Sanguinor VS Mephiston

[I am Legion]

I'm trying to build a Boost List, and we have a few options and one of them was the Sanguinor. Problem is, he's so fraking expensive. Mephiston is simply a Monstrous Creature for all intensive purposes incased in a marine shell. So I want to know who's had experience using Sanguinor, cause I don't see him in many lists or many topics revolving around him. It's usually Mephiston because he really is good. I played him once before and you can just feel the prescence he brings to the table. I'm wondering if The Sanguinor does the same.

[ImperialReaper]

I am afraid I cant help you with your issue but I was wondering how you make the "marine shell" work around Mephiston since he has no Independent Character rule.

[Mudpuppet]

I am afraid I cant help you with your issue but I was wondering how you make the "marine shell" work around Mephiston since he has no Independent Character rule.

I think he means that Mephy is a space marine with the stat line of a monstrous creature, not refering to some tactic of surrounding Mephy with marines as some sort of meat shield.

[Volcatus]

I am afraid I cant help you with your issue but I was wondering how you make the "marine shell" work around Mephiston since he has no Independent Character rule.

 

He's using an idiom of sorts there to describe Mephiston. By saying a Monstrous Creature in a Marine Shell, he's going for a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing effect.

 

He isn't saying he attached him to a squad for an ablative wounds effect or anything.

[ohara]

I haven’t really used the Sanguinor so no help there I’m afraid.

I do agree with what you say about meph though. I use him regularly and he is a complete and utter beast. He is almost like a daemon prince but for a loyalist chapter and still looks like a marine.

Does anyone know if it is ok to base mephy on a terminator base? Is this cheating? I am only considering doing it so i can make his base look epic and balance the weight of the wings I have attached to him.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

Does anyone know if it is ok to base mephy on a terminator base? Is this cheating? I am only considering doing it so i can make his base look epic and balance the weight of the wings I have attached to him.

Changing base sizes is a pro/con situation. Going up in base size is generally acceptable, unless it's with a character that has a whirlwind-like attack (Seth/Canis). In the end it's up to your opponent.

[SnorriSnorrison]

@ I am Legion:

 

I think that the reason you don't see the Sanguinor is that he is even more expensive than Meph and is not "that" of a powerhouse.

Meph has the chance of killing absolutely everything in the room, even big monsters. The Sanguinor has other special rules, but the pointcosts are a heavy weight.

 

And the fluff of that guy is terrible. Just terrible.

 

 

Snorri

[I am Legion]

Don't get me wrong I totally agree with you, but the list I'm working on, ( here) includes alot of RAS, so boosting them to the point where I can get furious charge FNP, and and extra attack per marine, can make it very useful to have him.

[Khavos]

Mephiston is a beatstick. He's a very good beatstick, but that's really all he is. The Sanguinor is deceptively good in combat, especially against his chosen IC, and he's a considerable force multiplier. You won't see 250+ vanish just 'cause the other guy brought a few plasma guns with him. Despite that, he's overpriced. If I had to choose between the two, I'd go Sanguinor every time. He adds more to the army than his own raw killing power, yet his own raw killing power is still very good. His T4 may make him look weak, but if he's in a FNP bubble, it'd still take six full Tactical squads in Rapid Fire range to kill him, on average.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Its when the Sanguinor is close by several other units all engaged in assault that his +1A aura really comes into play. The Sanguinor is more of a scalpel while the Lord of Death is a sledge hammer... So it takes more skill to use the former and take advantage of what he has to offer. The Angel's Blessing is really a nice buff. I don't see Mephiston being as useful in a DoA army as compared to mech though.

 

0b :lol:

[Drachnon]

I think that if your list is about boosting your assault marines you're stuck with the sanguinor. Though if you play 2k and want to go crazy you might just field them both ;).

 

EDIT:

Ok after doing some math in 2k you could field both Mephiston and the sanguinor plus 5 assault marines (5 squads of 10 marines each with powerfist and 2 melta guns) as well as 4 priests with jump pack.

[Crynn]

Mephiston is a beatstick. He's a very good beatstick, but that's really all he is. The Sanguinor is deceptively good in combat, especially against his chosen IC, and he's a considerable force multiplier. You won't see 250+ vanish just 'cause the other guy brought a few plasma guns with him. Despite that, he's overpriced. If I had to choose between the two, I'd go Sanguinor every time. He adds more to the army than his own raw killing power, yet his own raw killing power is still very good. His T4 may make him look weak, but if he's in a FNP bubble, it'd still take six full Tactical squads in Rapid Fire range to kill him, on average.

