Blood Claws Foot slooging

[Grizwald714]

I was wondering if anyonyone has tried running a unit on 15 blood claws on foot w/ power weapon flanmer and plasma gun with a termie wolf guard leader. For the rest of my troops I was planning on running 3 grey Hunter Squads in rhinos witch they could use as cover. I was thinking of doing this in a tournament but I thing I might waste 240 points cauze thell just get shoot down before they do any good. Also I was wondering how a wolf lord on a thunder wolf accompied by fenris wolves does basically using the wolves to eat the wonds he would get in the process of making it inot battle. I was also thinking of keeping the loed on the tw in reserve.

[Anpu42]

I run them all of the Time, but you don't want the Terminator, you want a Wolf Priest.

 

If you have not read it look at my Space Wolf Tactica

[Link in my Sig]

[Gerwulf]

I tried foot slogging them once... and they died horribly :) but i guess the major problem was that most of the remaining army was mechanized and the BC were a prime target.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

My thoughts are that if you're taking a big mob of Blood Claws they need a Rune Priest casting storm caller on them. I think they can go to ground for a 4+ cover save if they really must.

[Grey Mage]

Its not a horrible idea, but there are issues, mostly price- theyre the same price as GHs, and a large pack like that is going to get expensive, fast- 250pts with just a Powerfist and a Flamer. While its alot of bodies, alot of them are likely to die on the way, and such a large horde will attract attention.

 

Perhaps a good way to get them to the enemy, without resorting to a landraider, would be to screen them and a couple Grey Hunter packs with a pair of large Fenrisian Wolf packs- who can act as meat shields, or perhaps tie up enemy fire support squads in CC early on, giving them time to come over and rip something apart.

 

A WGTDA wouldnt be a bad choice, if nothing else just so you can take a few AP 3 shots on him.

[Azekai]

I run them all of the Time, but you don't want the Terminator, you want a Wolf Priest.

 

Agreed. If you have your heart set on footslogging, give those pups a wolf priest. Then give said wolf priest the saga that allows the unit to outflank.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Saga of the Hunter only allows the character to outflank.

[S. Bloodhowl]

I have 2 10 man squads slogging it out on foot, with one led by a Rune Priest the other on it's own. Usually I lose about 4 or 5 between the 2 squads before combat but they still preform brilliantly.

I think the reason that they don't die so much is because my whole army foot slogs, with the exception of my Wolf Guard and Wolf Lord who come in via Drop Pod, which means that the opponent has to choose between them, some Grey Hunters with a Wulfen, a Venerable Dreadnought, some Scouts, and a Rune Priest hurling lightning at them! I also tend to miss out the '4 attacks on the charge' rule and just describe them as Power Armoured scouts when my opponent asks about them :)

 

 

When I'm deploying I also tend to have them on the flanks with my hard hitters in the middle so that my opponent will tend to focus on them rather than the Blood Claws.

 

If you're using rhinos to screen them then have them in a line as the advance, disembark Grey Hunters as you wish ans then when your close enough have the rhinos split up and the Blood Claws charge through them.

 

 

::EDIT:: Tried to do a little tactical map thing but it didn't work :D

[Anpu42]

There are a few tricks to running Blood Claws/Skyclaws/Swiftclaws

1] But them in Groups of 15

2] Just give them the 2 Flamers and don't worry about thier BS

3] Give them a Wolf Priest

4] Wolf Guard [battle or Pack] are good with them.

5] If you take more than one they will be the Core of your Army, Suport them.

6] Stay awayform TDA, It gets rid of one of your more Powerful tools, the Sweeping Advance.

7] Stay away from Dreads and Vehicles all the will do is tie you up, unless thats why you got them

.

[Valhalla]

I've never been a fan of a foot slogging army especially for an assault army which blood claws are for. I agree with the Wolf Pries but in my mind if you're going to run BC's they need to be in a land raider. I'd also put the PF on a WGL, you spend 3 extra points for an extra attack plus higher WS and leadership.

