i hate Razorwolf spam....

[40k Junkie]

Ok- I play razorwolves- almost all the time. They suit my style of play to a tee. I love them.

 

Here is my list @ 1850: Cringe away

Rune Priest in Power Armour (Storm Caller; Tempest's Wrath)

Wolf Guard Pack (3 WG Razorback w/ Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Wolf Guard Pack (1 Base WG, 2 WG w/ Combi-Melta; Razorback w/ Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

(x4) Grey Hunters Pack (Flamer; Razorback w/ Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

(x2) Grey Hunters Pack (Meltagun; Razorback w/ Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

(x3) Long Fangs Pack (Missile Launcher x4; Razorback w/ Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

 

The WG go into the Grey Hunters or the Long Fangs, except the 2 Meltas join the other meltas.

So thats 11 Razorbacks (5 empty), max troops, 12 Missle shots.

 

You should not have issue with razor spam unless you are competing in tournaments. Razorwolves are a tournament list, not something fun to knock around with the boys. I have scaled it to various levels and it works. I took it to 'ard boyz and lost the top seed due to the crappy 3rd mission rules. The list works, unless your dice fail you. It is meant to send an initial salvo that forces your opponent to audible their game plan.

 

Would you rather I play my Thunder wolf cav list? :P

[Skalver]

A lot of people just feel that playing the same list over and over or a list that stacks the same unit over and over is kinda dull and I think they are right. What is galling is that there are so many players who think it is better to be boring and win than to have fun and lose.

 

The problem is that highly competitive lists tend to dictate the type of game you have, two fun lists = a fun game, two competitive lists = a competitive game, one fun list vs one competitive list = a crappy game that the competitive list wins.

 

So overly competitive play is viral. Once someone in a gaming group starts playing that way then one by one everyone else ends up having to play that way since if you won't get to have fun anyway you may as well play to win. Eventually everyone ends up playing in a way that has been dictated by a small few and the fun is removed from the game for a lot of people who preferred a game where you bring a different list every week, your opponent does the same and you both try to figure out how to deal with whatever else has been thrown against you.

 

Throw into that that the internet has killed creativity. Within two days of a codex being released every possible boring spammy wanna be power list imaginable has been posted somewhere by some moron who posts 50 lists the first day just so that when one of them turns out to work he can claim he called it first. This removes all the fun of experimentation. The guy who has plays two units in razorbacks for years now gets a sulky "you only won because you use an internet power list" if he wins no matter how badly his opponent plays. Space Wolf players are utterly screwed because pretty much every unit in the dex is part of some power list spam. Unless you want to build a list based entirely around Dreadnoughts, Blood Claws and Whirlwinds someone somewhere will accuse you of being cheesy.

 

Now someone is going to make a post saying being competitive is fun to them or that spamming the same unit many times is fun to them and even though they know exactly the point I am making they will argue it anyway since they are boring competitive people and thats how they work.

[Wysten]

A lot of people just feel that playing the same list over and over or a list that stacks the same unit over and over is kinda dull and I think they are right. What is galling is that there are so many players who think it is better to be boring and win than to have fun and lose.

 

The problem is that highly competitive lists tend to dictate the type of game you have, two fun lists = a fun game, two competitive lists = a competitive game, one fun list vs one competitive list = a crappy game that the competitive list wins.

 

So overly competitive play is viral. Once someone in a gaming group starts playing that way then one by one everyone else ends up having to play that way since if you won't get to have fun anyway you may as well play to win. Eventually everyone ends up playing in a way that has been dictated by a small few and the fun is removed from the game for a lot of people who preferred a game where you bring a different list every week, your opponent does the same and you both try to figure out how to deal with whatever else has been thrown against you..

 

Now someone is going to make a post saying being competitive is fun to them or that spamming the same unit many times is fun to them and even though they know exactly the point I am making they will argue it anyway since they are boring competitive people and thats how they work.

