chaos termies, are they really that bad?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I have sworn to NEVER deepstrike again. I lost a ten man terminator squad, a five man terminator squad and an assault squad to mishap in one game. That was a horrible game.sigh. "wishing for new codex"

 

I'll assume there were no Icons within range to come in off of? :)

[Shas'o R'Vre]

I have sworn to NEVER deepstrike again. I lost a ten man terminator squad, a five man terminator squad and an assault squad to mishap in one game. That was a horrible game.sigh. "wishing for new codex"

 

I'll assume there were no Icons within range to come in off of? :)

I'm assuming he was playing Loyalist dogs Marines, so he was going off the somewhat rare Teleport Homer.

[Zhukov]

Examples of when I do use them? Or plan to use them?

 

I use them when I want more firepower in my army, when I already have 3x 2 Obliterators. I dont want to play with 3x3 Obliterators, as that means I can still only fire at 3 different targets.

 

I'm pretty sure I talked about this before, but a 3 man Termi unit with 2x Combimelta and 1x Reaper can be another anti-armour/transport unit. Especially now with IG Chimera spam, Razor/rhino spam AND the new Dark Eldar its not that bad. It might even be good...

 

Problem is still that you need to cutt points from somewhere. In 1500 its not doable. You want to take 2 squads, so thats 2x 125= 250 points. 1 Prince and 1/2 a troop choice? Its the only option.

 

3x 2 Oblits + 2x 3 Termies are pretty flexible though, as they can all choose to deepstrike. Or not. Or some of them. Against most armies they will have some good targets.

 

So: the only possible use I see for termies is when your Heavy support is already filled up. Oblits are superior, so it makes no sense to take them instead of those.

[Master of fact]

Yes, ultras to be precise......

[chaplain belisarius]

personally i think chaos terminators are far better than their loyalist counterparts (power weapon instead of powerfist is much better). Admittedly they are more of a close range firefight/melee unit but that works fine in a chaos army...

[Xeonic]

Power weapon vs fist is a wash. The Fists are better vs troops without massed PWs that strike at I, tougher troops, vehicles, walkers, MCs, and the like. You may take a casualty or two going in(you would anyways vs most things that would threaten you!) but you'll hit harder and cause more death in the end. The Power Weapons being S4 and no attack bonus are less efficient killers of troops and can't even scratch tougher targets such as MCs and walkers, even having a tough time vs the rear AV10 of most vehicles. Sane walkers won't even charge loyalist termies as it's certain death to them, even moreso if one guy spends the 5pts to take a chainfist.

 

Marines charging 5x otherwise naked chaos PW termies will suffer 2.5 wounds in return, struck simultaneously

(possibly first with IoS). Marines charging 5x loyalist tac termies will suffer average 3.82, though with the potential for casualties before some models strike.

On the charge, 5 tac termies average 5.73 meq on the charge, again with the potential for casualties to lower that number. Chaos termies will kill 3.75 in contrast, though once again they can increase that number or strike first, or reduce incoming casualties by enhanced toughness(making them less vulnerable to bolters and chainswords and normal PW), or increased invuln(making them less vulnerable to things normally used to kill termies, las/plas/PW spam and the like).

I say the fist vs PW argument is a wash because it depends entirely on the squad they're up against and how many terminators they can kill at I4 or better. Honor guard in example will drastically favor the odds of the chaos PW termies, espescially with IoS, whereas a tac marine squad that will kill a third of a terminator on the charge with normal attacks(before fist strikes ofc) will be drastically more hurt by a unit with 4 powerfists.

 

Now lightning claws are a really fearsome terminator borne troop slaughtering weapon. :lol:

 

Chaos termies are hampered by lack of any real ranged firepower upgrade and as stated on p1 they lack real relentless, instead having a rule that allows them to fire rapidfire and heavy weapons on the move and then assault, real relentless lets them fire as if they were stationary, which is an important distinction when they're all armed with rapid fire weapons. Within 12" they have more firepower than an equivalent number of loyalist tac termies and more or less CC power(depending on upgrades). Loyalist termies have meaningful ranged weapon sets which make them a whole lot more attractive on that front, and loyalist assault termies are both cheaper as a unit than chaos termies set up for CC and have a good transport, as well as the whole "any member can have a 3++ free if he wants to", the downside of which is that you have to also exchange your claws for a giant hammer.

