Flanking Combat Squads

[hamani]

Hey guys.

 

So I was putting an all flankers army together with Khan and I'm not quite sure how his rules work with combat squads?

 

For example, a ten man tac squad in a rhino is in the army. Can they all enter via the rhino and 5 dismount in the movement phase as a combat squad (simular to a drop pod) or will 5 of them walk onto the board? How about 5 starting on the table and 5 flanking in the Rhino? Etc ...

 

Thanks for any help in advance guys!

 

Ga.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Hey guys.

 

So I was putting an all flankers army together with Khan and I'm not quite sure how his rules work with combat squads?

 

For example, a ten man tac squad in a rhino is in the army. Can they all enter via the rhino and 5 dismount in the movement phase as a combat squad (simular to a drop pod) or will 5 of them walk onto the board? How about 5 starting on the table and 5 flanking in the Rhino? Etc ...

 

Thanks for any help in advance guys!

 

Ga.

if they are in a transport in reserves they cannot combat squad (with the exception of drop pods due to specific rules of the droppod). You cannot start 5 on the table and 5 flanking either.

 

Combat squading happens when the unit deploys, untill then it is a 10 man unit. At the start of the game during deployment you can deploy the 10 man unit and then declare it has combat squaded placing each one seperately within the allowed area, You may place one combat squad in a transport at this time within the rules. Alternitively you can put them in reserve, in reserve they are a 10 man unit, you must declare how a unit will enter from reserves, who will be attached and if they will be embarked when you place them into reserve. Because of this if you declare they will enter via outflank embarked in a rhino, they must all be in that rhino when they are deployed (coming in from reserves is a way to deploy), and as only one unit may be in a transport at a time you cannot legaly combat squad them. In apocolypse you could likely get around that with a supperheavy transport as they do allow multiple squads. But if you want to put somethin in reserves in a transport, it effectivly loses the option of combat squading.

[hamani]

Brilliant reply Pyro.

 

Thanks =]

 

Ga.

[Algesan]

if they are in a transport in reserves they cannot combat squad (with the exception of drop pods due to specific rules of the droppod). You cannot start 5 on the table and 5 flanking either.

 

Combat squading happens when the unit deploys, untill then it is a 10 man unit. At the start of the game during deployment you can deploy the 10 man unit and then declare it has combat squaded placing each one seperately within the allowed area, You may place one combat squad in a transport at this time within the rules. Alternitively you can put them in reserve, in reserve they are a 10 man unit, you must declare how a unit will enter from reserves, who will be attached and if they will be embarked when you place them into reserve. Because of this if you declare they will enter via outflank embarked in a rhino, they must all be in that rhino when they are deployed (coming in from reserves is a way to deploy), and as only one unit may be in a transport at a time you cannot legaly combat squad them. In apocolypse you could likely get around that with a supperheavy transport as they do allow multiple squads. But if you want to put somethin in reserves in a transport, it effectivly loses the option of combat squading.

 

Hmmm, I would have read that to read that you could choose to combat squad at deployment and then put one of them in the transport (in reserves, outflanking, on the board, etc.) and leave the other one out.

 

I agree that except for drop pods you couldn't shove both half squads into their transport so that if you did outflank with both of them, one could ride in and the other walk in.

[Legatus]

Hmmm, I would have read that to read that you could choose to combat squad at deployment and then put one of them in the transport (in reserves, outflanking, on the board, etc.) and leave the other one out.

 

I agree that except for drop pods you couldn't shove both half squads into their transport so that if you did outflank with both of them, one could ride in and the other walk in.

Units held in reserve are not deployed. They are deployed when they enter the table, so that would be the point where they are split into two combat squads.

 

"When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve."

BRB, p. 94, "Preparing reserves"

 

"Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later."

BRB, p. 94, "Rolling for Reserves" (second paragraph)

 

"The decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit is deployed."

C:SM, p. 51, "Combat Squads" (third? paragraph)

[Algesan]

So, the late arrivals get to pull a slime trick since they don't "deploy" during the "deployment phase"? I can just go ahead and decide right before I move them on the board whether or not I'm going to combat squad them and only have one squad riding in the DT? Which is the clear reading of the rules you cited.

 

"During deployment, when declaring which units are left in reserve, the player must clearly explain the organization of his reserves to the opponent." - pg 94 (Preparing Reserves)

 

Or, do I have to clearly explain the organization of reserves to my opponent? Which I am unable to do if I don't (or cannot) make the call to combat squad until right before they hit the board, right?

 

Interesting call either way. If the reserves must be accurately described (i.e. - combat squad decision made when put in reserves), then I'd have two units to roll for and if they cannot be split until they arrive (i.e. - combat squad decision made right as they pull up to the board), then I only need to roll once for the DT + 2x half squads, right?

