Army List Composition Dilemna

[Israfel]

Brethern,

 

These days I find myself in fron of the drawboard, working on hypothetical lists for our beloved angels. The codex is great, I always have a good time reading it and pondering about the possiblities. Yes there are tons of viable possbilities (which makes is a great! codex) but they all come with a heavy price tag. Mind you that I usually play 1500 pts games, hence I am king of short on points. I usually stay away from deathstar units as they are too expensive to be effective at 1500 pts. I am long time BA player by the way, more then 6 years of game play under my belt ;) So the problem is I just can't get myself to come up with a nice and balances army list?! :)

 

Descent of Angels is too good to pass up, while a mechanized BA force is always an intimitading sight, how about balanced? In theory they are all viable, but the point costs are killing me. At the moment I'm working on a list with lots of jumpers (RAS x2, VV) and no vehicles at all. I'm finding it very hard to insert a unit to hold my home objective(s) which would also have a good synergy with my jumpers. Leaving a combat squad of JP behind is really not synergetic or cost efficient, similarly a lone tactical squad is nice but not that intimidating by way of support on their own, RB RAS are a bit expensive for what they do and once they lose their shell they are not very resilient, similarly scout squads are nice and cheap but don't have any real staying power.

 

So the big question is what do you use as an objective camper?

[Erasmus of Baal]

Full-size Tactical squad, split if necessary, usually backed up by a full-sized and split Devastator squad. Nobody particularly likes getting close, and one Lascannon on each team (half of a Devi and half of a Tact) keeps them useful at range.

[JamesI]

I don't use objective campers. Always disappointed when I do.

 

Instead I use our extreme speed to try to grab objectives late after I've beaten up the enemy a bit.

[Leonaides]

sounds like you should go with a basic scout squad. 10 men, sniper rifles, missile launcher... Split into combat squads if needed, can loiter within 1ft of the objective and move to hold it late game if you cant just sit on it. A 3++ cover save if it all goes to pot on the last couple of turns and they get shot at ought to keep someone alive to hold the objective...

[Brother_Dan'l]

I don't understand the question. Why would you "camp" on an objective instead of just killing all the Emperor's enemies? Why would you waste time hanging around the campfire singing silly songs? ;)

 

;)

 

 

I go with the "Best Defense Is A Good Offense" as it fits our codex so well. And while it may seem like a waste to leave a Razorback RAS on your objective, it's only a 125 point waste. Even with a few upgrades you really aren't likely to spend more than 150-160 points on that unit. And with "Go to Ground!" boosting your cover save the only way somebody can shift them off the objective is with an assault. Darn! The RAS has to fight an assault? How sad. ^_^

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I just wanted to add... I use now a mix of JP and mech nearly all the time. At least for me, it has ALWAYS been better to start everything on the table. DoA was good when I was using mostly JP's but in the mixed list it was always a failure.

 

In a mixed list you have fewer deep striking units, and despite the re-rolls I always manage to roll poorly hah... but what happens is, for the first 3 turns my opponent is hammering my few units on the table, then piece-meal my assault units come in and have no support and cannot assault - major fail.

 

What I do now is... my two tactical squads either camp objectives or throw up a 24" range threat zone; and my baal and/or vindie plus transports provide a mobile cover shield for my assault troops. I've started using Shield of Sang as well to throw up a 5+ because my opponents use a lot of vindicators and battlecannons. This way I arrive with a lot more muscle when it's time to 'shake and bake' the assault troops.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

So the big question is what do you use as an objective camper?

 

To answer this question specifically. I use two tactical squads. One is a 10man with Plasmagun and Multimelta. They are my 24" threat zone and I try to place them nearest the middle of the board or middle objective so they move as little as possible.

 

My other tactical is a 10man (combat squads) with Missile Launcher, and Flamer and Powerfist. The Missile launcher camps on a far objective or highest perch possible (in cover if possible), while the flamer, sarg and Corbulo go in a razorback (part of my mobile screen). This also serves the purpose of sharing Corbulo's FnP bubble with the assault units behind the transports.

 

Side note: I also like to put my sergeants on top of the rhino both to remind myself of what's inside, and also to give my powerfist-fearing opponents something to think about.

[shatter]

I like sniper scouts with ML & cloaks. 2/3 of rifle rends glance or better on av 11. In terrain (with GtG esp), they can get a descent save. SoS with GtG is a 3+ in the open which is as good a save as any other scoring unit (sans sanguard). And pinning can be a game winner especially when supporting assault infantry imo. They also dont need a ride/jp to be as good as they can be, unlike most (BA) infantry.