 

6 tac squads in rapid fire range to kill sang and only 30 to kill meph? hmm i know which one id take for toughness but it more comes down to this. Meph will always be better in a mechanized list than the sanguinor in a abalanced list I still believe Meph is more potent but in a pur DoA jumpers list or one with few vehickes the sanguinor is a better choice. Meph really needs vehicles to hide behind or squads for screening. One thing to watch out for with the sang though is walkers that will tie him up. You have to make sure none are in charge range of him. Meph on th other hand will indescriminently kill anything he hits. His str makes him so much more combat effective than the sang for instant deathing anything from character and biggins like tyranid creatures and the c'tan too nobs and thunder cav, it really is a huge advantage that really isn't factored in that much not too mention how he tears a apart vehicles and vechile squadrons.

 

I have had much experience with both characters and while the Sang has been stella in some games he just doesnt have the reliability of Meph who never under performs. The +1 attack aura is nice but as a force multiplier meph can be amazing in that he is a 19 - 24" death buble that says dont bring any no eternal warrior HQ or MC or any Multi wound DS star sqauds within this radius unless you want to loose them before you attack! This is why he can be a force multiplier. He can keep opponents at range or away from units you dont want a ssaulted. Also I would never go into a tournament without any psychic defence. I would actually say in a comp game Meph is actually a better force multiplier than the sang just due to how your opponent has to alter his play.

 

Hope that Helps

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[I am Legion]

@ Crynn - it does help, and it does make sense. I've noticed there are a few ways to Kill Mephiston (i.e. plasma spam and thunder hammer termies), whereas Sanguinor will eventually whittle those sort of units down. So they really do two differant things on the field which is fine.

 

@ Drachnon - Not many tournaments in my area at that point level , but both would be terribly beardy. Which brings me to my next point of the discussion:

 

 

Both of our overpriced monsters in a single competitive game. I'm thinking I don't really need vehicles or anything, I can simply move up behind cover until it's time to engage the enemy. I calculated that you can have both plus 30 RAS, and a priest in a 1500 point game. At this point level the opponent doesn't have much in the way of units on the table unless its a horde, and they're split up more along the board, instead of being clumped up like in bigger games. At 1750, we keep adding more RAS or Priests or both. Now 1750 is already at tournament level, meaning that having both of these guys together on either side of the board will put the opponent on a defensive stance.

 

So are both of these guys a viable choice for games, or is it not a really good idea as it's such a point sink. Just imagine the look on your opponents face when he has to deal with both of these guys. Imagine the resources he will pour into them each turn.....Discuss....

[Brother Nathan]

another thing to think about is that the sanguinator has a jump pack and mephy dosent. yes mephy has the wings power but a) he can fail it, and :D he cant use it to deepstrike, which can potentiallly make him even better. most things id be weary of deepstriking, but not him causeeven though he cant do anything when he arrives he still boosts a unit near him thats in cc, and is unlikely to die to shooting. and with doe hes quite accurate too, specially if he runs towards it... and then he canjoin in with the cc if its still going the next turn, think i may have just convinced myself...drat!

[Crynn]

@ Crynn - it does help, and it does make sense. I've noticed there are a few ways to Kill Mephiston (i.e. plasma spam and thunder hammer termies), whereas Sanguinor will eventually whittle those sort of units down. So they really do two differant things on the field which is fine.

 

 

I have already written in a number of threads how much tougher Meph is vs plasma compared to the sanguinor, you just have to give him a cover save. If you cant manage that then I suggest you don't play Meph. I'm not writing the Math again to show it is extremely obvious even without calculation.

TH?SS termies are a different question however for ever unit you can give me that the sanguinor is better against in combat I will literally give you 10 where Meph is better.

 

Yes Sanguinor has a jump pack and meph doesnt but how do you fail casting wings three times? Unless your versing eldar there is just no reason meph shouldnt have wings. Meph also has fleet sang doesnt. Meph also has a plasma pistol which is vastly under rated. Again most things that provide psychic defence are psychers themselves and thus meph brings his own defense. He also has an ability where he can make any IC roll a -4ld test to reroll hits and wounds against it, that beats the sang 'pick one HQ' any day of the week as it is usefull after the initial 'duel'.

 

The sang is good but he aint the beat stick that Meph is nor is he as versitile. he has better buffs but no psychic defence.

 

If i were you I'd take Meph as priority over Sang put both in if you like it will work as they will help each other out with target saturation. Meph is much better in mech Sang in JP. If you put those asssault squads in rhinos take meph, if they have packs take sang and get a 100 point lib with rage and shield/sword with a pac to boost a squad and give psychic defense.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[Ranwulf]

Rather go with MEC-phiston. He is more reliable than Sanguinor, specially if he have a Tank close to rpotect him.

 

Ran

[Brother Nathan]

A) eldar arnt the only army with phsycic defence, marines have hoods, wolves have a magic stick, nids have that bubble thing etc. not entirely surefire that.

B)he can still fail, and can perrils of the warp, and has no save against it...

C)yes i know mephy has a plasmapistol and fleet, personally id fleet unless im veryclose, and though unlikely he does risk overheat...

