i hate Razorwolf spam....

[Grimtooth]

Is this what the meta game dictates is the best of the best of the Space Wolves?

 

Look, I have read all the articles, I have read tons of battle reports, and I have seen MSU in action countless times. I fail to see what is the huge tactical average is with these lists. Now unless I have been watching people completely doing it wrong, MSU sure seems to be swept a lot.

 

Long Fang missile launcher spam every turn is just dandy, however do not win games on their own. GH are the backbone of the SW but are completely useless at the prescribed 5man builds of Razorwolf. Tossing a WGPL to supplement them is not the scale tipping element so many want to think that it is. Boots on the ground win battles WITH superior coverfire, not depending on it to carry the battle.

 

I think my main problem is my personal battle doctrine of close support in lieu of small 5man sacrifice units of Razorwolf lists seem to promote. The idea of the 5 GH plus WGPL holding up or distracting a unit long enough to win a game. They are treated as throwaway units to win the meta game.

 

With the exception of my last game, my GH packs are relatively intact at the end of the game. That would be in two games against IG (1-0-1), Tyranids (2-0-1), SM Razorspam (1-0), and Eldar (0-0-1). Simply put, I use two packs to do the job that most only send one to do. What takes most players a full game turn or more I take care of in one player turn. This minimizes losses by overwhelming force and speeds up the tasks I set for my packs.

 

Now in contrast, Razorwolf lists will look to the Long Fangs to cover their individual advances to rush on objectives or take out an enemy unit. The increased MSU is meant to overwhelm an opponents ability to claim objectives. The Razorspam player then hopes for the game to end before his opponent can clear enough of the MSU to claim a draw or even win. Really? That is the tactic that your list relies on for the win?

 

Pathetic Razorwolf, just pathetic. Go turn in your weapons, we need a thrall-servitor to clean up after the Thunderwolves!

[Thunderhawk3015]

Honesty, I hate the idea of just using Razorbacks just because of how easy it is to open them up, then to kill off the squad inside. All the guns may be great, but once they get popped its over. 6 guys die fast to massed fire or a good assault from a larger squad.

 

IMO just another instance of why math hammer should have the disclaimer, "This is theory only, actual results may vary"

 

Law of averages is great, but darned if I have ever had a game where I see average dice rolls every turn.

 

Note for all the math hammer people, I respect what you do, but I don't think it should be taken as the gospel because when things go wrong with no safety net then its going to be a very bad day.

[Wildfire]

I'm curious where you get this proliferation of razorspam from. I hear a bit about it in the BA forum, but not so much here in the SW forum. Is it a local thing?

 

In general, SW mech MSU builds seem to give away too many kill points for me to get behind them. Which is not to say the MSU approach completely ineffective, just that I don't think mech lists do it all that well. Biker builds, on the other hand...

[DeepDarkSecret]

I like razor spam because it suits my style of play with SWs the Counter Attack. I run 6 kitted out 6 man razorback squads a unit of WG in a drop pod with a runepriest and a couple combi meltas and obviously some long fangs and there are three strats I use that I like 1) Sit back and light crap up to be ready for the counter attack which my list does really really really well. 2) Lay supporting fire while my GH's run in head first into the enemy lines while the droppod drops in where I need something dead (Usually behind a squadron of Russes or Griffons). 3) I do what you described above lay support fire and defend objectives. I love razorbacks and yeah they have a disadvantage of not having 10 guys in them but I get a big gun for 5 points and I run my GH's in 2's which is 12 guys that hit pretty damn hard...

[Grey Mage]

Im not particularly fond of razorback spamming in any list. I feel that its not making the best use of either unit....

 

But I dont understand, do the guys in your area do this?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

 

I think I need to clarify something, for my benefit at least :D

 

2x 10 Men < 4x 5 Men.

Both put out 20 Bolter shots. The 2x 10 can only kill two squads. The 4x 5 can kill four squads.

 

That is the separation between the strong few and the many weak.

 

Lets look at what 1 Templar Term squad of 5, versus 1x 15 Blood claws. On the charge 13.3 Claws are dead. If there was 3x 5 Claws, 8.3 attacks of the Terms would be wasted.

