Declaring weapons firing

[Phosis]

Hi. I was playing a game and there was a bunch of sternguard dropping in, who insisted that one of my Rhinos simply should not survive.

 

Each Sternguard had a combi-plasma, and the sergeant had a combi melta. That makes for 9 combi plasmas.

 

My opponent said "Okay, I am going to pop all the plasma and shoot this rhino. I want to save the combi-melta for your obliterators which may or may not deepstrike in soon."

 

So he did absolutely jack to the rhino, and I had a whole safe squad of Thousand Sons inside it.

 

He asked if he could go ahead and fire the combi melta since the plasmas didnt do the trick, since he declared that only the plasmas would be fired at the target. I encouraged him to go right ahead (I don't care about little things like that during a game).

 

But I do care after. What if a person wanted to fire 10 combi-meltas at a land raider, but only wanted to use what would get the job done? I.E., fire them one at a time until it is dead, possibly saving a few combi-meltas in the process?

 

Example: "I'm shooting this combi-melta. Ok that didn't work. Here's the 2nd. Ok that worked. Now I have 8 combi-meltas left for the battle."

 

Can anyone throw their thoughts into this? I am unclear how strict things like this are, and the thought never occurred to me before.

 

Edit: Just to clarify, this discussion after-game was with a good friend who I play with a couple times each week, and neither of us were trying to take advantage of some silly rule. :D Just good fun.

[Jakobus]

I'd say that you should be declaring all your shots at the same time. with the unit following the "Shooting Sequence" on p15. Declaring which weapons will be fired before checking the range.

[Seahawk]

Short answer is no, you cannot choose one at a time. Page 16 under "Which Models can Fire?" says you may choose not to fire with certain models and not others, and it says all the models in a unit fire at the same time. The Shooting Sequence does not detail model by model, but instead unit by unit. So all hits have to be rolled at once; you may choose to roll one die at a time to slow the game down, but you still must finish all the unit's rolls to hit before moving on to anything else such as wounding or penetrating.

[Acebaur]

All shooting from one unit is considered simultaneous so if he only declares the plasmas then that's all he gets. Otherwise things like Dreads with MM/HF could pop a transport with their MM and then flame the squad inside.

[Phosis]

Thank you sincerely for the replies :]

[Hellios]

Even long fangs that can split targets must declare what they are shooting at... so I can't say fire my lascannons at a rhino and then my plasma-cannons at the squad inside (because when I delcared the squad wouldn't be there)... I could however target marines near by ^^

[Phosis]

Good point to add Mr. Hellios

[thade]

This seems covered, but just to reiterate: all models in a squad fire simultaneously and must fire at the same unit. The Rhino and the unit inside of it are two different units, and he can't trace LOS to the unit inside to declare it a target while they're still inside of it. So The way he called it by only firing the combi plasmas, he would not then be able to shoot what was inside with that same unit.

 

A second unit to fire after his sternguard could, provided the target unit was forced to disembark the Rhino.

[Leonaides]

But the intention was never to fire at the unit inside. The intention, if i read it right, was to use the minimum nomber of 1 shot weapons to achieve the desired result, thus saving them for later in the battle where they may be more needed. And for the record, no - you cant do it that way. Declare your targets, declare who's shooting what, roll dice. You dont get to only fire 3 out of 5 declared as firing becuse those 3 have already destroyed the target, nor can you decide to fire 7 because the first 5 failed to destroy it.

[nurglez]

Another slight point, is vehicles, my friend's leman russ with 3 heavy bolters. He generally fires the battle cannon first and we forget to determine if he is shooting the h bolters, so when he gets a good hit with his battle cannon and then gets round to his bolters, we normally assume he would be firing them, funny cos it ends up with me hoping he hits and wounds and him hoping the opposite!

[Phosis]

We need people like you guys at my store.

[thade]

OH did I misunderstand the question?

 

If the question was "Does he have to use all of the combi- weapons when he fires one", the answer is no. He can have one model with a combi-plasma fire his combi-shot, and every other model in the squad fire their bolters or even sit on their thumbs if he wants them to.

 

Sorry if I confused you.