 

Competive play is rarely boring though, since it often comes down to how well you know your own army, and how well you know their army. The most flexiable army, skilled tactican and luckiest dice wins. There is definate appeals that are harder to come across in causal play, in the same way that there is definate appeal in causal play(Units not normally seen rising up).

 

That being said, I don't really know why it's not possible to do both. Like Eldar, some people seem to be wired to be aspects in one path or the other. Clubbing baby seals for example, is very boring to me and I rarely play other people in my other hobby with my deck as it's purely competive. Often borrowing other peoples decks to even the stakes or use a less competive deck. Hence the lack of adaptablity to not bring a shotgun to a fight club seems a bit stuborn based.

 

 

Just as said, the orignal writer wondered why razorwolf is used, the answer has been given. Tons of Razorback allows a huge amount of ranged firepower spread throughout the unit and that two 5 man squads is better then one 10 man squad, simply because they have the flexiablity to be either a 10 man or a 5 man depending on what the situation calls for. After all, if you send 2 squads in, it's more or less the same thing as a single large one.

[Thunderhawk3015]

How on earth did you get the heavy bolter behind his tank? Eather you are very good, or moast likley he did not know what he was doing.

 

I didn't, opening up a transport does not mean destroying it, it means forcing its cargo to walk.

 

With S5 you need 6's to glance on front armor. 5 Heavy Bolters, one Assault Cannon, Split fire. That many dice your usually going to get what you need to stop/declaw and with the Assault cannon you can get penetrating hits, next turn, that squad that is stuck in there is either legging it across or they stay put while the long fangs move on to the next 2 victims. Even with a poor round of shooting the odds of at least stopping one tank are good and that is what tooled up Grey Hunter packs in Rhinos are for. Plasma Guns make decent light tank killers and with 10 guys even having to run after you lose the tin can the unit can take more casualties before they start to lose special weapons/WGPL. Using cover, and going second all help here even with the chance of losing some guys out the gate, you can deploy to counter your opponent, and even if you end up deploying first, by concentrating your forces on one side of the table then you are now limiting your opponents options for what he can do because if he spreads out, you can pick him apart, or he can clump up, but that will leave some of his tanks sitting in spots where they will get munched on by heavy weapons.

[Brother_Cowboy]

one fun list vs one competitive list = a crappy game that the competitive list wins.

 

When has this ever been the case, and why does a list being 'fun' suddenly make it non-competitive? Is it not enough to enjoy watching your pure thousand sons list hold its own against a blood rodeo list and lose to a single kill point, or go up against a vanilla msu and win by one objective?

 

A lists effectiveness is due half to the armies setup and half to the guy playing them. Just because you have an ultra-competitive list doesn't mean you're going to win. And it sure as hell doesn't mean you're going to have a drab, boring game.

 

Space Wolf players are utterly screwed because pretty much every unit in the dex is part of some power list spam. Unless you want to build a list based entirely around Dreadnoughts, Blood Claws and Whirlwinds someone somewhere will accuse you of being cheesy.

 

And the same can't be said for every other codex out there? I fail to see how this a Space wolf specific problem, as I've seen more then my share of competitive guard lists, Blood angels lists, Vanilla lists and every other type of list scattered across the blog rolls and forums that are out there.

 

This thread highlights the lingering problem that persists in the hobby. The problem being that everyone plays their own way, and that some people can't accept that. Some people love to go out there with the strongest list possible and clean up at a comp', others like to put down a well painted and themed army and watch it fight against another well themed and painted army, some people just like to convert and paint. Does it mean the ultra-competitive guy is bad? or that the themed army player is a "scrub"? No. It just means they are enjoying their hobby the way they want to.

 

And here's a tip if someone rolls up to your gaming club with a list intended for high-end comp play. Dont play them. If they ask why, just say its not why you play 40k. But do be civil, he's just trying to enjoy his hobby, just like you.

[jmurph]

Meh, I like plenty of shooty in my wolves, but leaning too heavy on RBs is also a good way to give easy KPs. RBs are both the lists strength and weakness.

