NO BLOOD - NO FOUL! Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 I was just wondering how and when Khorne became Angron’s sole sponsor? Of the other three chaos gods it’s well know how and when they made Mortarion, Magnus and Fulgrim their own. To a point all three of them were tricked/forced to follow their God. But when it comes to Angron it almost seems as if his legion just automatically steered towards Khorne, no questions asked. Still at a certain point Khorne must have made himself known to Angron and made him an accomplice to his cause. Or was it Horus who set the two of them up on a blind date? :( Anyways I haven’t come across anything in the newer background, but thought it might be mentioned in the older writings. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Terra Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 If I recall somewhere in the 2nd or 3rd HH book Angron and Khârn made an appearence with some of the other primarchs and Horus and Angron and Khârn were largely sane and restrained (and I would say still loyal). Towards the end of that scene Horus takes Angron aside for a private word. When we next see Angron it's on Istvaan getting stuck into the loyalist elements in his own legion. We don't find out what Horus says to Angron to make him turn. I'm not sure at this point if Angron had already turned to Khorne or he was just in rebellion and had yet to be approached by Khorne as it were or tricked into worshipping him. I think there was a passage on Istvaan where Khârn in his bloodlust rants about "the Eight Fold Path", I think, so if that's to be taken as canon it's quite likely Angron had fallen to Chaos at Istvaan. Others with better memories will correct any ridiculous errors I may have made. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2536425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galdegir Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 But when it comes to Angron it almost seems as if his legion just automatically steered towards Khorne, no questions asked. Yeah, every time I think about World Eaters, Khorne comes to mind -they are inseparable for me. They were probably following Khorne from the beginning, they just didn't know it <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2536466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badaboom Posted October 14, 2010 Share Posted October 14, 2010 I agree with Wrath of Terra, and I actually like that Angron had to be pushed to make him fall to Chaos; as all the traitor Primarchs, he already had an open door for Khorne, but he was still largely sane and loyal until Horus "enlighted" him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2536603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 That's a very good question. Without that much information to go on, I would say it would be perhaps closer to what the Emperor's Children went through rather than the Death Guard - i.e. a gradual transformation that suddenly found them tainted, rather than a sudden change into followers of chaos. There is an interesting snippet in the audio book 'Raven's Flight'. In it, Corax is musing over the nature of the World Eaters, and what they had become. He realises why they had turned, and concludes that part of the reason was to achieve a freedom from restraint. That they no longer had to control their urges and their nature, and they could lose themselves entirely in what they were designed to do and what they did best. The psycho-surgery introduced when Angron joined the legion was no doubt a large part of this, and pushed them further along the way. When had this happened? If you take this as a premise, going from the IA: Article (although I realise there is a possibility this will be ret-conned) during the 'Ghenna Scouring' the WE supposedly wiped out an entire planet's population. This was no doubt the point when they crossed the line, as it were. It also mentions at this point that the marines were already competing for the number of skulls they could take in battle (sound familiar? :teehee: ) No Blood No Foul - I agree with your OP, but I would say that rather than 'steering' the WE on that course, I think (as Galdegir has observed) that really there is something of an element of grey between what the legion were before and what they became after. Always used in the hardest of assaults by both the Emperor, and later Horus, in the same way as the Space Wolves there were times when the Great Crusade needed a blunt instrument - and this is when the World Eaters were employed. When absolute aggression and energy were needed and there was no other way, I would argue that the WE were designed as a tool that was already far too close to Khorne's ideal follower - the final introduction of Angron and the psycho surgery made them slightly more effective in that regard, and that was the nudge that pushed them over the edge. In crude terms, I view them as the most dangerous of attack dogs which was trained for such a purpose, let loose time and time again to kill. but then finally slipped it's leash. When it's owner tried to put it down, it retaliated and bit his hand :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2536660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge The Weak Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 They already made the criterea listed to be one of khornes followers, following khorne was a natural progression it probably just came as a thing to do. Spill blood and be rewarded, well they already do that! Don't forget those implants they have don't help. I think Horus had words with Angron to tell him why the loyalist marines were being given the honour to assualt first, as he is narrowminded and short sighted from blood lust and probably seen it as a dishonour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2536691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 Not like Angron already didn't like the Emperor at any rate. I doubt Horus needed to give him much convincing to turn, and once Horus let Angron's urges loose, the rest of his hyperaggressive, psychosurgically-indoctrinated Legionnaires followed suit. After that, they were pretty much lost to Khorne, whose nature they would have gravitated towards. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2536698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NO BLOOD - NO FOUL! Posted October 15, 2010 Author Share Posted October 15, 2010 I agree of all the traitor legions, the WE's fall from grace was probably the most natural. What I find typical is that of all the chaos gods, there is no record of Khorne contacting Angron. I guess one of the few clues of how it might have gone is in the Souldrinker series that shows the fall of sergeant Tellos. No Blood No Foul - I agree with your OP, but I would say that rather than 'steering' the WE on that course, I think (as Galdegir has observed) that really there is something of an element of grey between what the legion were before and what they became after. Always used in the hardest of assaults by both the Emperor, and later Horus, in the same way as the Space Wolves there were times when the Great Crusade needed a blunt instrument - and this is when the World Eaters were employed. When absolute aggression and energy were needed and there was no other way, I would argue that the WE were designed as a tool that was already far too close to Khorne's ideal follower - the final introduction of Angron and the psycho surgery made them slightly more effective in that regard, and that was the nudge that pushed them over the edge. It does set you thinking. The all-knowing Emperor knew about the Chaos gods and their close relationship with humanity. They already had teleported his 20 sons out of the Himalyan mountainlab. And yet still he let some of his sons walk the fine line towards the chaos side of things. He did warn both Magnus and Angron about their practices. But looking back he was far to lenient with his sons.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2536849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Terra Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 When had this happened? If you take this as a premise, going from the IA: Article (although I realise there is a possibility this will be ret-conned) during the 'Ghenna Scouring' the WE supposedly wiped out an entire planet's population. This was no doubt the point when they crossed the line, as it were. It also mentions at this point that the marines were already competing for the number of skulls they could take in battle (sound familiar? ;) ) Don't forget that at Istvaan when the Traitor Legions set about purging the Loyalist elements there were a large number of World Eaters on the planet who were Loyalists. This led to one of the best scenes in the series (I think anyway) when Angron and the traitor World Eaters disembark on the planet and attack the remaining Loyalists. Captain Erhlen of the World Eaters sees what Angron and his brothers have become and knows what the Emperor would require of him and attacks. The sheer balls that took. And let's not forget that the as the World Eaters seemed the closest to falling before the Heresy anyway that those who did manage to resist taking what seemed like such a short step are to be really admired I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2536882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badaboom Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 The sheer balls that took. Can someone be more devout to the Emperor than someone who willingly charges against Angron? :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2536995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 What I find typical is that of all the chaos gods, there is no record of Khorne contacting Angron. I guess one of the few clues of how it might have gone is in the Souldrinker series that shows the fall of sergeant Tellos. I don't recall any scenes of Tellos coming into contact with a follower of Khorne or receiving telepathic contact from a Khornate daemon or Khorne himself. I don't recall Tellos being reprimanded for over the top aggressive behavior either. One moment Tellos abandons the Soul Drinkers, the next we see him he's singing the praises of Khorne. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2537029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyear Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 The sheer balls that took. Can someone be more devout to the Emperor than someone who willingly charges against Angron? B) Someone who stands up to the Warmaster? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2537203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 I would say Angron and the WE started to worship Khorne after the Heresy, when they entered the EoT. Khorne was trying to lure Sanguinius during the heresy and i dont think Angron would have quickly went from son of the Emoeror to lap dog of Khorne so quickly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2537724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 The sheer balls that took. Can someone be more devout to the Emperor than someone who willingly charges against Angron? :D Someone who stands up to the Warmaster? Ollanius Pius. Now he had stones. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2537762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Terra Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 The sheer balls that took. Can someone be more devout to the Emperor than someone who willingly charges against Angron? :D Someone who stands up to the Warmaster? Ollanius Pius. Now he had stones. *Wipes tear from eye* Ollanius Pius, the bravest of them all. I'm sorry, I've got something in my eye... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2537794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 The sheer balls that took. Can someone be more devout to the Emperor than someone who willingly charges against Angron? :P Someone who stands up to the Warmaster? Ollanius Pius. Now he had stones. *Wipes tear from eye* Ollanius Pius, the bravest of them all. I'm sorry, I've got something in my eye... I've actually always had a problem with that story. How did he get on Horus's battlebarge? I mean, the Custodes going with the Emperor is a given, and Dorn would have probably brought some of his IF Terminators. But how did a common Imperial Army trooper find his way all the way into Horus's battlebarge? Much less the throne room? It could't have been an accident, the Emperor and his men teleported into the battle barge, and I can't think for the life of me how Pius could have gotten on the ship. I seriously doubt he wandered in the teleport room at the climax of the Heresy. But then again I always saw the whole, Pius/ Fist/ Custodes sacrificing themselves to be stupid. Horus stands over the corpse of Sanguinius, one of the Emperor's most favored sons and loudly proclaims he killed him with blood dripping from his talons. And yet the Emperor does not go full out. And then suddenly some mook appears and get's killed and the Emperor suddenly goes nuts on Horus? It makes no sense. I guess I could have kind of accepted the Custodes, seeing as the Emperor probably knew him well. But the Fist or Pius? Doubtful. and yes, I know the point was that susposedly it showed the Emperor that Horus had ''gone too far'' but really here. Horus just killed Sanguinius, he has the Four Gods powering him, he summoned huge hordes of daemons, burned Terra and his skin is armor is crawling with runes Chaos. The Emperor could not possibly be that stupid or blind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2537808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 Indeed, it's kind of like the "one more waffer?" Monthy Python sketch.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2537867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NO BLOOD - NO FOUL! Posted October 16, 2010 Author Share Posted October 16, 2010 I don't recall any scenes of Tellos coming into contact with a follower of Khorne or receiving telepathic contact from a Khornate daemon or Khorne himself. I don't recall Tellos being reprimanded for over the top aggressive behavior either. One moment Tellos abandons the Soul Drinkers, the next we see him he's singing the praises of Khorne. I seem to recall him starting to babble to himself, at least that's the way it seemed to others. But now I'm starting to doubt myself, so I'll have to check back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2537888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 I've actually always had a problem with that story. How did he get on Horus's battlebarge? He didn't. Back then, the fluff regarding Ollanius Pius was just a throwaway line mentioning "the assault on the Imperial Palace". The story and details (duel on the Vengeful Spirit + the IF Terminator) were added later. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2537920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Terra Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 I've actually always had a problem with that story. I read something way back in the mists of time that said the Emperor basically rounded up everyone around him when Horus' shields went down, no matter if they were primarch, custode or lowly Army trooper and immediately teleported up. The Emperor could well have been stunned into shock by seeing Sang's dead body but he didn't witness how he died. IIRC Horus used his newly-gifted Chaos powers to strip the flesh from Ollanius' body and consume his very soul. The Emperor actually witnessed that and realised that there was no return possible for Horus and that's when he went Super Saiyen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2537957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 The Emperor could well have been stunned into shock by seeing Sang's dead body but he didn't witness how he died. IIRC Horus used his newly-gifted Chaos powers to strip the flesh from Ollanius' body and consume his very soul. The Emperor actually witnessed that and realised that there was no return possible for Horus and that's when he went Super Saiyen. Again, I know that, but given prior evidence and the fact that Horus would have probably used those same magics against the Emperor I honesntly can't see how a soul as anchient and jaded as the Emperor's could even care. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2538146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Kezek Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 The Emperor lost Angron the moment he teleported him off his home world, and left his fellow gladiators to die. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2538268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Terra Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 The Emperor could well have been stunned into shock by seeing Sang's dead body but he didn't witness how he died. IIRC Horus used his newly-gifted Chaos powers to strip the flesh from Ollanius' body and consume his very soul. The Emperor actually witnessed that and realised that there was no return possible for Horus and that's when he went Super Saiyen. Again, I know that, but given prior evidence and the fact that Horus would have probably used those same magics against the Emperor I honesntly can't see how a soul as anchient and jaded as the Emperor's could even care. When the self-centred and jaded Emperor finally realised the pinnacle of his second most important project (after attempting to make a human webway) had utterly failed and he threw a giant tantrum...? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2538403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 The Emperor lost Angron the moment he teleported him off his home world, and left his fellow gladiators to die. It's actually quite a stirring scene when we read the part about Angron's Gladiator Scars, and the 'Battle Rope'; Cut yourself after every battle, in a linking chain; leave it to heal if you were victorious, fill it with dirt if you were defeated. The first time I ever had a Black link. It shall be my last link. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2538442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badaboom Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 Wasn´t Horus who adviced the Emperor to teleport Angron to safety instead of coming down to the planet and fight woth him side by side? Otherwise, I really do not understand why the Emperor did so, and why He teleported Angron to the War Hounds battlebarge like passing a hot potato! Angron was a frenzied primarch and he killed many of the higher officers before Khârn somehow managed to calm him down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213159-the-point-of-no-return-for-angron/#findComment-2538472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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