 

IMO as ranged support troops they can work, but only at close range do they shine, and your normal chaos army has plenty of close range firepower in the form of either chaos marines or plague marines. Of course heavy flamer and a few combi flamers or combi meltas wherever you need them is good, but they still rely on finickey reserve rolls. In assault they are good in that they are one of our most potent options(khorne twin LC champions!) but they suffer from a lack of good transport(their only assault transport is one that wants to sit back and shoot!) or any real way to deliver them efficiently.

 

They're a good solid unit that IMO there's no truely effective way to fully utilize as current, they can have up to 4A base, be T5, get a 4++, or I5, or morale rerolls on LD10, all of which are good options, though all but IoS and chaos glory are expensive.

Of course in apoc you can just slip them into a LRR with Abbadon or Khârn and use them to beat face, but normally we don't have that luxury.

[nurglez]

I must admit, when playing chaos, the only room i have for terminators is in my 2000 point dg army. 2 squads of termicide and 2 oblitorators sorts out my anti tank nicely without moving away from my nurgleness :lol:

 

although idealy id have a squad of 4 and a squad of 3 hehe.

 

termicide in themed armies that lack dedicated anti tank, along with just providing a small elite cheap squad that can multi task, my guys have taken out vindicators, helped me kill a daemon prince on my second turn (my opponant wasnt too pleased), shot down dreadnaughts, vendetta's just after they have shown up.

 

I just cant see it worth taking a larger squad, putting more points into them when they work so well for me as throw away units, which is just plain stupid, best use i can find for our rare, hard to produce and did i mention rare suits of terminator armor is to throw them away.

 

that said, I shall try out that 8 termi khorne squad with 4 fists, probably with a khorn lord with twin lcs too :)

[the jeske]

8 MEQ with same as first but 3 base attacks, four of which are Champions with PF --> 350 points. Can inflict 10 wounds on MEQ when not charging. Can inflict 7 wounds on T6 creatures. You basically just need to have four khorne champions with powerfist in the unit to kill any Tyranid monstrous creature in one turn.

how do you get 8 terminators in to assault range ? without them being ignored or shot to hell and back.

and they only hit first if they dont charge in to cover. plasma will decimate them . blast will hurt them a lot , they die like all teq [but cost more because of champion upgrades] .+ there is a lot of fire incoming on your army , becuase 350 pts means no oblits[so no hvy support] and either a cut DP or cut troops . + if any MC that is nid is going to be in hth its going to have lash whips or a unit with it , so all champs will hit at i 1.

 

 

If they use internet cookies against you and you don't, your army will crumble.

ehhh another words if someone uses a good build they suck ? or do you say that if you play a termi build against an optimised list they make the chaos army superior . if yes then I would like to know against what build to big terminator units work better then taking oblits and/or DPs ?

[Legatus]

how do you get 8 terminators in to assault range ? without them being ignored or shot to hell and back.

Yes, yes, Terminators are useless. I get it now.

[Biaz]

Personally, I've found terminators to be one of the most successful units on the field. I typically outfit them with the mark of khorne/tzeench, depending on my mood, and equip them with lightning claws and heavy flamers. They've ripped their way through countless imperial guard regiments and space marine squads, and have a huge fear factor attributed to them, so most players go out of their way to avoid them

[Seahawk]

how do you get 8 terminators in to assault range ? without them being ignored or shot to hell and back

Tactics! :D

 

ehhh another words if someone uses a good build they suck ?

Well they might, but the army will prop them up like a handy crutch and they can win still. No, if someone uses a good build they'll usually (NOT always) crush a bad build, simple as that.

 

against what build to big terminator units work better then taking oblits and/or DPs ?

Almost any. It's like magic, baby! ;)

[the jeske]

Tactics!

you may as well say magic :(. am asking how. you will have problems deep striking them because of IG/mystic combos and SW/BA/chaos runs enough plasma/vindicators[bA only]/plasma canons to discourage big deep striking units . fot slogging is even worse , because you not only suffer from the same weapons you would when you deep strike , but you also do it for longer . in fact with a lot [aka most] armies being mecha a big unit of termis may struggle to get in to charge range [or melta or double tap plasma range] .

 

 

No, if someone uses a good build they'll usually (NOT always) crush a bad build, simple as that.

why wouldnt anyone need set ups for an army that crushes bad builds only :huh: ? this an army desing point of view I have not yet seen in my 20+ years of gaming.

Almost any. It's like magic, baby!

how . and by god I cant believe you actualy said magic .