 

They do the same thing with ships after the Titanic. It was just one big compartment, iIrc. Since that disaster, they put sections in the ships so that the breached one could be isolated. Even if the ship sunk, it would take much longer for it to go down.

It doesn't matter if you'd sink after the game ends. It does matter that you last to the end in some way, shape or form.

 

MSU is not so you can cover 5 Objectives. If people are doing that, they are playing it with the wrong way of thinking, unless they know something I don't....

 

MSU is so you can bash your foe more competantly, then go grab the Objectives. 5th ed is not "all about TROOPS"^TM. You only need to grab one more than your foe, and contest his.

 

Play like normal. Send 20 men to do a 20 men job. It's just that those 20 men are 1x10 + 2x 5 instead of 2x10, for example. You don't have to go all small squads if some big ones are intrinsic to your plan.

 

As we all have ATSKNF, we don't have to worry about wee squads below 50%

 

But of course, no matter how you manipulate something, you will always end up with a weakness, even if you change 50-50 strength-weakness to 60-40, you still have 40% weakness that you foe can start unravelling you with.

It is up to the general to marshal and guide his forces successfully.

 

Just because you have a better list [whatever it is], doesn't mean you'll win if you are a] not very competent or b] not familiar with it's style.

[Godhead]

I like razorbacks. They help my army play the way I want.. Versatile. I also don't do the GH spam either. In my 2k lists I run 3 troops. It used to be 2 in razorbacks and then a rhino. Now days it's 2 rhino squads and a razorback. If I can fit it in I'll add in the second razorback. I personally like running a rhino and razor in combination.

 

I will say this about the MSU though, a pack leader with a fist, motw, and a standard makes those guys hit like a freaking truck. There has been quite a few occasions where my 6 man squad gets charged by a significantly larger squad and that larger squad finds itself having lost combat. Typically I can get someone else over there to back them up after the 1st round. So it seems my experience with the small squads seems to be the opposite of yours as mine tend to be a good bit hardier than I initially expected.

 

The other thing is, I've found that if you give your opponent something else to shoot at, then those razorbacks tend to stick around a whole lot longer. I really like the las/plas because it helps add in a bit more ap2 fire to my list. I tend to run melta and missiles so the lascannon is really nice addition because it hits a bit harder than the missile which can help vs av13.

 

All in all though, I don't think razorspam is the end all be all for a SW list. I do pretty darn well with my hero hammer :D, and besides razors are only av11. They get popped pretty easily. Terrain, cover, and use of the rest of the list really makes a difference as to the effectiveness of any unit, so maybe that's the problem you are seeing.

[Lord Howland Greywolf]

It's why I stopped playing space wolves. Yes I know I am one at heart but now I see meta players playing space wolves and it feels...wrong. Wolves have always been an army that appiled to the spirituality of the player (yes really) not the meta game.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I wouldn't say I spammed Ravorbacks, I just give one (lascannon+twinlinked plas) to one of my Long fang packs, the time I did experiment with grey hunters in there it didn't work (the one time the grey hunters got out, all but one and the wolf guard got shot to death) but the Razorback still did well, it immobilised a Baal predator (with the ap3 flamers, can't remember the name) that was heading for my long fangs. I have thought of getting more lasplas ravor backs , though (the squad can still buy the ravorback even if it is 10 plus a wolf guard, it just can't ride in it) since I have come to think of them as the main Space wolf Battle tank. (and go well with land speeders)

[Niiai]

Look it is realy simple. For 155 you get 5 grey hunters, a melta and an upgraded razor back.

 

Do this 6 times for 930, then get 6 wolf guards with combi meltas, and the 7th one gets a cyclone rocket launcher that goes with the rocket longs fangs.

 

The point is that you can spam so mutch mech that it is hard to get enough anti tank against it.

[Thunderhawk3015]

Tell that to the puppy I rolled over who tried that Niiai.

 

You can try and preach the values of how "effective" that list is, but in the end a Razorback is a tin can that can get opened by a well placed heavy bolter shot.

 

Massed tanks works with AV13/14 not with AV11 getting immobilized/weapons blown off by Heavy Bolters.

[Niiai]

How on earth did you get the heavy bolter behind his tank? Eather you are very good, or moast likley he did not know what he was doing.

