chaos termies, are they really that bad?

[greatcrusade08]

sorry if there are threads out there, i did a quick search but couldnt find anything relevant.

 

Basically it boils down to this.. why do people think chaos termies are rubbish.. the only tactic i see being offered is the combi-melta termicide unit.

I personally dont beleive they are bad at all, they are so changeable i cant see how they couldnt be handy tbh.

 

MoS gives you power weapons that strike before most MEQs.. a mistake i made once by 'not minding' that my opponent forgot his list.. i thought they were generic, imagine my surprise :)

 

MoK and champs with claws, ok its expensive but even only taking one champ with claws means 6 PW attacks on the charge.. with re-rolls, ouch!

 

MoN, T5 termies.. hello????

 

Plus you can do what C:SM cant and interchange the weapons....

 

I guess i just dont understand why everyone smears them in weak sauce.. can anyone explain it to me please?

[the jeske]

MoS gives you power weapons that strike before most MEQs.. a mistake i made once by 'not minding' that my opponent forgot his list

only our termis dont get frag , nor do they get TH/SS. so if there is any cover [and objectives are rarely in open fields] they strike last . our LR are both smaller[only 5 guys] and without PotMS and they have the las load out only what is bad for a hth build army . we have no way of making the termis fearless , the way icons work they can die very fast . we have no character that can make the unit better , but we are still forced to run a lord [sub par option] to baby sit them.

giving them shoting upgrades when they are something more then 4 dudes makes no sense . the combi shoting part can be covered by a unit or two of termicid [and those dont need a LR to do it]. They are not much better then zerker for a hth build [and zerkers are scoring , with frags and more bodies and fearless]. yes they can wipe a tac , but then again so can other units that have more utilty in chaos lists [like csm or zerkers] .

 

MoN, T5 termies.. hello????

hello what ? MoN is the most crapy upgrade ever for any chaos unit and for termis specialy. If they die from range its str7+ so it doesnt help . If they die in hth they die from relic blades/frost blade, fists/TH or MC all those ignore the MoN . the MoN makes them better against las gun and bolter fire. cool , but termis are already good against that and if there is more then 3 of them they should be in a transport and then small weapon fire should do nothing to them.

 

MoK and champs with claws, ok its expensive but even only taking one champ with claws means 6 PW attacks on the charge.. with re-rolls, ouch!

aha so in cover you strike with 4 dudes [lets say they have a baby sitter lord, non died and our opponent realy did let us charge his unit and that this is not a trap and our 600+pts termi unit wont be dead next turn] half attacks hit half wound then re-roll so about 2 dead meq and then lets say 3-4 from the other termis. the lord kills 3-4 [lets say he didnt roll a one or is a khorn lord with LC] we almost wiped a tactical.... that is if they didnt kill any . which means the camper is not a SW or BA one [because for orks or IG , zerkers would kill more for the same points and be scoring.] becasue those would kill some termis [sW with their power weapon+ mark + fist actualy have a good chance to kill a lot of them].

[Zhukov]

Hey GC08! ^^

 

Well Jeske already points out most stuff why our Termies dont really work that well as a CC unit. Maybe its also interesting to look how they work in a Marines army:

TH/SS termies in a Land Raider almost every single time. It gives you a chance to counter certain elite units (nob bikers for example) in Close Combat. They give you something which you cannot get somewhere else in the codex. Chaos Termies dont give us anything which Princes, Zerkers or Oblits dont give us. They just dont really furfill any role.

[Chengar Qordath]

Jeske pretty much summed up all the problems Chaos Terminators have, but I would say that by far the biggest one is the weakness of Chaos Land Raiders in comparison to their loyalist counterparts. Give Chaos something like the Land Raider Crusader with high transport capacity and frags for the Terminators and Chaos Terminators built for assault would be a much better option. A high-capacity transport would also make icons a much better deal since it would mean larger units.

 

Shooty Chaos Terminators do not work well outside of Termicide.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Sad fact is that they seemed to try very hard to make Chaos Termies something worth taking, and then undermined that effort with points costs and shortchanging on equipment. ;)

[Brother Nihm]

Another strike against them is they cannot be fielded with any long range anti-tank.

I.e. no Cyclones.

