A Word Bearers question...

[Lord Kallozar]

Hey all,

 

This may have been done before but im wanting to know why the Word Bearers seem to have no record of Daemon Princes (apart from Lorgar ofcourse)?

Is Daemonic Ascension harder to achieve if your a WB? or do the WB's reject the offer of Daemonhood for some reason!?

 

Also (in game terms now) ive noted that many players argue whether or not DP's are fluffy in a WB force, why is this?

 

Cheers.

[Brother Ambroz]

Well it has been said before that word bearers seem to have some of the most stable geneseed out of all astartes so that may hinder daemonic acension.

[Legatus]

Well it has been said before that word bearers seem to have some of the most stable geneseed out of all astartes

Whoever had said that had obviously never read their Index Astartes article. So I can only assume that one of the Word Bearers novels makes that claim, even though that is contrary to their description in the Index Astartes.

 

 

This may have been done before but im wanting to know why the Word Bearers seem to have no record of Daemon Princes (apart from Lorgar ofcourse)?

Perhaps part of that is that the Word Bearers have not much records at all. But another reason might be that they have a characteristic "non-daemonic" officier type in their Apostles. So when writing about the Black Legion or the Night Lords, who do not have such particular iconic officier types, a Daemon Prince is an easy fit, while for a Word Bearers story the author will more likely be tempted to have a Dark Apostle as their leader.

If you want to anchor that in the fluff, perhaps their patrons recognise that a mortal is more usefull in spreading the word and converting others than a huling daemonic monster would be.

 

 

Also (in game terms now) ive noted that many players argue whether or not DP's are fluffy in a WB force, why is this?

No idea. Apart from the four Cult Legions, the Word Bearers are the mots likely Legion whose personell would be granted daemonhood, even over the Black Legion, as the Black Legion are still often using Chaos for their own means, while the Word Bearers are truly devoted. A reason might be that a Dark Apostle is more expected as a leader for them, as mentioned above. But a Word Bearers officier has a higher chance of being granted daemonhood than a NL, IW or AL, and even a BL.

[The Prophet]

Well it has been said before that word bearers seem to have some of the most stable geneseed out of all astartes so that may hinder daemonic acension.

 

 

What's been said is that word bearers recieve more gifts from the gods than what is usual, due to their faithful behaviour. Would not possession, mutation and ascension to daemonhood seem even more likely then?

[Brother Ambroz]

Technically just being a Psyker counts you as a mutant so all Psykers would be mutated. And pre-Rubric the Thousand Sons were almost wiped out because of rampant mutation within the Legion.

 

The Black Legion is pretty rife with mutation as the large-scale possession that was conducted after the Heresy destabilized their gene-seed alot, resulting in more mutations from the very geneseed as well as mutations received as gifts.

 

According to their IAs the Night Lords and Word Bearers actually have the most stable gene-seed of them all, some would argue even more stable and pure than most loyal Legions(!), with actual mutation being very rare considering being in the Warp all the time.

 

TDA

 

Refer to this thread it's been discussed before.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=212000

[Legatus]

Mutations and daemonhood are not exactly the same thing, though.

 

And the remark about the Word bearers having one of the most stable gene-seed was as wrong back in that thread as it is now.

[Brother Ambroz]

Which IA article was this from out of curiosity? Mutations are usually the beginning of favoritism which eventually leads to daemonic acension, so while not directly related they are somewhat relavent. In most of the books though they don't seem to have many mutations, although I don't remember if Marduk had mutations his Icon Bearer was fairly mutated being possessed and all.

[Legatus]

The Word Bearers Index Astartes, naturally.

 

"Gene-seed

The gene-seed of the Word Bearers was originally thought to be pure, but events subsequent to the Horus Heresy revealed the weaknesses inherent in their genetic make-up. The Space Marines of the Word Bearers have a marked tendency towards dogged, unquestioning belief and stubbornness that verges on insanity. Since the Heresy, their gene-seed has become corrupted beyond redemption and those negative traits have been magnified to hideous proportions. The Word bearers do not display a particular tendency towards mutation, though those who are gifted with such blessings of Chaos are much favoured amongst their Host."

[Brother Ambroz]

Well in a way we're both right there then. Their corrupted geneseed doesn't tend toward mutation but their geneseed does tend to make them pretty insane.

[Legatus]

They do not have more mutations than the other Legions, is what I am reading.

[Lord Kallozar]

perhaps their patrons recognise that a mortal is more usefull in spreading the word and converting others than a huling daemonic monster would be.

But surely though, wouldnt it be more useful actually having a Daemon Prince to spread the word and not a mere mortal? I mean, the promise of how great the Dark Gods are and the gifts and glory they bring can be much more believable coming from a being who has actually been granted these things rather than a mortal who doesnt show what he promises, so to speak?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

perhaps their patrons recognise that a mortal is more usefull in spreading the word and converting others than a huling daemonic monster would be.

