeard]

The planet was Virus bombed, was it not?

 

Istvaan III took the Virus bombing. Istvaan V was the site of the great betrayal/death of Ferrus Manus.

 

So, yeah, III wouldn't be worth visiting, really.

 

V would have all the remnants of the traitors' defenses and the like, I'd expect.

[randian]

I reckon it'd have been expunged from records too. Just so it couldn't easily become a rallying banner or symbol for chaos (and betrayal).

That makes no sense. How would expunging their location from Imperial records cause the Traitor Legions to forget where it was?

[Drac0]

I reckon it'd have been expunged from records too. Just so it couldn't easily become a rallying banner or symbol for chaos (and betrayal).

That makes no sense. How would expunging their location from Imperial records cause the Traitor Legions to forget where it was?

 

Expunge it with a tyranid fleet? :P

 

That would make the heretics think twice before thinking about a pilgrimage to Istvaan. :tu:

[Iron Father Rik]

Well, extermination camps are still a touristic place for many people, kind of a cultural visit, and it makes many of them think about what happened. Same with Hiroshima. Mind that yes, Istvaan III and V were places of great betrayal and terrible facts, but also noble feats, heroic deaths and an alrounds historical place for the Imperium and the Legions. I´m sure the Astartes have their own way to pay homage to their own ancient heroes, other than the usual bolt-fire praise on the battlefield.

 

Although the topic moved on from this point, I'd like to return to this just briefly. I wish to point out that today we keep places like Auschwitz and Hiroshima as memorials and museum sites in order to yes, commemorate those brave souls who fought and died for freedom, but also to act as reminders about the horrors that have happened in the past by human hands and to ensure that we never repeat such horrific deeds again - lest we forget. We would not consider, since it doesn't happen, that to visit these places would "taint" someone and make them go out and do these deeds.

 

However in the Imperium, superstition is rife, and belief in magic and supernatural powers is not fiction - it is hard and terrible fact. To the Imperium, a place of such great betrayal and corruption by Chaos would be considered a dangerous and tainted place, and would be eradicated from existance in order to prevent any possible chance of the taint of Chaos infecting anyone who should visit that place - whether there was a taint or not. Whole Imperial Guard regiments have been executed after victories against Chaos, simply because they might have been tainted in the process of fighting the Archenemy, regardless of the fact that they won the war. The Imperium on a grand scale cares not for heroes and martyrs and their exact places of death. Such things are for legends, myths and folklore to worry about.

 

I believe that the Istvaan system as used by Horus in the heresy would have been declared exterminatus and destroyed, with all records expunged from the archives. It may very very well be the case that there is another system elsewhere with the same name, but I do not believe it would be the same place.