 

That, coupled with their poor melee options (mentioned above) pretty much forces them into a short-range anti-tank/infantry unit, which we have plenty of.

They bring one thing to the table that our basic units do not however, a low price (Termicide) and the ability to Deepstrike.

[Vissah]

I have to say that Terminators are bad in general.

I played with them, I even played with the Hammer and Shield ones with shooty ones and Chaos ones and Im definitely not a fan of them.

They dont have grenades, they cant sweeping advance and a squad of Marines shoot harder then a squad of Terminators.

 

Just give me power armour, bolter, boltpistol and a chainsword and send me on my way :rolleyes:

[Master of fact]

I like them. I play a fluffy death guard army. Last game i took 7 terminators with the MoN and powerfists, teamed up with ( please dont get angry Jeske) Typhus. That unit scared the crap out of my enemy. They marched through 2 long fang units a command unit and pack of blood claws.

 

By that stage it was just typhus down to one wound and got hit by a lsacannon :

 

Yes its a big points sink, but they hit hard IF you get them there.

[crandall87]

I have never had much luck from them myself. I do like being able to mix the close combat weapons such as power weapons and fists so you don't always strike last but getting into combat is usually the trouble. If you're doing a combi melta deep strike suicide squad, then i'd rather just take oblits for that

[hazardousZERO]

Ive taken many different combos of terminaters like MoK/champ with claws and MoN at a full 10 man squad and they were both good as long as they gep put in there ideal situations but there also lies the proublem the needed a certin thing too happent too be effictive. My favorite use for them is the termicide the drop in and blow up a big expensive tank. Then the enemy doesnt want it to happent again and masses fire on them, not really knowing they have done there job and are ment to do exactily what is happening and that is draw fire.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Yes its a big points sink, but they hit hard IF you get them there.

The problem is Chaos's problem IS getting them in there. No Frags, no Frag Assault Launchers on Land Raiders... I could go on. Deepstriking means no assault...

[Master of fact]

I have sworn to NEVER deepstrike again. I lost a ten man terminator squad, a five man terminator squad and an assault squad to mishap in one game. That was a horrible game.sigh. "wishing for new codex"

[Brother Ambroz]

Has anyone tried tzeentchi termies? I was thinking of trying mine out with MoT and claws maybe....

[greatcrusade08]

i realise alot of guys dislike them, as was the point of this topic.. but are you giving them a fair enough chance or are you looking at them on paper and walking away.

 

the biggest advantage to them is thier cost, alot cheaper than generic C:SM.. id DS themrather than LRs (mainly due to melta/lascannon and lance spam at the moment), but preferably DS them in a list that can accomodate them.. chaos has alot of icons kicking about.

 

if i ad a daemon prince and raptors and whatnot in my opponents grill he might not have the weapons spare to target a unit of 5 termies that just DSd in his back yard.. but placement is a key also.. keep thm out of range of melta and plasma and it should be fine.

 

im just spitballing, but i cant see why they cant be useful.. even if all they are is a 200 point distraction force keeping your rhinos chance to cross the board whilst he fires heavys at them.

 

surely someone has got some anecdotal evidence to bring to the table?

[Shas'o R'Vre]

surely someone has got some anecdotal evidence to bring to the table?

For me it's the lack of range on their weapons that kills them. 24" is the maximum effective range for Chaos Terms realistically (One Autocannon isn't really an effective use of Terminators), with 12" for Assault Terms, and that conveniently happens to be the range of all the weapons that kills them well (Plasma, Plasma Cannons, Demolisher cannons, ect).

[the jeske]

Has anyone tried tzeentchi termies? I was thinking of trying mine out with MoT and claws maybe....

they dont fit in not enough points. if you play with 1ksons you want as much anti tank as you can get [because your troops give you non] so all extra slots go in to oblits . if someone plays more points[like 2250 or more] you would still want to have termicid over a normal termi squad. they could work as counter units in bigger games , but as they arent realy good at normal points hth , then they are not getting better when there is more stuff to counter and more units or uber units[for me anything that costs 400pts up].