 

Yes, yes, Terminators are useless. I get it now.

dude am saying why they dont work . the testing was done and it was done more then once [aka not just when the codex came out]. there were even topic on this very forum when people tried [and not one game but proper testing] the 4 man plas/reaper build as support the 6-7 man build[i even played that build in 4th ed for some time , while they were still scoring and I didnt want to play the normal oblit builds] both with the 6-7 plas and the 50/50 melta/plas load outs. What you say is to either deep strike or slogg a unit of termis . only it doesnt work , not even loyalists deep strike or slogg their and they have charas that buff term units[like a chappy or a libby or even a SS/RB cpt if someone is crazy enough] , they have +3inv , they dont lose the whole unit if a few dudes die and they fail a ld test. no one uses big slogging termi units , save for SW with logan and even there they tend to use a pods and their termis unlike ours are scoring, with SS better wound allocation and more support units [and the list is still not very viable , its like playing 1ksons or NM with chaos].

[Seahawk]

you may as well say magic . am asking how.

I do! It all depends on your play skill, your opponent's play skill, both of your army's make up, terrain, game type, and lastly the dice. I can't possibly write something short with all of those random variables, so all I can say is it's magic. I use them, it beats all those things you've said, I can't explain it just does.

 

why wouldnt anyone need set ups for an army that crushes bad builds only

Never said that. This is twice you've put words in my mouth; please stop. It's simple logic that good builds crush bad builds in some cases. Good builds vs good builds just balances out and who knows who will win.

[greatcrusade08]

i think seahawk has touched on an interesting subject.. its the x-factor of gaming.. luck and good tactics can often win a game.

and when people say tactics, you need to remember that different people see the games in different ways.. as the metagame is somewhat geographical so to are tactics (all one big ball of wax really).

What works for some wont work for others.. so its important to take all opinions with equal merit aslong as they are educated/experienced responses with tangible results).

 

i keep coming back to it, but i still get alot of flack for playing scout armies, apparently they suck like mail order thai bride.. but ive managed to make them work and frequently beat ToS lists/players.

the occasional 'different' tactic/build can often bring a shock factor to a game

[chaplain belisarius]

exactly! its meant to be fun rather than efficient! B)

[Zhukov]

why wouldnt anyone need set ups for an army that crushes bad builds only

Never said that. This is twice you've put words in my mouth; please stop. It's simple logic that good builds crush bad builds in some cases. Good builds vs good builds just balances out and who knows who will win.

I'm pretty sure Jeske didnt mean to do that, he just misread your words thats all. Not everybody his English is perfect you know.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Not everybody his English is perfect you know.

Quoted for sheer win.

[the jeske]

It all depends on your play skill, your opponent's play skill, both of your army's make up, terrain, game type, and lastly the dice

ok again . how ? what make up of list , at how many points . chaos armies look the same and have identical game play up to 2k points [and for more its a question of how many LR are in it]. it is not like we have HQs or stuff that changes FoC or something [like loyalist for example where we could argue if bikes are good in a list without a cpt].

So how do you balance it . 8-10 termis with combis and by the look of it 3 fist [the 3 fists per unit ratio] costs huge points . Am asking how do you fit it in a list , how do you cover for lack of anti tank [or I dont know playing with 2x5 troops set up]. how does the game play look like with a foot slogging alfa strike build , that can target 1 unit per turn [if its lucky] ? no other alfa strike list works like that [the IG cav , the BA builds , the 2x10 pedro sternguard build that combats squads after landing].

as skills go am assuming we are talking about good players , because for bad players it doesnt matter what we bring . Same with terrain . normal set up. because on glass plains or lava boards the termis are dead and on dense terrain boards they not only suffer from landing in some sort of impassible terrain , but also from the problems of going in to hth or shoting range .

 

as dice go. Are you saying that they get better when you make your own ? becaues while that is true for all units , it is also cheating . Or am I missing something here ?

 

as the metagame is somewhat geographical so to are tactics

 

 

0_o am looking at the US boards . meq armies are mecha , there are more or less the same builds we have in main land europe with the difference we play 1500-2000 and they play 1850-2500. I dont see nor have I heared about realy odd enviroments , save for AUS and the nord man tournaments [pre build armies by orgs , because of enforced strickt composition points] . So I think that around the world an oblit , a 10 man csm squad , a DP or a zerker unit are used in the same way .And if they are miss geared then they suck the same no matter if you play in Berlin or Chi town.