D) none of those was the point i was making with the jump pack. Mephy cant deepstrike, sanguinator can. which would increase his srvivabilty as hes getting shot at less, and you can put him where you want fairly reliably due to doa. and he may not be allowed into cc that round but auta provide his boost to cc if done correctly, running makes that easier. also cc blocks line of sight to him. Dont get me wrong mephy is better and cheaper but they act very differently. and the sang should have had an extra wound or toughness... though he dosnt need anyone to protect him from plasma and the like.

[Crynn]

A) eldar arnt the only army with phsycic defence, marines have hoods, wolves have a magic stick, nids have that bubble thing etc. not entirely surefire that.

B)he can still fail, and can perrils of the warp, and has no save against it...

C)yes i know mephy has a plasmapistol and fleet, personally id fleet unless im veryclose, and though unlikely he does risk overheat...

D) none of those was the point i was making with the jump pack. Mephy cant deepstrike, sanguinator can. which would increase his srvivabilty as hes getting shot at less, and you can put him where you want fairly reliably due to doa. and he may not be allowed into cc that round but auta provide his boost to cc if done correctly, running makes that easier. also cc blocks line of sight to him. Dont get me wrong mephy is better and cheaper but they act very differently. and the sang should have had an extra wound or toughness... though he dosnt need anyone to protect him from plasma and the like.

 

Eldar defense is the only one that really effects him, even the wolves on a r+ nul gives meph over an 87% chance of passing wings hence they are all almost irrilivant except eldar,

Yes he can fail preils of the warp he has 5 wounds, You can fail deepstrike and take a wound or just die.

Yuo would fleet unless your very close? Sometimes your within 6 inches it doesnt matter if your 6 away or 1 away from your target you shoot the pistol unless their is terrain in the way. Oh and for god sake he is not the 'Sanguinator' its Sanguinor.

And yes the Sang can deep strike however if you do that you are almost always a comlete moron. At best, AT BEST you will get a third turn charge doing this and considering he has no guns thats bad really bad. Meph on the other hand or the sang if you just deploy them will get at best 1st turn if they move towards you, almost always a second turn and only if you deployed like an idiot at worst a third turn charge. Your going to say if you run acros the board youll get shot more! well not true if you go first and manage to get a second turn charge you will have only been shot at once if they have gone first then put him out of line of site then move your first turn then you only get shot at once again. With deepstrike your going to stand their and get shot once anyway, and if things go bad you'll either die, take a wound or scatter and not be able to make it to terrain although unlikely. The point is no Competitive players would ever DS any of these two guys even if Meph could DS.

 

Regards

 

Crynn.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

For me it comes down to:

 

Sanguinor has a badass model.

 

Mephiston is the worst model in the BA range (now that Lemartes was redone).

[NExOBLIVISCARIS]

mephiston is more of a "power house make the enemy crap its pants" model. if you cant give him any cover he can get killed from mass of fire(which if the enemy is smart...he will do) but once you get him in cc its more of a sit back and laugh as your enemy cries because he lost his power unit to one dude. and when you do that if you listen very carefuly you can hear the distinct sound of brick falling out of his pants.

 

the sanguinor is like that guy that you just kind of want in the right place to make things near him a possible massacre. and the one leader buff is random so u can argue that you can choose which model gets it but its more or less up to your enemy if its random or not. personaly i like the sanguinor more then mephy cause i like army buffs more then singe units of doom.

[Ranwulf]

A) eldar arnt the only army with phsycic defence, marines have hoods, wolves have a magic stick, nids have that bubble thing etc. not entirely surefire that.

B)he can still fail, and can perrils of the warp, and has no save against it...

C)yes i know mephy has a plasmapistol and fleet, personally id fleet unless im veryclose, and though unlikely he does risk overheat...

D) none of those was the point i was making with the jump pack. Mephy cant deepstrike, sanguinator can. which would increase his srvivabilty as hes getting shot at less, and you can put him where you want fairly reliably due to doa. and he may not be allowed into cc that round but auta provide his boost to cc if done correctly, running makes that easier. also cc blocks line of sight to him. Dont get me wrong mephy is better and cheaper but they act very differently. and the sang should have had an extra wound or toughness... though he dosnt need anyone to protect him from plasma and the like.

 

A)Marines Hoods are usually 50% chance of stopping him from flying, as well Wolves(if you don't count Njal), even so most of the time he will be far away enough to not be caught in the "warp control" of the enemy until he can get to close enough to enemy to kill him. Besides he can make 3 Power per turn.

B)He have 5 Wounds. Perils we hurt him? Sure, from time to time, it still is more reliable than the Sanguinor since he can be killed by a concentration of shots and cannot get inside a freaking Vechile. Don't wanna make Mephy fly? Get him inside a Rhino or Razor, go 18', next turn kill your enemy.