 

Things like Chimeras are actually better to the front and the S6 multishots is quite dangerous. Vendettas make mech cry and melta and plasma vets are tremendously dangerous both to the transports and small squads. Likewise, max'd ML LF squads shut down light vehicles quick and are hard to shoot out of cover. The small GH packs with lots of upgrades are also at real risk if their metal bawkses pop.

 

Basically, massed RBs is an alpha strike list- it is relying on taking out threats before the can pop AV 11. Foot with lots of firepower (LFs, Lootas, etc) can put a real damper on this. Additionally, high AV targets (Russes, Land Raiders) can be tough targets with only single lascannons, even if you have 6 with LOS, you are looking at 4 hits needing 5s to glance. Not great, esp. if they have cover. And things like vendettas and baal tanks can move on and just start eating AV 11. If they can then put templates or plasma on the small squads, it gets ugly fast. If they are sniping KPs, they will just hunt the transports then play keepaway as that strips the army of firepower and mobility while earning KP. Things like TWC or daemons hiding then popping out to assault 2nd turn are very scary for lists like this.

 

Dark Eldar are going to be a resurgent threat to RB spam lists. S8 dark lances should be good to deal with the RBs and wyches rushing into combat have enough attacks at I5 that small squads will reel. A full squad getting in, for example, gets about 30 attacks at I5 plus 10 pistol shots (which may drag one down). That's 7-8 wounds which is 2-3 dead (or 1/3 to half the squad!) and with wound allocation, a risk of losing the MOW, etc. A double charge would probably wipe the squad, whereas a ten man squad could survive it. Zoomy bikes and scourges can easily pop razors as well.

[Thunderhawk3015]

Having played a couple games against the new DE I will say this much, unless its a 10 man squad don't expect it to last. Their armor is easy to kill, actually its a pain to kill between the invuln saves and the face that there are weapons in there that can force wounds onto specific models in a squad shooting.

[Tsavong Lah]

My problem with small squads of Grey Hunters has always been that you have to give up the Wolf Standard, which I think is possibly the best ten points you'll ever spend.

[Autarch-Andrew]

I like razorspam I might even say I love it

[Frost Axe]

This thread highlights the lingering problem that persists in the hobby. The problem being that everyone plays their own way, and that some people can't accept that. Some people love to go out there with the strongest list possible and clean up at a comp', others like to put down a well painted and themed army and watch it fight against another well themed and painted army, some people just like to convert and paint. Does it mean the ultra-competitive guy is bad? or that the themed army player is a "scrub"? No. It just means they are enjoying their hobby the way they want to.

 

Too right mate. I couldn't care less what kind of army someone uses as long as it's legal. Everyone has their own way of playing. If you don't want to play against someone with a Razorwolf army, say no when they ask you. Personally, I enjoy playing all kinds of armies, against all kinds of armies. There is always something new to learn.

 

Here's a good "broken" army as used by a guy at my local GW. Planetstrike, Attacker. Wolf Lord, 6 Lone Wolves, all tooled up like crazy (Termie Armour, Claws, Hammers, Fists, Saga of the Bear, you name it). 750pts & as far as I know has never been beaten, even by 1000pt armies. It's CRAZY but a lot of fun to play against.

 

To sum up, just play your way and enjoy the hobby. Don't feel you have to copy anyone.

[slmellon]

one fun list vs one competitive list = a crappy game that the competitive list wins.

 

When has this ever been the case, and why does a list being 'fun' suddenly make it non-competitive? Is it not enough to enjoy watching your pure thousand sons list hold its own against a blood rodeo list and lose to a single kill point, or go up against a vanilla msu and win by one objective?

 

A lists effectiveness is due half to the armies setup and half to the guy playing them. Just because you have an ultra-competitive list doesn't mean you're going to win. And it sure as hell doesn't mean you're going to have a drab, boring game.