The beacon option is for all DS units. Not just terminators.

[SamaNagol]

Your transports move 18 inches... You don't need objective campers. You will need those bodies up front taking objectives off the enemy.

 

Don't bother with them

[I am Legion]

This is tough to say.

 

I try to build all-rounder lists. Really, they should include a camping unit, but I can never find enough points to have one. Instead I do like James said. Return late game after the enemy has nothing left to work with to claim the objectives. If I cant's at least my DEVs who sit on the objetive will contest it. But I am working on my lists and I am thinking of adding another 10xRAS to go up and fight, and having a small 5xRAS to grab objectives.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

I think rather than objective campers, we just need an additional troops choice. I always take two troops unless it's a 2k point game, but now I think if the game's 1500+ I should take a third troops squad.

It ensures that we have an objective-claimer left after all the fighting's done.

[I am Legion]

Well I've always tried to have 3 troop choices. Especially at 1750 point games. But it really is hard to find the points with all of our options.

[yodaid764]

I like sniper scouts with ML & cloaks. 2/3 of rifle rends glance or better on av 11. In terrain (with GtG esp), they can get a descent save. SoS with GtG is a 3+ in the open which is as good a save as any other scoring unit (sans sanguard). And pinning can be a game winner especially when supporting assault infantry imo. They also dont need a ride/jp to be as good as they can be, unlike most (BA) infantry.

The beacon option is for all DS units. Not just terminators.

 

 

I think I have missed something there. Sniper rifles have no STR value, but wound on a 4+ so how can it rend a vehicle? Even if you roll a D6 + D3 for rending that is 9 at best. What am I missing?

 

And On Topic: I think that scouts with the rifles and camo cloaks are very survivable. More so if you happen to have a priest within range to give them FNP.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

Well I've always tried to have 3 troop choices. Especially at 1750 point games. But it really is hard to find the points with all of our options.

I hear that!

 

And yodaid, sniper rifles have strength 3 for the purposes of penetrating vehicles.

[Corby]

I like sniper scouts with ML & cloaks. 2/3 of rifle rends glance or better on av 11. In terrain (with GtG esp), they can get a descent save. SoS with GtG is a 3+ in the open which is as good a save as any other scoring unit (sans sanguard). And pinning can be a game winner especially when supporting assault infantry imo. They also dont need a ride/jp to be as good as they can be, unlike most (BA) infantry.

The beacon option is for all DS units. Not just terminators.

 

 

I think I have missed something there. Sniper rifles have no STR value, but wound on a 4+ so how can it rend a vehicle? Even if you roll a D6 + D3 for rending that is 9 at best. What am I missing?

 

And On Topic: I think that scouts with the rifles and camo cloaks are very survivable. More so if you happen to have a priest within range to give them FNP.

 

 

A single Land speeder with a heavy flamer will mess them right up though. Best bet is a 5 Man assault marine squad with removed jump packs in a lascannon razorback.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I like sniper scouts with ML & cloaks. 2/3 of rifle rends glance or better on av 11. In terrain (with GtG esp), they can get a descent save. SoS with GtG is a 3+ in the open which is as good a save as any other scoring unit (sans sanguard). And pinning can be a game winner especially when supporting assault infantry imo. They also dont need a ride/jp to be as good as they can be, unlike most (BA) infantry.

The beacon option is for all DS units. Not just terminators.

 

 

I think I have missed something there. Sniper rifles have no STR value, but wound on a 4+ so how can it rend a vehicle? Even if you roll a D6 + D3 for rending that is 9 at best. What am I missing?

 

And On Topic: I think that scouts with the rifles and camo cloaks are very survivable. More so if you happen to have a priest within range to give them FNP.

 

As already noted sniper rifles are S3 against vehicles... so rending can work. But Scouts with cloaks are WAY too expensive for what they are worth imo... don't forget they hit on 4+ and then still need 4+ to wound or a 6 to possibly scratch a vehicle. And remember that FnP doesn't work on cover saves... so the cloaks and FnP do not work together.

They are not a terrible unit - but we can get a lot more and better stuff. I'd say they are more worth taking without the cloaks. It's just silly to sink that much points into scouts imo... without the cloaks a few more may die, but hey - they are scouts. I hope my opponent wastes a turn shooting at them to be honest.