[guinness drinking dwarf]

Played against an Eldar force last wed. I had 15 bloods and WG foot slogging across the board after there LRC was destroyed (its was even smoked, but I failed the cover) by the first shot of my opponent’s go. Needless to say the bloods were down to 1 man by the end of the same shooting phase. I hate dark reapers!!!

Like the post above , if you plan to footslog be carefull and take some mobile cover!!

[S. Bloodhowl]

I'll be playing a fellow SW player tomorrow night, heresy I know, if I remember I'll post up how my foot slogging Blood Claws did

[Wysten]

Foot slogging blood claws sounds a weak idea.

 

I would much rather take 2 packs of 10 skyclaws, for 3 points more they all get jetpacks, allowing you to cover twice the ground every single turn. More speed means they will be forced to fire on the Skyclaws, and perhaps they may actually make it to close combat. 6 Inches a turn sounds really slow for a very assualty unit, terminator slow infact.

[Grey Mage]

Foot slogging blood claws sounds a weak idea.

 

I would much rather take 2 packs of 10 skyclaws, for 3 points more they all get jetpacks, allowing you to cover twice the ground every single turn. More speed means they will be forced to fire on the Skyclaws, and perhaps they may actually make it to close combat. 6 Inches a turn sounds really slow for a very assualty unit, terminator slow infact.

Its just as fast as an eldar on foot :tu:.

 

And with run, your averaging 10 inches a turn, not much slower than a rhino... and for a squad with almost no shooting....

[Anpu42]

The 1st time I played them, I had 15+Wolf Priest+Wolf Guard Pack Leader

On turn two a 5 Man Vanguard armed with Power Weapons and Storm Shield Heroic Interventions into them

-I failed my Counter Attack Roll

-They were Jump Infantry so my Oath of War Was Useless

-He dane very Save and Finished them off in Wto Assualt Phases, mostly thanks the No Save vs the Power Weapons and Fealess.

 

If I had conciered them Worthelss after that, I would not Have the Following Kill Recored with them

-1 Harliquin Troop

-4 Tervigons

-I do not know how many Space Marine Squads.

[postal105]

i have tried this and i normally find that a blood claw pack of that size tends to be a magnet for large amounts of shots and by the time they reach heir target to assault it their is little to nothing left of them.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I started playing with my Templars in 09.

I started off on Foot. It worked quite well. I was mostly playing my brother's Orks. We'd both move+run towards one another and smash!

 

As the games progressed, I started to clue into things. I did lose a few guys to shooting on the way in. Against Orks. Orks can't shoot very well.

What would happen against a list with bs3 or *gulp* bs4?

 

The other was that we were both happy rushing our guys forward. What happens when my foe decided not to be so obliging and come straight for me?

 

So while I was enjoying a winning record, I started trying out this Mech malarky that the Net was proclaiming. Whilst it hasn't contributed heaps to my games against my brother's Orks, I found that Tau and Eldar were not whittling me away with withering firepower.

Once they'd popped my humble Rhinos, my dear Marines could evaporate to the Xenos's shootiness.

 

What chance would I have if I Foot-slogged across the TT from T1? I shudder to think.

 

I feel Templars do Foot better than other Marines. Move+Run for 9.5". Get shot, cheap Neophyte [scout] dies, and Righteous Zeal another 3.5"

13" covered per Turn.

 

Claws move 9.5" and don't have 2/3 priced Neophytes to eat shooty death.

 

I cannot see them doing well if your foe is not another Rushing army.

 

Even if you close on a shooty foe, all he needs to do is stick a small unit in your face and move his other units back. The Claws mulch the small unit on the charge and then get scythed down by his army.

 

Hammernators would love to get there hands on this unit.

5 Templar Assault Terms [215 pts] with twin-LC, FC and preferred enemy kill 13.3 MEq guys on the charge. That is 225+ pts of Claw turned into red vapour.

 

A big unit like this just makes it easier for proper assault units to make their moneys worth.

[Grey Mage]

Hammernators would love to get there hands on this unit.

5 Templar Assault Terms [215 pts] with twin-LC, FC and preferred enemy kill 13.3 MEq guys on the charge. That is 225+ pts of Claw turned into red vapour.