 

 

but are you giving them a fair enough chance or are you looking at them on paper and walking away

was tested more then a year and a half ago. 6-7 man combi squads instead of oblits to get more close up preasure on enemy armies . it did not work then and after IG and SW came up it didnt suddenly start to work [happens sometimes to some builds . for example biker armies in a razor spam or IG hvy enviroment actualy got better then when codex loyalist came out].

if i ad a daemon prince and raptors and whatnot in my opponents grill he might not have the weapons spare to target a unit of 5 termies that just DSd in his back yard.

a good army should be able to handle[at 1500] 3 troops in rhinos 2 DPs 4 oblits or a variation of this. If playing with a single DP and a raptor unit overloads an army abilty to counter , then it is a bad army . And while in an enviroment like that termis may work , it is just a win more option [as a normal list would win too, only faster and easier] .

 

even if all they are is a 200 point distraction force keeping your rhinos chance to cross the board whilst he fires heavys at them.

for 10 pts more you cant have 2 termicid that will do double the distraction tap double the targets and wont be a bait for any low ap blast weapons/plasma , because in fact if you take termicid you want your opponent to kill them.

[Brother Nihm]

surely someone has got some anecdotal evidence to bring to the table?

For me it's the lack of range on their weapons that kills them. 24" is the maximum effective range for Chaos Terms realistically (One Autocannon isn't really an effective use of Terminators)

To make matters worse it is actually 18" (12" + 6" from moving) as we don't have Relentless.

 

I have tried many different combinations, from MoK + Twin claws (carry over models from 2nd ed.) to MoT 10 model strong combi and dual reaper spam.

 

The only unit I've gotten to work reliably well is a 4-5 (pts allowing) man unit with 1 chainfist, a Heavy Flamer and Combi-Plasmas.

[Brother Ambroz]

Has anyone tried tzeentchi termies? I was thinking of trying mine out with MoT and claws maybe....

they dont fit in not enough points. if you play with 1ksons you want as much anti tank as you can get [because your troops give you non] so all extra slots go in to oblits . if someone plays more points[like 2250 or more] you would still want to have termicid over a normal termi squad. they could work as counter units in bigger games , but as they arent realy good at normal points hth , then they are not getting better when there is more stuff to counter and more units or uber units[for me anything that costs 400pts up].

 

I wasn't talking about a cult army. I was just looking for a semi-durable CC type squad which tzeentchi termies seem like they wouldn't be too bad at with a 4+ invuln. It sure isn't as good as the damn shields but it's something at least.

[greatcrusade08]

if i ad a daemon prince and raptors and whatnot in my opponents grill he might not have the weapons spare to target a unit of 5 termies that just DSd in his back yard.

a good army should be able to handle[at 1500] 3 troops in rhinos 2 DPs 4 oblits or a variation of this. If playing with a single DP and a raptor unit overloads an army abilty to counter , then it is a bad army . And while in an enviroment like that termis may work , it is just a win more option [as a normal list would win too, only faster and easier] .

 

im only trying to give examples, not army builds.. one-upmanship is not productive to this discussion.

 

i do however agree with this:

for 10 pts more you cant have 2 termicid that will do double the distraction tap double the targets and wont be a bait for any low ap blast weapons/plasma , because in fact if you take termicid you want your opponent to kill them.

 

6 termies in two units at base cost (plus combi weapons) is going to be more survivable than 4-5 termies in one unit.. but what about the following:

term champ, twin claws

term with combi x 3

 

its about 50 points more than a 3 man termicide squad, but aslong as the champ survives he can cause some problems in the next turn..

[Narse]

I like them on paper, haven't played with them in practice much.

 

I think the real issue is the lack of Machine Spirit rule that Space Marines get as it makes our Land Raider's very inferior.

 

We do lose a few rules due too our slightly inferior version of terminator armor, but on the upside we have alot more deadly options for cheaper. Deep Striking seems a must though with the current rules system.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

surely someone has got some anecdotal evidence to bring to the table?

For me it's the lack of range on their weapons that kills them. 24" is the maximum effective range for Chaos Terms realistically (One Autocannon isn't really an effective use of Terminators)

To make matters worse it is actually 18" (12" + 6" from moving) as we don't have Relentless.

I was assuming that they were on the board in range at the start of the turn, but you are correct, DSing and Movement kills your range.