 

I do not think it might be so hard on the space wolves, but I mett it with tyranids once, and it was to mutch mech. It functions like a gunnline, so I think a IG leafblower list just might do it better.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

To me, razorback "spam" is a LOT of them. Not say, 4 or less. There are perfectly good armies utilizing a few razors. I just think it is cheesy and lame if you go like that Stelek (?) fellow and get 12 of them (6 troop units, 3 WG, 3 LF).

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

It's why I stopped playing space wolves. Yes I know I am one at heart but now I see meta players playing space wolves and it feels...wrong. Wolves have always been an army that appiled to the spirituality of the player (yes really) not the meta game.

 

You stopped playing wolves because other people spammed razors? Why don't you, oh I don't know, build your own different kind of SW list? You've given the flimsiest excuse I have ever seen here.

[Blarmb]

Until you hit the troops cap, the trade offs for Razorbacks are at worst even and often favorable. The price difference between a Razorback with a Turret Option and a Rhino is 40 points. Since until you hit 6 Troops choices you can get more bodies by putting filling out more slots, this means you're generally losing just under 3 bodies and not 4 to the Razorback.

 

3 Bodies/40 Points isn't a bad deal for what you get: Twin-Linked Lascannon or Twin-Linked Assault Cannon or Twin-Linked Plasma Gun + A Lascannon.

 

In addition the smaller squad sizes are in some way advantageous.

 

The first being that a single enemy unit can at beast destroy slow/stop/kill one unit with shooting. That is each volley against a Rhino potentially stops 185(Before Options) of stuff. Each volley against a Razorback potentially stops 150(Before Options) points of stuff. This even applies after they're out of the transport but less so (as most things that aren't blasts won't be killing more than 5 marines in a single volley).

 

Some disadvantages of small squads, such as being weaker in assault are relatively easy to alleviate. You just need to move the two units together and mix them up when you want them to sit somewhere. The enemy will all but be forced to multi-assault. This means that you're still only facing the 3 Body/Razorback loss. You'll be forced to check morale more often but since Razorback Squads tend to bring along WGBLs, this is alleviated somewhat.

 

It also buys you independent fire power. The heavy weapon on the Razorback can move and fire on it's own target, if the squad doesn't need to be embarked. 3 More Grey Hunters would have to shoot at the same thing as all their other friends no matter what.

[Niiai]

Blarm, as far as I can see the razorback list is about tacking out your oponents anti tank units so that he is stuck with no good, or very few good ways to get rid of the mech.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Until you hit the troops cap, the trade offs for Razorbacks are at worst even and often favorable.

 

Oh I don't disagree with you here. I still think 6 razors could reasonably be called 'spam.' Not that that is a bad thing really. The list may work fine, but to me it would be too boring and cookie cutter to play. The guy who advocates the 12 razor list though should hit in the face with a cream pie. That's just too extreme in a bad way.

 

Still find it odd that a person can "hate" a list like that, or even worse, stop playing Space Wolves because some SW players use a spam list. I mean, did I miss something? No one is stopping them from making big squads, using thunderwolves, going 'Herohammer' etc;

[the jeske]

The Razorspam player then hopes for the game to end before his opponent can clear enough of the MSU to claim a draw or even win

you do not understand how a razor spam or SW razor spam works. the razor list plays a lot like an IG list only better in hth [specialy sw who more or less have the same number of attacks a normal tac has ] and more resilient .

and if you say that LF do not win games for SW then again I think you do not know much about how the razor build works. faster enemy disembark means more hits slaming in to troops which means fewer of them get in to hth and if the list is shoty it means cleaning objectives from whole units [unless I dont know you take a single unit of LF and a single razorback , but then it is a case of bad list] .

[Blarmb]

Blarm, as far as I can see the razorback list is about tacking out your oponents anti tank units so that he is stuck with no good, or very few good ways to get rid of the mech.

 

Well, that is.. partially true. Any list that focuses on having a high level of redundancy among a certain unit class is doing something similar. You put in enough of any one element and you (Potentially) overwhelm your opponent's abilities to deal with that element. The reason you might do this with Razorbacks over anything else has to do with what exactly razorbacks bring to the table compared to other options, which I attempted to outline.