[Isiah]

:D thade this was the issue a hand:

 

My opponent said "Okay, I am going to pop all the plasma and shoot this rhino. I want to save the combi-melta for your obliterators which may or may not deepstrike in soon."

 

The issue being the combi-plasmas did no damage, so he then wanted to have a go with his combi-melta too despite previously declaring it'd be firing at something else later. Obviously he can only fire the weapons he declared he would and can't then add another weapon not previously declared as firing at that particular target at that time.

 

Cheers

I

[narf]

The only way he could choose to fire with part of the squad and then pick targets with the other part of the squad is if they combat squaded from a drop pod.

 

At that point the squads are treated as two separate units, and it is usually the best option if you want to make sure you can pop an tank and hose the unit inside.

 

With what you stated he has already chosen what will fire as it is one squad firiong and he could not then add more shots if the first shots failed

[thade]

;) thade this was the issue a hand:

 

My opponent said "Okay, I am going to pop all the plasma and shoot this rhino. I want to save the combi-melta for your obliterators which may or may not deepstrike in soon."

 

The issue being the combi-plasmas did no damage, so he then wanted to have a go with his combi-melta too despite previously declaring it'd be firing at something else later. Obviously he can only fire the weapons he declared he would and can't then add another weapon not previously declared as firing at that particular target at that time.

 

Cheers

I

 

See, that's what I thought! Dammit. I have to stop posting before I finish my coffee. (Which I am doing right now.)

 

The only power-armored units I know of that can do anything like this are Space Wolf Longfangs (which can split fire if the sergeant is alive) and Land Raiders (via PotMS). Sternguard certainly cannot split their fire, and thus the entire unit must fire at the same declared target. Just the way the game works.

[Leonaides]

Sorry, still not quite there old bean...

 

He's not trying to split fire - but to decide 1/2 way though firing if he can add more weapons after he's already said that he isnt firing them because he didnt kill what he wanted.

 

Take combi-flamers vs Termagants for example - I say I'm firing 3 of 5 combi-flamers at a unti but fail to kill them all (i need to kill them cos its turn 4 and they would be in a position to contest an objective if I dont). Can I then, having already declared what I will fire, decide to fire the other 2 flamers? I'd say no, as I've already declared that I am only firing 3.

[nurglez]

yes, that was the point, 1 squad against a rhino, he shot all apart from 1, saving it for later, failed with the first shots and wanted to shoot the second even though he had said before shooting.

[Hellios]

Sorry, still not quite there old bean...

 

He's not trying to split fire - but to decide 1/2 way though firing if he can add more weapons after he's already said that he isnt firing them because he didnt kill what he wanted.

 

Take combi-flamers vs Termagants for example - I say I'm firing 3 of 5 combi-flamers at a unti but fail to kill them all (i need to kill them cos its turn 4 and they would be in a position to contest an objective if I dont). Can I then, having already declared what I will fire, decide to fire the other 2 flamers? I'd say no, as I've already declared that I am only firing 3.

 

 

yes, that was the point, 1 squad against a rhino, he shot all apart from 1, saving it for later, failed with the first shots and wanted to shoot the second even though he had said before shooting.

 

This can also go the other way if people don't declare that they are firing everything (if someone is silent I assume they intend to fire everything) kill stuff with the first set of combi-weapons and then not fire the second set to save them... although they did intend to fire them. so it is worth asking what people intend to fire.

 

and the answer is once you've delcared and rolled you can't change your mind unless your opponent is really nice :D

[ShinyRhino]

Another slight point, is vehicles, my friend's leman russ with 3 heavy bolters. He generally fires the battle cannon first and we forget to determine if he is shooting the h bolters, so when he gets a good hit with his battle cannon and then gets round to his bolters, we normally assume he would be firing them, funny cos it ends up with me hoping he hits and wounds and him hoping the opposite!

 

I find this to be an issue with a lot of Guard players. They get all hopped up on pie plates firing those Demolisher cannons, get giddy, and have you start making saves/removing models and then do the whole "Oh, wait! My heavy stubber and sponsons!"

I grumble, replace the models I'd removed, and wait for them to fire a bunch of sponson weapons. :)