 

What works for some wont work for others.. so its important to take all opinions with equal merit aslong as they are educated/experienced responses with tangible results).

the testing was done , the resoults where posted here too. that is why am asking how do people make 10 man termi units work . In what kind of a list ? is it 2500 pts lists or maybe somewhere where there are odd house rules etc . Testing is for w40k is done the same way as it is done in science . If someone says he has great resoults in many games [because something working one time , doesnt prove nothing , save for the complet randomness of life] , I want to know how that looked . And when someone says it works because of his and his opponents play styles [because If I went in with the same style of arguments , I could just say "well its just because you play against bad players] , for me , its like saying it was done with magic . one of the main characteristic of any testing or experiment is that , it should be possible to reapet it.

 

am bored with chaos , I was bored with it after the first 2 months of play testing . I would realy be happy to see something new , because it is not like am omnipotent . when I ask how the build works , I want to know how it looks , saying it works because of opponent play style and becaues of dice does not help me a lot with understanding how could I use the give idea[in our case big hth or shoty or mix termi units] .

 

 

i keep coming back to it, but i still get alot of flack for playing scout armies, apparently they suck like mail order thai bride.. but ive managed to make them work and frequently beat ToS lists/players

well I play NM and they actualy suck too. But I do understand the idea behind scout builds [both the alfa strike shriek ones or the ones that play more like the AL build in 3.5 dex] . I know what unit does what what is a better tar pit and what is the better counter , how does a list change if Anti tank is done with MM a bikes and what if the same anti tank is done by drop dreads or what happens if the fire base/Anti tank is done by rifle man . I may not like it [mostly because I dont like sm builds] , but I do understand how they work , where they are good and where they suck . with a 8-10 man termi unit I see the "suck" part outweight the good part [creating a big unit with lots of power weapon attacks and teq stats near the enemy army , at least technicly] by so much that I dont see the viabilty of a big termi unit . And as the starting question was if there is a way to effectivly use termis as something other then a termicid , I feel as If am not given enough counter arguments here.

now if the question was can big termi squads be done for fluff then the anwser would be yes [because the list says we can have more then 8 which more or less covers all holy numbers for legions].

[greatcrusade08]

What works for some wont work for others.. so its important to take all opinions with equal merit aslong as they are educated/experienced responses with tangible results).

the testing was done , the resoults where posted here too. that is why am asking how do people make 10 man termi units work . In what kind of a list ? is it 2500 pts lists or maybe somewhere where there are odd house rules etc . Testing is for w40k is done the same way as it is done in science . If someone says he has great resoults in many games [because something working one time , doesnt prove nothing , save for the complet randomness of life] , I want to know how that looked . And when someone says it works because of his and his opponents play styles [because If I went in with the same style of arguments , I could just say "well its just because you play against bad players] , for me , its like saying it was done with magic . one of the main characteristic of any testing or experiment is that , it should be possible to reapet it.

 

 

with all respect jeske this is the main reason i dont like posting on online boards.. you come across with this attitude that if it hasnt worked for you then it doesnt work full stop..

but the world is alot bigger than you my friend.. if others say it has worked then id like to hear more from them without all the negativity.

 

generally i like to stand on the shoulders of giants, it was brother tual who gave me my first taste of tactical play, he got his from silent requiem.. but i dont 'copy' these guys.. i took what i learnt from them and added my own twist.

No one player knows more than everyone else.. as i said before sometimes a quirk can win games..

 

we cant forget these are still termies we are talking about, in a vacuum they are a very good unit, on the tabletop it cant be that hard to make a good unit work.

[minigun762]

we cant forget these are still termies we are talking about, in a vacuum they are a very good unit, on the tabletop it cant be that hard to make a good unit work.

 

Thats true. Even in the "bad" loadouts, Chaos Terminators are still a guy with a 2+ armor save and at least a Power Weapon and none of that is bad.

 

Its been mentioned a few times but the drawback of viewing things in a vacuum is that your army doesn't function in one and neither does your opponent. A lot of what is wrong with Chaos Terminators is that they are inferior in regard to other choices within the codex or within other armies. This leads many to the assessment that they are bad at that role but in truth its not that they're bad, its just that there are better options available.

 

The prime example I can think of is putting Terminators or Berserkers into a Land Raider.

 

You can go back and forth on which one is better but in the end, most people side with the Beserkers because they 1) are scoring and 2) better fit in the smaller Land Raider that Chaos uses.