But surely though, wouldnt it be more useful actually having a Daemon Prince to spread the word and not a mere mortal? I mean, the promise of how great the Dark Gods are and the gifts and glory they bring can be much more believable coming from a being who has actually been granted these things rather than a mortal who doesnt show what he promises, so to speak?

 

From what I've gathered, the only Daemon Prince the Word Bearers seem to have is Lorgar himself. Everyone else seems to be a Dark Apostle. Maybe there's something religious that makes them hesitant to attain daemonhood themselves, preferring possession as a closer connection to the Warp instead.

[Skirax]

perhaps their patrons recognise that a mortal is more usefull in spreading the word and converting others than a huling daemonic monster would be.

But surely though, wouldnt it be more useful actually having a Daemon Prince to spread the word and not a mere mortal? I mean, the promise of how great the Dark Gods are and the gifts and glory they bring can be much more believable coming from a being who has actually been granted these things rather than a mortal who doesnt show what he promises, so to speak?

 

From what I've gathered, the only Daemon Prince the Word Bearers seem to have is Lorgar himself. Everyone else seems to be a Dark Apostle. Maybe there's something religious that makes them hesitant to attain daemonhood themselves, preferring possession as a closer connection to the Warp instead.

From what I've gathered, Kor Phaeron is also a Daemon Prince.

 

And about the whole 'DP's being better at converting people', that's not true; it's like a Political War (which, in some ways, it is) and the DA's the representatives sent to a council to assure their loyalty in the election (this is just an example, not a real-life case) while the DP is the speaker at a Part Rally. The difference being, one gathers followers, the other reassures them that they made the right decision.

[Lay]

I don't recall any fluff saying that the Word Bearers have few to no Daemon Princes.

 

There are some DPs in the fluff: there is Kor Megron, featured in an article on the GW website and M'Kar who I think is revealed to have been a Word Bearer in the latest Ultramarines novel. I haven't read anything about Kor Phaeron being one, though. In fact, he was depicted as a Chaos Marine in power armour in the 4th edition rulebook.

[Midwest]

The mutation issue (or lack thereof) was originally a way of differentiating the Legion from the others.

 

One of the key themes that WBs have (or have had, traditionally) is their relatively stability as a united legion compared to many of the other legions. The perceived lack of daemonprincehood, for example, is meant to reflect that Word Bearers are almost unique in retaining/maintaining an extensive hierarchy of command long after the Heresy.

 

Where Chaos has broken apart many of the legions, it has only intensified the authoritarian trait in the Word Bearers. As such, the legion does not produce leader types who would challenge Lorgar for leadership of the Legion, or reject him and try to splinter off into wholly independent warbands.

 

In other words, these traits (lack of DP's, a stable if wholly corrupted geneseed, etc.) are meant to be symbolic of how the Legion operates very differently than the rest, with a united fealty under Lorgar. While WB officers gaining daemonhood do not have to be a challenge to Lorgar, their lack is meant to symbolically underscore that the Legion remains united under their Primarch. Even their "undivided" worship of Chaos is meant to underscore that loyalty (as well as, again, differentiate them from the rest of the legions).

[Lexington]

What's been said is that word bearers recieve more gifts from the gods than what is usual, due to their faithful behaviour. Would not possession, mutation and ascension to daemonhood seem even more likely then?

I've always kind of figured that the Word Bearers' pantheistic worship mitigated their overall "faithyness" as far as mutation and (especially) daemonic ascension are concerned. Sure, they love the Gods with all of their black lil' souls, but at the end of the day, it seems a singularly-dedicated follower is more useful to any individual Power.

 

It's also never been clear (at least to me) how anyone of the "taste the rainbow" faith gets elevated to Daemon Prince-dom. Is there a committee that delegates this stuff? Do they have bylaws? Is there back-room wheeling and dealing? I'm all for this concept if it gets me a canonical Diabolical Tammany Hall, complete with a Tweed-bearded Bloodletter.

[TheDarkApostle]

It's also never been clear (at least to me) how anyone of the "taste the rainbow" faith gets elevated to Daemon Prince-dom. Is there a committee that delegates this stuff? Do they have bylaws? Is there back-room wheeling and dealing? I'm all for this concept if it gets me a canonical Diabolical Tammany Hall, complete with a Tweed-bearded Bloodletter.

As noted in both the Word Bearer IA and a couple of other tomes regarding Chaos: Sure, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh may be the BIG FOUR, aka the biggest of the things in the Warp. But they are hardly alone in there. There is an unfathomable amount of lesser Gods and Goddesses, Princes and Princesses, Dukes, Counts and other mischievous spirits. All barging and fighting with each other for more power.

 

TDA

[Midwest]

True, but I think Lexington's point is that DP-hood - at least they way it's been explained in the past - is not the "natural" result of Chaos worship, but is granted to a champion by his god.