[Frosty the Pyro]

Combat squading cannot be decided when put into reserves as they are not deployed, combat squading can only happen when the unit is deployed, and it is a choice that is made at that time. So untill they come out of reserves they are a 10 man unit. However you are required to declaire weather or not a unit in reserves is embarked or not. And an embarked unit cannot combat squad because that would cause two units to be in a transport, which is against the rules. Drop pods have their own special rule that delays the choice to combat squad till after disembarking. Combat squads cannot exist in reserves, only when the squad comes out or reserves can they be combat squaded if aplicable. That is part of the versitility of combat squads, you can change you mind right up till you put them on the table, based on what you need that specific turn.

[Algesan]

Oh, I love this this stuff! Not. :ermm:

 

On pages 92 & 93 in the Standard Scenario rules on "Deploy Forces", in each of the boxes that cover the three engagement styles comes the sentence: "Start the game! Once deployment has finished, the player that chose his deployment zone first starts game Turn 1 with his first player turn."

 

Page 94: "When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve. Units in reserve will become available in later turns of the game."

 

"During deployment, when declaring which units are left in reserve, the player must clearly explain the organization of his reserves to the opponent."

 

The words "deployment" and "deployed" are used interchangeably for both a pre-game phase and for the physical act of placing models on the table during that pre-game phase. There there is the specific cases.

 

pg 94 Outflank

"Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport, but if they do so they must move onto the table embarked in it."

 

Ok, so potential combat squad units using outflank in a dedicated transport lose that special rule.

 

pg 95 Deep Strike

"Roll for arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy them as follows."

 

"Pick one model from the unit..."

 

Specifically says that this is a deploy move, which according to the SM codex cited above is when the decision to combat squad is made, resulting in a split into two units.

 

Ahhhh, I could still parse this both ways and it, like a couple of other discussions are trivial if ruling was clear.

 

However, in this case, I don't need to parse it anymore. While looking for the FAQ that clearly stated that the Codex rules for your army applied (which strengthens the case for allowing combat squadding at the moment of entry (or deployment) onto the board (except for outflankers!), I found something else. The "your army's Codex rules" is in the Dark Angel FAQ plus another little question and answer:

 

Q. Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad and then put a Combat squad in it, deploying the other Combat squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but not in the Drop Pod?

A. No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not break down into Combat squads.

 

Clear ruling on the issue from GW in a FAQ. This one is closed.

 

Now if they would just do the same for the combiweapons.

[thade]

There's nothing weird about this at all; pretty sure Frosty had the right of it at the get-go.

 

If we want to end up with the result that the OP wanted, we can approximate by doing this during deployment. Assume we have a ten man tac squad with a dedicated Rhino. When the tac squad comes out of reserves...

 

1. Declare the tac squad will be Combat-Squadded.

2. Declare which of the squads will be in the Dedicated Rhino (only one of them can ride in it, it's a separate unit now).

3. Deploy them via Outflank by rolling for each the mounted combat squad and the on-foot combat squad.

[Algesan]

There's nothing weird about this at all; pretty sure Frosty had the right of it at the get-go.

 

If we want to end up with the result that the OP wanted, we can approximate by doing this during deployment. Assume we have a ten man tac squad with a dedicated Rhino. When the tac squad comes out of reserves...

 

1. Declare the tac squad will be Combat-Squadded.

2. Declare which of the squads will be in the Dedicated Rhino (only one of them can ride in it, it's a separate unit now).

3. Deploy them via Outflank by rolling for each the mounted combat squad and the on-foot combat squad.

 

The RAW for Outflanking in a vehicle I cited would directly disallow splitting the unit in that specific case.

 

Given the FAQ ruling I noted above, I'd say no units can be altered by special rules, because you cannot declare combat squads in reserves, which means when you accurately describe your reserves to your opponent, you cannot describe them except as full squads.

 

IMO, a bit silly, but I could justify it easily enough (units in reserve are marching to the sound of the guns and don't have the time to set up that would allow splitting the units as they rush into the fight). I'd just allow you to "deploy" your reserves just as you would on the table as long as you met the accurate description for opponent criteria, but it works either way.

[SeattleDV8]

There's nothing weird about this at all; pretty sure Frosty had the right of it at the get-go.

 

If we want to end up with the result that the OP wanted, we can approximate by doing this during deployment. Assume we have a ten man tac squad with a dedicated Rhino. When the tac squad comes out of reserves...

 

1. Declare the tac squad will be Combat-Squadded.

2. Declare which of the squads will be in the Dedicated Rhino (only one of them can ride in it, it's a separate unit now).

3. Deploy them via Outflank by rolling for each the mounted combat squad and the on-foot combat squad.

That would not work, as the Rhino would have to be empty when placed in reserves or holding the entire squad.

If empty you would need a seperate reserve roll for the rhino and squad.

If you did get the roll you could deploy the rhino empty and combat squad the troops.

You then could have the combat squad embark in the movement phase.

 

Re-read Frosty's post as he has it nailed.