While Ill agree on many of your points- though I note, fenrisian wolves are cheap screening units that can tie up the enemies....

 

15 Bloodclaws with a Wolf Priest a Powerfist, and a Flamer *how I run mine* on the charge will get:

 

4 PW attacks. At WS 5. Thats 1 kill on a terminator, after invulnerable saves.

3 PF attacks. At WS 3. Thats ~1.5 kills on a terminator after invulnerable saves.

55 Normal attacks. At WS 3. Thats 42 hits, 21 wounds, and another 3.5 dead terminators.

 

So, on average thats Six dead TDA on the charge. Sure, its 350pts as equiped.....

 

But without furious charge, the 5 templar assault terminators will kill simultaneously about 8-9 bloodclaws. Due to the way wound allocation works the powerfist and flamer will still be alive, and if that many bloodclaws are dead the wolf priest hasnt taken any wounds. A squad of six bloodclaws with a wolf priest is still going to be more capable in assault than a 10 man assault squad with a powerweapon/fist.

 

Of course, this is just averages....

 

But to say that bloodclaws arent a real assault squad is kind of silly.

 

This unit of mine has killed Marneus Calgar and his 5 TDA bodygaurds in two rounds of combat, taking about 50% losses, the last four times Ive ran into him. The Chapter Master now runs from them, much to my delight.

[Wysten]

Foot slogging blood claws sounds a weak idea.

 

I would much rather take 2 packs of 10 skyclaws, for 3 points more they all get jetpacks, allowing you to cover twice the ground every single turn. More speed means they will be forced to fire on the Skyclaws, and perhaps they may actually make it to close combat. 6 Inches a turn sounds really slow for a very assualty unit, terminator slow infact.

Its just as fast as an eldar on foot :).

 

And with run, your averaging 10 inches a turn, not much slower than a rhino... and for a squad with almost no shooting....

 

Wait wait, when have we seen eldar on foot? ; )

 

I guess, if theres something more dangerous out there, could be worth trying. a couple packs of Thunderwolf followed by waves upon waves of raging blood claws? I would imagine there would be no army capable of dealing with that kind of offensive.

[Grey Mage]

Id say one pack of Thunderwolves, two packs of Long Fangs, and two packs of 15 Fenrisian Wolves. Maybe an Ironpriest, mounted, with 4 pups *I call him my Thunderpriest :)*

 

Second wave being two or three squads of Grey Hunters, a Runepriest or Wolfpriest, and 15 bloodclaws- all with TDA packleaders.

 

Throw in a whirlwind, and a pack of scouts, and youve got a decent 1750 list.

 

I might have to try that out next month. If I can find the TWC proxies....

[Marshal Wilhelm]

A squad of six bloodclaws with a wolf priest is still going to be more capable in assault than a 10 man assault squad with a powerweapon/fist.

 

Of course, this is just averages....

 

But to say that bloodclaws arent a real assault squad is kind of silly.

 

Perhaps I am being more of a snob with what I'd call a real assault unit. :P

MEq don't get that gong in my book and it's usually because they are TROOPS.

 

If you are talking about Assault Marines, I don't consider them a real assault unit.

 

I wouldn't consider a 10+10 Crusader squad a real assault squad either. 260 pts

Yet that puts out:

11.7 pistol hits

37.5 mêlée hits

 

Having such a sized foot print makes them easy to tank-shock and dodge PF, Mg, etc. Or you can move-block them by driving a Rhino at their centre and so they lose forwards ground.

Templates get a far better bang-for-buck when targeting such a large squad, and if you string them out to avoid that, they get hung up on terrain.

 

Having to put the Wolf Priest with them to give them good morale and hit often in combat is a weakness imo. I feel the 5th ed dexes were let down by have the 2nd set of heroes being ICs and yet only having i4. Take him out and the squad loses a big buff. You can hide him, but then you are missing out on those power weapon attacks.

 

Imo, Wolf Priest occupy that awkward middle middle ground. Lords Eq are big and burly and so can take the punishment. Sang Priests are puny and so can hide from the action. Wolf Priests Eq are not cheap enough to keep out of the fray, but not burly enough to reliable last.