 

 

I would have to disagree, I game with guys who always bring competitive lists and I never bring the same list twice, and getting tabled sucks. I am a fluff player, wolves dont sit back and wait, they attack. Doesnt work to good against leaf blower, or the two Eldrad players who wait for your set up and move half the damn army.

 

I try to enjoy every beating because I still believe in the fact that maybe someday I will roll well and do better, (where can I get loaded dice?), I figure losing to the best gamers will make me a better gamer.

I know winning isnt everything, but like people have said here once the competitive lists start they dont normally stop. And when you play like I play sometimes its like whats the point. Let's go to the game store and lose today!

 

I dont like SPAM but I dont hate it. If you are using it just to come in and massacre people, maybe you should leave that stuff home and only bring it out a few weeks before a tournament to knock the rust off, but try some variety the other times. Losing is ok people (Unless maybe you are a Brazillian soccer player or something)

[WG Vrox]

Boring list, boring tactics.

 

Turn 1, move 6" fire all weapons within reach. take off a RB or two and a few generic grey hunters that's ok got lots more

Turn 2, move 6" fire all weapons within reach. take off a RB or two and a few generic grey hunters, maybe even a generic WG

Turn 3, move 6" fire all weapons within reach. take off a RB and a few generic grey hunters, maybe even a generic WG and maybe even a Long Fang.

Turn 4, move 6" and possibly some units will move 12" then fire all weapons within reach. take off a few generic grey hunters, maybe even a generic WG as they don't have anything left that can kill a RB

Turn 5, move onto an objective and yes let's just for a change of pace......Fire all weapons within reach, maybe even an assault or two if your feeling froggy. take off a few generic GH oh no you lost a special weapon unit.

Turn 6, sit in one spot and FIRE ALL WEAPONS within reach. win.

 

Fun fun fun.

 

Next time your thinking about getting a game, save yourself a few hours and re read my post about as exciting.

 

But to each their own and so on and so forth.

Vrox.

[Grimtooth]

Boring list, boring tactics.

 

Turn 1, move 6" fire all weapons within reach. take off a RB or two and a few generic grey hunters that's ok got lots more

Turn 2, move 6" fire all weapons within reach. take off a RB or two and a few generic grey hunters, maybe even a generic WG

Turn 3, move 6" fire all weapons within reach. take off a RB and a few generic grey hunters, maybe even a generic WG and maybe even a Long Fang.

Turn 4, move 6" and possibly some units will move 12" then fire all weapons within reach. take off a few generic grey hunters, maybe even a generic WG as they don't have anything left that can kill a RB

Turn 5, move onto an objective and yes let's just for a change of pace......Fire all weapons within reach, maybe even an assault or two if your feeling froggy. take off a few generic GH oh no you lost a special weapon unit.

Turn 6, sit in one spot and FIRE ALL WEAPONS within reach. win.

 

Fun fun fun.

 

Next time your thinking about getting a game, save yourself a few hours and re read my post about as exciting.

 

But to each their own and so on and so forth.

Vrox.

 

Good summary.

 

And here is the gist, that summary is pretty much based on an opponent not doing anything in return, but trying to match returning fire power. Turbo-boosting bikes? Running TWC? Running Sky Claws? Any combination of those with Rhino mounted GH packs is going to flank and then just fold a Razorwolf deployment.

 

Here is what I think about any Razor spam list, not just Razorwolf:

 

Someone at some point brought a Razor spam list to a tournament. He had success with it, not because it was actually any good, but because it was unexpected. This idea as then spread across the intrawebz and put into play across the gaming world with success. Again, not because it is such a great tactic, but because it was not expected.

 

Other then the excellent summary by Vrox, and my point that MSU on objectives are playing the attrition game (last long enough to win the game), really what really makes it a competitive list? Any competent player imo is going to counter your waiting game. Your comp scores are going to get jacked. And more then likely your sportsmanship score is going to get jacked (not for you personally, but people see a spam list and associated it with the player). So you are left with your painting score?