 

If we said that Chaos could have Loyalist Land Raider sizes of 12, would that still be the same? Maybe not. If we said that Chaos could have the equivalent of a Redeemer or Crusader would it be the same? Who knows? But as it is now, the majority of people pick the Berserkers. If you were set on using Terminators, you wouldn't be using a "bad" unit, just a sub-optimal one but as long as you are ok with that and have an understanding of how best to use the choices you have made, you'll still be able to field a competitive list, just not the most competitive on average.

[Hellios]

What works for some wont work for others.. so its important to take all opinions with equal merit aslong as they are educated/experienced responses with tangible results).

the testing was done , the resoults where posted here too. that is why am asking how do people make 10 man termi units work . In what kind of a list ? is it 2500 pts lists or maybe somewhere where there are odd house rules etc . Testing is for w40k is done the same way as it is done in science . If someone says he has great resoults in many games [because something working one time , doesnt prove nothing , save for the complet randomness of life] , I want to know how that looked . And when someone says it works because of his and his opponents play styles [because If I went in with the same style of arguments , I could just say "well its just because you play against bad players] , for me , its like saying it was done with magic . one of the main characteristic of any testing or experiment is that , it should be possible to reapet it.

 

 

with all respect jeske this is the main reason i dont like posting on online boards.. you come across with this attitude that if it hasnt worked for you then it doesnt work full stop..

but the world is alot bigger than you my friend.. if others say it has worked then id like to hear more from them without all the negativity.

 

generally i like to stand on the shoulders of giants, it was brother tual who gave me my first taste of tactical play, he got his from silent requiem.. but i dont 'copy' these guys.. i took what i learnt from them and added my own twist.

No one player knows more than everyone else.. as i said before sometimes a quirk can win games..

 

we cant forget these are still termies we are talking about, in a vacuum they are a very good unit, on the tabletop it cant be that hard to make a good unit work.

 

 

I think Jeske comes from a pure what is likely to happen look and with his English not being perfect but it is better than the "insert second language of choice" of a lot of other people.

 

I don't think Jeske is saying you can't win if you use terminators... I mean I've won lists using terminators... (not chaos ones) where I've used deepstrike because that is a theme in my list (Deathwing) but that if you want to you want to be able to rely on them you need a raider or a shrike build or something so that either way it takes a lot of points or you have to build your army around that.

 

Then if we look at Chaos terminators we don't have shrike... or khan.. so I guess it is raider, deepstrike or footslogging... the problem with footslogging is obvious... deepstriking is a risk... in big tourny games you can't always take the risk that your point sink won't turn up until turn 5 you need it in early to do damage where you need it done.

 

Then you have the problem with terminators themselves I remember not so long ago in 3rd and 4th that many space marine players didn't take tactical terminators as a big threat... because inside a raider they did nothing... in a raider they may as well be assault terminators and even assault terminators were a worry because they would die to AP2 weapons if the raider went boom... (see the raider problem again)... now BTs got around this by sticking larger units in a crusader with furious charge (which we don't have) and the accept any challenge (which chaos again lacks...)... S5, I5 reroll hits and reroll wounds... yer thats pretty nasty it was worth the risk... then Codex SM came out a so the rise of the Hammernator man a 3++ in CC and shooting is annoying... you may as well bolter them unless you have a tone of spare plasma and the like... even if they don't make it in combat they can basorb so much fire... and Vulkan makes them better.

 

Chaos Terminators on the other hand... have the bonus of being cheaper... however their basic fire power is inferior to tactical marines... taking loads of combi-weapons is the only plus side... in shooting... now CC you have power weapons... which goes both ways when compared to tactical terminators as you strike at I but have less strength so it depends on your target... compared to assault marines... only icons give chaos an advantage (yay more points) as you might strike first or with more attacks and so on... however you will most likely either end up killing each other or they will have storm shields... pass their saves and then kill you.... you might come up against a LC squad I suppose outside of the black templars... but TH + SS are far more common in my Experiance...

 

Oh and and when we break in combat we actually die... how we wish we had the fearless rule like the deathwing (who along with wolf guard terminator units are the closest imperial counter-parts of chaos marines... feel free to compare).

 

Then the whole player skill tactics thing... yer thats true... but I could beat the face of an idiot with nothing but eldar guardians... if you are so much better than your opponent then you can compensate for your list but Jeske assumes that he needs to be ready to face people of equal skill and that they will have taken "optimal" armies. The closest this really comes to making a difference is meta-game... recently I've heard of Necrons doing ok at a few events due to Melta spam going oh crap Monoliths... so yes sometimes due to metagame certain units become strong and if that makes the army as a whole really strong thats when you start seeing changes in the meta-game... and Necrons are weak at other points so while monoliths gave a lot of lists problems they did not stop the best players with the "best" lists.