 

+++

 

Remember that you are using a 350 point unit against a 215 point one. For that price you get 8 Templar Terms.

Not charging ~ 13.5 MEq kills.

Charging ~ 21.3 MEq kills.

 

Against Hammernators.

Your PW and Claws i4 attacks kill 0.6 + 3.4 = 4 dead

9 Hammernators initially.

5 left.

4.17 dead Claws

and then the PF gives another 0.42 dead Hammernators.

The Claws win 5-4. Not really impressive for an assault unit on the charge to just pip the other unit.

* although we haven't taken into account the 0.7 shooting wounds, which should cancel another Claw death.

 

9 Hammernators Charging.

30 Claw attacks. 3 Priest attacks.

22.5 & 2.7 hit.

11.25 & 1.35 wound.

1.9 & 0.45 = 2.35 dead.

Lets say 3 die.

 

18 TH attacks. 9 hit. 7.5 dead.

 

1 PF attack, lets say it fluffs [as we rounded up 0.35 to a whole kill]

 

Claws lose by at least 4, giving a Fearless wound.

 

They have both killed 120 pts worth of one another.

 

+++

 

I haven't come up with a neat "Real Assault Unit" criteria. It is more just feel at the moment. :lol:

 

1] Anything with Furious charge is in*, as killing things before they get to attack is a big advantage, more than the +1s buff, imo. [so not Ork boyz]

2] Power weapons for killing MEq.

or

Oodles of attacks, which kill hordes and saturate units so they cannot WA wounds away from specialists.

3] Doesn't rely on [not high level] ICs to buff the unit to become effective.

4] Is quick, by transport or unit type.

5] Doesn't rely on being Horde to make it happen

6] If flimsy, has high i to offset that or if has low i, is durable.

 

So that should mean:

Khorne Berzerkers [though they suffer from their Codex], Chaos Terms,

Blood letters, Flesh hounds, Blood crushers, Fiends,

Banshees, Harlequins,

Incubi,

Nobz [tooled up ones]

Pariahs,

Ultra + Blood Hammernators,

Blood LC Terms [with FC], Sang Guard, Death Company,

WG Terms, TWC,

BT LC Terms [with FC]

Tyranid Prime, Lictors are odd, being like ICs.

Tyranid Warriors & Shrikes [with Lash-whip or Boneswords] Genestealers [hidden Broodlord helps] Ravener,

 

I think MCs make it in, though some are pretty weak at killing many things per turn.

[Grey Mage]

Of course, something to note- while the Claws lose in some of those situations, each loss hits them less than it does the terminators- 5 dead terminators is 200pts, while 4 dead BCs is 60pts, to use your Hammernator numbers.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Of course, something to note- while the Claws lose in some of those situations, each loss hits them less than it does the terminators- 5 dead terminators is 200pts, while 4 dead BCs is 60pts, to use your Hammernator numbers.

 

And maybe that is something in my thinking.

 

I didn't like Tacs because they are weak in mêlée. Marines ought to be good in mêlée [my fluff conviction]. Therefore Tacs are bad. It's only been by hanging out on 3++ that I started to re-assess my view on them.

Also, combat tactics has helped them get out of mêlée and get back to shooting, so I believe that UM Tacs are the best Tacs we have ever had.

 

Similarly, if an Assault Unit is barely beating another unit, yet because its loses are [point for point] lower, though I can see that is a win, it doesn't press my "That is a good win" buttons.

 

Losing more slowly than your foe is how to win games. However, it seems odd that a unit that is only really good in mêlée has to use such wins to scrape out being valuable.

Like Homer wearing out Drederick Tatum boxing.

 

Claws and Crusaders will bully most units in mêlée, but against hardcore units, they get shown up.

I have at least three tiers in assault units.

Contenders [those 'real' assault units], Pretenders [Claws and Crusaders] and the Victims [Tacs, any Tau, etc.].

 

Whilst getting Pretenders into action against Victims or even other Pretenders [providing you use 2:1 kind of thing] is a winning idea, I still don't think of them as hardcore assault units.

 

Maybe it's a philosophical difference....