[the jeske]

its about 50 points more than a 3 man termicide squad, but aslong as the champ survives he can cause some problems in the next turn..

I have problems with seeing what types of builds 4 power weapon units without frags and with a 12" hth treat range give problems to opposing armies . they wont beat a chaos unit and they wont beat a unit of BA ras or SW GH. If they try to go after something like oblits/LF/hive guard they will get intercepted by counter units and at best will tar pit the counter unit [normaly they die in one phase] . against stuff like IG or gunline lists they will do the same what a termicid does so land , shot and die . But that LC and champion upgrade and 4th termy do not come for free , something has to go out. chaos armies are rather inflexible as troops go and we dont have a way to make termis troops [or any other unit] would could make termis in bigger units more viable . + with that load out you want to use you have to target walkers or MC if the opposing army has them , because if you dont the termis will get tarpited [and our termis do run from hth ].

 

 

im only trying to give examples, not army builds.. one-upmanship is not productive to this discussion.

while I do not understand what one upmanship means , I would like to add that there is no such thing as a unit without an army list. This is not warmachine where caster make stuff cheaper or free or change the rules , which sometimes makes stuff that is weak actualy good [or different enough to make it viable] . 4 or 5 or 6 termis cost points . we dont have combat tactics so we can split our guys , we have to play with the same number of troops other armies play , and as people tested termis builds[because chaos freaking sucked with the same build always being the best and people trying to find a way to play something at least a bit different] playing with more termis [or bikes or chosen or raptors] and fewer troops does not help the list . cuting on HQ doesnt help because DPs are much better suited[aka faster then deep striking or slogging big units of termis] for chaos lists . playing big units of termis instead of oblits on the other hand is playing a fire build [or like some call it an alfa strike build] and it is too random and makes the list offten kill itself[turn two bad deep strike or no units come and you get tabled because you play 2/3 of points your opponent does].

[Legatus]

Just a few stats...

 

 

10 MEQ with 2+/5++ save, 2 base attacks, power weapon and twin linked boltgun who can re-roll LD 10 morale tests --> 310 points. That is a steal, and the only issue is that they cannot be tranported in a Rhino.

 

 

8 MEQ with same as above but Initiative 5, four of which are Champions with TLLC --> 335 points. When assaulted will inflict 8 wounds on MEQ at Initiative 5. One of the most threatening HtH units in the game due to good protection and high initiative power weapon damage.

 

 

8 MEQ with same as first but 3 base attacks, four of which are Champions with PF --> 350 points. Can inflict 10 wounds on MEQ when not charging. Can inflict 7 wounds on T6 creatures. You basically just need to have four khorne champions with powerfist in the unit to kill any Tyranid monstrous creature in one turn. The "cheap" Terminators are used to soak up the initial damage (as with the slaanesh squad).

[Brother Ambroz]

Just a few stats...

 

 

10 MEQ with 2+/5++ save, 2 base attacks, power weapon and twin linked boltgun who can re-roll LD 10 morale tests --> 310 points. That is a steal, and the only issue is that they cannot be tranported in a Rhino.

 

 

8 MEQ with same as above but Initiative 5, four of which are Champions with TLLC --> 335 points. When assaulted will inflict 8 wounds on MEQ at Initiative 5. One of the most threatening HtH units in the game due to good protection and high initiative power weapon damage.

 

 

8 MEQ with same as first but 3 base attacks, four of which are Champions with PF --> 350 points. Can inflict 10 wounds on MEQ when not charging. Can inflict 7 wounds on T6 creatures. You basically just need to have four khorne champions with powerfist in the unit to kill any Tyranid monstrous creature in one turn. The "cheap" Terminators are used to soak up the initial damage (as with the slaanesh squad).

 

I think I'm going to try one of these out they look interesting.

[Seahawk]

I frequently have used mobs of 10 and some of 5-8. They've always swung games for me where the rest of the army fails or simply can't affect the enemy. Sure, if you build an internet cookie terminators are fairly useless outside of termicide, but if you use even a modicum of creativity they produce results that cannot be competed with by anything else in the army. I always deep strike or walk them.

 

It also depends on your opponents. If they use internet cookies against you and you don't, your army will crumble. It's all about who brings what.