 

& anyone who mentions luck gets shot...

 

Short summary... yes you can win with terminators... however they often require a significant investment in points or list construction chaos terminators are inferior to loyalist Tactical and Assault Terminators in their respective areas and work best in CQC with combi-weapons although the right Icon can boost their performance (costing more points). Because of this termicide is the favoured tactic of many chaos players. Use terminators in other ways if you wish but Jeske is saying all things being equal you can get more for your points elsewhere.

 

If you have your own special meta in the area then yes tailor but on the internet unless you specify the situation you will get general advice and that will often end with use a vindicator or three.

[Zhukov]

with all respect jeske this is the main reason i dont like posting on online boards.. you come across with this attitude that if it hasnt worked for you then it doesnt work full stop..

but the world is alot bigger than you my friend.. if others say it has worked then id like to hear more from them without all the negativity.

As far as I know, he doesnt only talk from his own experience alone. When he talks about 'testing' units or builds, he talks about the testing of a lot of people combined. Testing from a group of people, who test stuff against a lot of different other armies which are played by good people too. Does this make a difference? Yes I think it does. Thats one of the things why I value Jeske his opinion as very reliable at least, most other people actually only talk from their personal experience only. Jeske does that + more.

 

This doesnt mean you have to believe him or something like that, but he seems to be on the receiving end of a lot of criticism. It would be nice to see if the people could try to appreciate him a bit more maybe. (or at least respecting his opinion) This goes for things in life too: try to focus on the benefit, while trying to 'ignore' the drawbacks. A lot of people their view is too negative, which is a shame.

[greatcrusade08]

with all respect jeske this is the main reason i dont like posting on online boards.. you come across with this attitude that if it hasnt worked for you then it doesnt work full stop..

but the world is alot bigger than you my friend.. if others say it has worked then id like to hear more from them without all the negativity.

As far as I know, he doesnt only talk from his own experience alone. When he talks about 'testing' units or builds, he talks about the testing of a lot of people combined. Testing from a group of people, who test stuff against a lot of different other armies which are played by good people too. Does this make a difference? Yes I think it does. Thats one of the things why I value Jeske his opinion as very reliable at least, most other people actually only talk from their personal experience only. Jeske does that + more.

 

This doesnt mean you have to believe him or something like that, but he seems to be on the receiving end of a lot of criticism. It would be nice to see if the people could try to appreciate him a bit more maybe. (or at least respecting his opinion) This goes for things in life too: try to focus on the benefit, while trying to 'ignore' the drawbacks. A lot of people their view is too negative, which is a shame.

 

 

its not that i dont appreciate his opinion, of course i give it weight, hes a successful tourney player.. what bothers me as stated above is the "i know everything" attitude.

thats honestly why he gets criticised.

perhaps its the language barrier, perhaps not.. you cant help first (and second and third) impressions

 

now i should apologise to jeske if i made it sound like his opinion carries no weight, but you can give an opinion without making it sound like its the only one that matters

[Cornelias]

it's not really what he says that gets peoples back up though, it's how he says it, he has a really bad attitude and come over pretty aggressive in most posts.

the language barrier isn't really an excuse as his english is actually pretty good and he points out stuff with mostly the same reasoning as yourself Zhukov and many others. you don't face the same level of criticism over your posts.

 

but as people have pointed out just because a unit isn't as effective as another doesn't necessarily make it a bad choice and sometimes people just want to do things a bit differently, even if it is somewhat of a handicap as dealing with the shortcomings or added challenges of using them can be enjoyable.

 

i'm not saying build a force at 1500 points consisting of TS's, spawn, possessed and dreads and it'll be challenging and enjoyable but for example if your playing at 1750-1850 points you can throw together a solid 1500 base and add a wildcard unit or two just for kicks and still be able to win a game. obviously if your playing a tournament game or grudge match etc then your best leaving your wildcards at home but if it's against your mates, people newish to the game or just a random game at your local club then where is the harm?

[greatcrusade08]

i actually disagree with several points about the 'metagame'

if only choices x, y and z work best then everyone will be running the same armies at the highest level.. if everyone runs the same/similar armies then beating them becomes a little easier.

by throwing a few unusual choices into the mix you make your opponent work a bit harder for victory.

 

just my 0.02