 

If a champion is not dedicated to a single specific god (and by fluff most if not all Word Bearers refrain from that), there's no apparent means for him to become a daemon prince. DP-hood isn't the same thing as mutation or spawndom, i.e. things that can come about by a god's choice or "naturally" by simple exposure to raw Chaos and its corruptive effects. DP-hood, AFAIK, is exclusively a boon that must be granted by a god, not something a follower of Chaos can obtain on their own.

 

Abaddon's background does indicate the possibility that the gods will occasionally put aside differences to raise a champion who has not dedicated himself to any particular god, but that is probably such a rarity that it goes back to the point: by their fluff, Word Bearers do not do what, by GW's fluff, appears to be the foundational requirement for DP-hood (that is, dedication to a single god).

[TheDarkApostle]

Yeah, but the thing is, the power of Chaos are fickle and may bless even those of another faith just because that pawn did something to further their particular goal.

 

Well I had a perfect quote I was going to use but I can't find it at the moment.

 

But basically it went along the lines that even if someone is dedicated to Nurgle a particular brutal massacre may earn him blessings of Khrone, and likewise a pawn of Slaanesh who brings about a great plot may be gifted by Tzeentch, even if being a dedicated follower of Slaanesh.

 

Also works vice-versa and even between followers of opposing Gods IIRC.

 

TDA

[Lay]

Abaddon's background does indicate the possibility that the gods will occasionally put aside differences to raise a champion who has not dedicated himself to any particular god,

The existence of numerous Undivided Daemon Princes pretty much confirms it.

 

Periclitor's story from the previous CSM Codex is a good example of this. At some point he receives a vision of the Gods in which they promise him his ascension if he continues to serve them. And then there's Perturabo who was elevated by the pantheon after ritually sacrificing captured Imperial Fists gene-seed.

[TheDarkApostle]

And then there's Perturabo who was elevated by the pantheon after ritually sacrificing captured Imperial Fists gene-seed.

The sacrifice of the gene-seed was only the very last thing he had to do to ascend however, the way I recall it he did alot of stuff before that as well.

 

TDA

[Midwest]

And then there's Perturabo who was elevated by the pantheon after ritually sacrificing captured Imperial Fists gene-seed.

The sacrifice of the gene-seed was only the very last thing he had to do to ascend however, the way I recall it he did alot of stuff before that as well.

 

TDA

 

Also he's a Primarch, so probably treated differently than Joe Schmoe Aspiring Champion. :P

[Skirax]

What of the Warsmith in Storm of Iron? From what I can recall, he was Undivided, as he wasn't blood-crazed, nor bound by sorcery or hardened by disease, nor revelling in the sensations of battle.

[randian]

Also he's a Primarch, so probably treated differently than Joe Schmoe Aspiring Champion. :P

Of all the daemon Primarchs, Perturabo strikes me as the least dedicated to Chaos per se. If you make him a Champion, he could defect or quit. Best to own his soul right now, completely and irreversibly, before he wises up and changes his mind. I think that's why his "ascension condition" seems so weak compared to the others. He could easily have harvested and sacrificed the geneseed of thousands of Astartes long before he makes the Cage. The geneseed of 400 Astartes seems almost an afterthought given the carnage preceding it.

 

In Storm of Iron, he is described as nursing an endless hate. Hate of what? If he was an enthusiastic follower of Chaos like Angron or Lorgar, he should be happy. He's arrived where he deserves to be! His accomplishments have been duly recognized with vast personal power and true immortality. Instead, he hates. My assumption is that it's Chaos he hates; his one-way trip to the warp was a sucker's bet, and he got taken. He is far more a slave to Chaos than he ever was a pawn of the Emperor.

[Brother Ambroz]

Also he's a Primarch, so probably treated differently than Joe Schmoe Aspiring Champion. :)

Of all the daemon Primarchs, Perturabo strikes me as the least dedicated to Chaos per se. If you make him a Champion, he could defect or quit. Best to own his soul right now, completely and irreversibly, before he wises up and changes his mind. I think that's why his "ascension condition" seems so weak compared to the others. He could easily have harvested and sacrificed the geneseed of thousands of Astartes long before he makes the Cage. The geneseed of 400 Astartes seems almost an afterthought given the carnage preceding it.

 

In Storm of Iron, he is described as nursing an endless hate. Hate of what? If he was an enthusiastic follower of Chaos like Angron or Lorgar, he should be happy. He's arrived where he deserves to be! His accomplishments have been duly recognized with vast personal power and true immortality. Instead, he hates. My assumption is that it's Chaos he hates; his one-way trip to the warp was a sucker's bet, and he got taken. He is far more a slave to Chaos than he ever was a pawn of the Emperor.

 

Guys I don't know where you're getting this but Storm of Iron wasn't about Perturabo it was just an unnamed warsmith.