C)Fleet is in my opinion the better option than Plasma Pistol, since you can loose the charge if you shoot one enemy and you are too far away.

D) Sanguinor deep striking is a HORRIBLE IDEA. He doesn't have a gun, so you will be doing nothing for 1 turn, plus whatever number of turns it will take for him to arrive, he can risk taking a wound, or dying, and specially, he will be probably shot to death by your enemy while he is stucked in that position. The Sanguinor still need protection in the sense he doens't have enough wounds to be unstopable, Lysander's is so TOUGH to kill because usually people get him Termies+LAnd Raiders, so is VERY HARD job to kill him, while Sanguinor cannot embark Vechiles, will have to rely in walls and other things to not get shot and survive enough to fight the enemy. Even when he get to enemy, that does not means he will "win", he cannot Unleash rage, and since he have a minimally improved statline, he is not reliable to either destroy tanks, kill large enemy troops or even fight some "HAmmer" units. Not to forget, Nullzone can be his bane.

 

Ran

[Crynn]

A) eldar arnt the only army with phsycic defence, marines have hoods, wolves have a magic stick, nids have that bubble thing etc. not entirely surefire that.

B)he can still fail, and can perrils of the warp, and has no save against it...

C)yes i know mephy has a plasmapistol and fleet, personally id fleet unless im veryclose, and though unlikely he does risk overheat...

D) none of those was the point i was making with the jump pack. Mephy cant deepstrike, sanguinator can. which would increase his srvivabilty as hes getting shot at less, and you can put him where you want fairly reliably due to doa. and he may not be allowed into cc that round but auta provide his boost to cc if done correctly, running makes that easier. also cc blocks line of sight to him. Dont get me wrong mephy is better and cheaper but they act very differently. and the sang should have had an extra wound or toughness... though he dosnt need anyone to protect him from plasma and the like.

 

A)Marines Hoods are usually 50% chance of stopping him from flying, as well Wolves(if you don't count Njal), even so most of the time he will be far away enough to not be caught in the "warp control" of the enemy until he can get to close enough to enemy to kill him. Besides he can make 3 Power per turn.

B)He have 5 Wounds. Perils we hurt him? Sure, from time to time, it still is more reliable than the Sanguinor since he can be killed by a concentration of shots and cannot get inside a freaking Vechile. Don't wanna make Mephy fly? Get him inside a Rhino or Razor, go 18', next turn kill your enemy.

C)Fleet is in my opinion the better option than Plasma Pistol, since you can loose the charge if you shoot one enemy and you are too far away.

D) Sanguinor deep striking is a HORRIBLE IDEA. He doesn't have a gun, so you will be doing nothing for 1 turn, plus whatever number of turns it will take for him to arrive, he can risk taking a wound, or dying, and specially, he will be probably shot to death by your enemy while he is stucked in that position. The Sanguinor still need protection in the sense he doens't have enough wounds to be unstopable, Lysander's is so TOUGH to kill because usually people get him Termies+LAnd Raiders, so is VERY HARD job to kill him, while Sanguinor cannot embark Vechiles, will have to rely in walls and other things to not get shot and survive enough to fight the enemy. Even when he get to enemy, that does not means he will "win", he cannot Unleash rage, and since he have a minimally improved statline, he is not reliable to either destroy tanks, kill large enemy troops or even fight some "HAmmer" units. Not to forget, Nullzone can be his bane.

 

Ran

 

 

Wow I honestly thought someone had copy paste my paragraph untill I read the Lysander part lol. The point i was making is that sometimes you dont need to fleet cause you are that close and a plasma pistol can take out one nasty termie before CC. Good point about using transports for Meph and pretty much,, 'what he said' to all this. One thing though, marine hoods have only a 40% chance of working, just a slight change there bro. It is good to see someone actually understands the idiocy in DS the sanguinor. I thought I was alone.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[Brother Nathan]

....agiain then when i said deepstrike the sanguinator its not nessarily about getting him into cc, like with meph, because of his buffer. And i did say meh is beter generally, but this is about not ruling out the other option. if everyone plays meph then ba become very boring... and dropping him is an option meph dosent have, just as getting in a veichle he dosent have. Not thatid really want to run either...

[Arturas]

They are apples & oranges. Meph is a combat monster who the sang can't compete with. but you don't use them the same way. the sang's purpose is to turn nearby RAS squads into veterans and one sarge into extra captain while being a threat to that big nasty enemy HQ.

 

And meph does have some significant weaknesses; units with lash whips or storm shields (or guard blobs) will drink his milkshake and every psychic power he doesn't get off seriously cuts down on his killing power.

 

Of course I tend to avoid both as a little bad luck with 250+ point models tends to ruin your day and that seems to be my lot with them.

[Vaesal]

Hmmh could you drop-pod meph??? I'd like the sound of that