 

I'm a fan of the unit, though I can't say I've ever "Spammed" it really. Though that's due to the size of the games I play, people in my group have small armies so most games are in the 1000-1200 band. Which generally sees me taking 3-4 Razorbacks.

[Karack Blackstone]

In my area, there's way too much heavy Anti-Tank to make useful deployment of any number of Razorbacks, let alone as many as possible.

 

It is mostly a game of back and forth between lists, and without enough heavy armor on our side, our lighter transports make inviting targets.

 

In my experience there's no reason to take so many Razorbacks that there's no core of Grey Hunters that can handle taking an objective. Sure, send more, but even then, you're overreacting a bit since it takes say two troops slots (transports being dedicated) to take an objective from one.

 

In all, I figure that Razorback spam lists aren't very Russ-y. So I try not to play them. I'll buy some in my list for Long Fangs, as that seems to fit, but sticking GH's in them? Not my style, not after seeing them get dropped like hot potatoes in a tourney after their transport was popped.

 

One good meltagun shot and most units in a Razorback go footslogging really quick.

[Zeller]

If I may clarify on Titanic. Its design comprised of numerous bulkheads that would seal off parts of the ship that were being flooded. The problem with the system was that once the doors were shut the water could still spill over the top of the door into the adjacent compartment and so on and so forth. So in effect I suppose it acted like one very large compartment but in thoery it was supposed to be numerous isolated compartments. I believe ships after the event were designed so water could not spill over the bulkhead. :woot:

 

I get the effectiveness of the razorspam regardless of the codex it comes from but it is aggravating to see every marine player using razorbacks instead of rhinos. Razorbacks are supposed to add firesupport to rhino groups not form squadrons of them. Also, couldn't the TDA squad simply split its attacks, as ineffectual as this may be, and take down a fair few of the bloodclaws in each of the three squads? Four attacks per terminator. Split it 1, 2, and 2 and there should be only one small half squad left at best. Throw in a TDA chaplain and you have 2 termies attacking each 5 man squad throwing all those reroll hit/wound powerweapon attacks around.

[little brother]

Sorry for what may well be a stupid question but what are MSU and WGPL?

[Blarmb]

Sorry for what may well be a stupid question but what are MSU and WGPL?

 

MSU: Multiple Small Units - When you take a small (often minimum size possible) for a given slot in the army and fill as many slots as possible. The advantage is that generally speaking one unit can only shoot at one unit. This limits the ability of the enemy to focus on an destroy particular threats.

 

WGPL: Wolf Guard Pack Leader - Members of a unit of Wolf Guard that been made part of another unit, as per the space wolf codex.

[Sven Bloodskull]

I rofl'ed when i read this thread, mostly because i had just orderd a razorwolf list :D I can see why might find them to be boring, but i myself find them be alot of fun because of the amount of firepower! After playing CC armies for the last 2 years or so, going with a list that shoots the crap out of your opponnent is a very nice change of pace. That, and the #1 guy at my LGS actually fears this list :)

 

Sven Bloodskull

[Brother_Cowboy]

you do not understand how a razor spam or SW razor spam works. the razor list plays a lot like an IG list only better in hth [specialy sw who more or less have the same number of attacks a normal tac has ] and more resilient .

 

Why on earth would you want your 6 man GH squad to get into hand to hand with anything? And since when do GH's get 'more or less' the same attacks as a Tac squad (why is the tac squad in close combat?), either on the charge or when being charge. I'm pretty sure they get one more, and one more is often then not a big deal.

 

I lol'ed too when I read this thread because it amounts to "Your idea's are not what my idea's are and you are a worse player because of it"

 

That and the counter to Razorspam is "I throw twenty grey hunters at it until I win"

 

I think you missed the part where the Razorback packing player can direct his application of force better then you can with the grey hunters. Overwhelming force is all well and good, but versatility will trump it nine times out of ten. Its my sword to your war-hammer. Both do sort of the same thing, but they go about it in different ways.

 

Also, can we not run razorbacks alongside two squads of ten-ish grey hunters? Do we really need three squads of long fangs? And since when was MSU the be-all-end-all space marine list, let alone the number one choice for your average marine player? And why is it aggravating to see marine players use something thats readily avalible to them in their codex

 

Either way, I think Chamillionaire sums this thread up pretty well when he said-

They see me rolling, they hating.