[Brother_Dan'l]

Time Out! Who says FNP won't work on cover saves? The only times it doesn't work are laid out very specifically in the rule and no mention is made of Cover Saves. So I think you've got that one wrong.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Time Out! Who says FNP won't work on cover saves? The only times it doesn't work are laid out very specifically in the rule and no mention is made of Cover Saves. So I think you've got that one wrong.

 

This is what I've always gone by...

Cannot be used with... "wound against which no armour save can ever be taken"... though I suppose that wording could be interpreted different ways.

 

Example:

An Angelis Bolter against a scout will not ever allow for an armour save... the scout could get a cover save; by since he could not get an armour save he cannot use FnP.

 

You could probably argue that - since some models (not the targeted scouts) could get an armour save from the Angelis Bolter, that any shot from that weapon, would be fair game for FnP. I dunno... I've always played the former though.

[Leonaides]

Erm - think that your interpretation may be a bit left of left field there, m'boy...

 

Something that no armour saves can ever be taken - PW or similar(for example, though there are a few ranged weapons). AP1 and AP 2 are also rules out if I recall correctly. But FNP can be used against a weapon thats AP3, evne if the enemy only has a 5+ save. UNLESS that weapon is also double the targets toughness (thus causing Instant Death).

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Erm - think that your interpretation may be a bit left of left field there, m'boy...

 

Something that no armour saves can ever be taken - PW or similar(for example, though there are a few ranged weapons). AP1 and AP 2 are also rules out if I recall correctly. But FNP can be used against a weapon thats AP3, evne if the enemy only has a 5+ save. UNLESS that weapon is also double the targets toughness (thus causing Instant Death).

 

I'd like to hear how most folks play this? ...I'd love to hear that I wrong. ;) ...however to be honest, it won't really make that much of a difference; as most weapons that force Marines to take cover saves instead of armour saves would NOT allow for FnP with either interpretation - that being battlecannons, demolishers, plasma, lascannons, melta etc...

[shatter]

The rule doesn't include weapons that simply 'penetrate' as in an Armour Penetration rating on a weapon. Exceptions are listed as (page 75) AP1, 2, instant death capable weapons and PW equivalents.

 

The rule is based around the power of the weapon inflicting the wound. Not the armour value of the model being hit.

[Morticon]

The rule doesn't include weapons that simply 'penetrate' as in an Armour Penetration rating on a weapon. Exceptions are listed as (page 75) AP1, 2, instant death capable weapons and PW equivalents.

 

The rule is based around the power of the weapon inflicting the wound. Not the armour value of the model being hit.

 

Yup! What he said!

 

Tzeentch/Sternguard bolters, Dark Reapers etc all allow for FNP !

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

The rule doesn't include weapons that simply 'penetrate' as in an Armour Penetration rating on a weapon. Exceptions are listed as (page 75) AP1, 2, instant death capable weapons and PW equivalents.

 

The rule is based around the power of the weapon inflicting the wound. Not the armour value of the model being hit.

 

Yup! What he said!

 

Tzeentch/Sternguard bolters, Dark Reapers etc all allow for FNP !

 

Works for me! ...now hopefully my group won't put up a stink. Honestly though, I don't see this really helping too much. I mean sternguard are fairly common, but it is usually just one unit and I don't see a lot of folks taking reapers anymore for some reason... tzeentch almost never... I still think that most of the weapons that will deny us an armour save are also either double-toughness (instant death capable) or ap1&2... but I'm sure I'll find a use for it.

[Brother Nathan]

you get fnp vs inferno cannons... Its in the rule book. if they have a problem show it to them. its a 2way street and could help them as much as it does you.

[Israfel]

Thank you for the comments so far Brethern. I don't feel very comfortable with the all out attack approach to be honest. I think it's too risky, having at least one objective to call my own and hunting the rest afterwards seems more plausible to me. Then again, I guess those who suggest such tactic has succes with it :sweat: I always prefer to have a home point from where the defensive elements of my army can pour down supporting fire for my offensive elements. I've been playtesting a combination of a 10 man tactical squad and a 5 man rocket bearing Devastator squad as my home objective defenders. So far it has worked ok, but it's kind of expensive and I'm allocating a considerable chunk from my assault elements which inevatibly means that I "punch" with a lesser force, I believe feel more synergy could be derived. Maybe I should try the all out attack approach a few times to know for sure :)