[Wysten]

Theres always winning addicts though, present in all hobbies, not just 40K. Thats a kind of problem that would have to be dealt with on a personal level. Though to be fair, one needs to practice a lot on the competative level.

 

I am fairly competive minded, but even I know when to chill for a bit.

[Macharim]

Winning isn't everything but it sure is fun to win once in a while right? Bringing a competitive list and trying your best to win doesn't make you a bad person, it makes you someone who wants to do their best. Now, always bringing your super competitive spam list to play against your friends isn't all that fun but neither is always bringing your "fluffy" list. Both choices forces your opponent to play to your level or you won't have a fun game.

 

If you don't like your opponents armies just tell him and try to reach a compromise.

 

As for Razorspam and MSU that's a discussion that will go on but tournament scores paint a pretty clear picture. MSU is stronger than big units and Razorspam allows you to focus fire better than any other list SW can field. And for those thinking MSU is just attrition play you need to try it a few games. MSU and Razorspam is actually at its worst in attrition games. Razorbacks are kinda squishy and your units can't soak mass casualties. It has much more to do with focusing your force and breaking the back of your opponents forces before he flanks/overruns you and starts grinding you down.

[Wysten]

Hmm? Never said there was anything wrong with being competive, but bringing a shotgun to a knife fight, every day seems a tad unreasonable. Then again I'm used to dealing with some of those in my other hobby, so I am largely used to it.

[Grey Mage]

I would have to disagree, I game with guys who always bring competitive lists and I never bring the same list twice, and getting tabled sucks.

I suppose Im a bit odd- I consider myself a competitive gamer, I like to win. On the other hand, I rarely repeat a list, and while I do have a few basic unit setups- my GH packs are all dual special weapon if in a transport, etc- I dont spam anything to to the max.

 

I dont see the appeal of a razorspam list. Youve got alot of AV 11 that cant shoot at any kind of speed coupled with guys who need to get closer to the enemy than their fragile transport. The best Ive ever seen them do is stunlock an army and hope for a lucky roll or three to take out enemy tanks.

 

Wich does all of jack and squat against a drop pod list, shrike-alpha-strike, and mass infiltration tyranids of doom. It does even less against IG infantry masses most of the time.... and Orks are just happy you didnt bring a Landraider.

 

Perhaps Ive just not seen it in the hands of someone whos mastered the concept, but frankly the idea of fielding as many expensive fragile half filled transports as I possibly can seems dumb. Sure, its cheaper than a Predator, but what isnt these days? A couple Typhoon squadrons and some drop pods will rip most of these lists apart in three turns. Atleast, I can say in the three games Ive played against them *two C:SM one C:BA* thats what happened- one tabling, two combat ineffective by the end of turn 3.

 

Winning isn't everything but it sure is fun to win once in a while right? Bringing a competitive list and trying your best to win doesn't make you a bad person, it makes you someone who wants to do their best. Now, always bringing your super competitive spam list to play against your friends isn't all that fun but neither is always bringing your "fluffy" list. Both choices forces your opponent to play to your level or you won't have a fun game.

 

If you don't like your opponents armies just tell him and try to reach a compromise.

 

As for Razorspam and MSU that's a discussion that will go on but tournament scores paint a pretty clear picture. MSU is stronger than big units and Razorspam allows you to focus fire better than any other list SW can field. And for those thinking MSU is just attrition play you need to try it a few games. MSU and Razorspam is actually at its worst in attrition games. Razorbacks are kinda squishy and your units can't soak mass casualties. It has much more to do with focusing your force and breaking the back of your opponents forces before he flanks/overruns you and starts grinding you down.

 

Thing is all armies, not just those that spam razorbacks, should be focusing fire and breaking your opponents key elements before he can use them against your weaknesses.

 

Frankly though, I have to admit- of the three modern marine codices Id say SWs can probly pull off razorback spam the best- our smaller squads can still take useful upgrades, and have good ranged and CC abilities.... in this case we truely did get the best of C:BA and C:SM.