Night Lords

[Tycho6]

On the Lightning Tower CD the first story with Night Haunter - when is it set? Have the NL actually turned to Chaos, or just gone rogue? If the latter, when/how do they actually turn?

[Brother Nihm]

He destroyed Nostramo sometime in 826.M29.

[Legatus]

The clash with Dorn was shortly before the Heresy, at most a few months. The progression of events was like this:

 

- (pre heresy) Night Haunter clashes with Dorn and is momentarily detained before killing his guards and fleeing.

 

- (pre heresy) Night Haunter takes his Legion to Nostramo and destroys it.

 

- (pre heresy) Night Haunter takes his Legion on a rampage through imperial space, having the Night Lords kill and slaughter indiscriminately.

 

- (heresy) When the Emperor hears of teir atrocities, he orders Night Haunter to come to terra and be held accountable, but that is when the Heresy starts.

 

- (heresy) The Night Lords then quickly sided with Horus, and after a while started employing Chaos for their deeds.

[Pacific81]

I would recommend reading both Lord of the Night and Soul Hunter for a lot more background on the Legion, and if you can get hold of it the IA article. Although Soul Hunter is set in the 40k universe, it talks a great deal about Pre-Heresy events.

 

+1 on what Legatus has said, I would say the exact moment they decide they don't want to wave the Imperial flag any more is when the Emperor decides to hold them for account for atrocities they have committed during the crusade - this is why Night Haunter is in Dorn's custody. I won't go into any more detail, aside from recommending that if you want to know more I would definitely recommend reading Soul Hunter! :o

 

Although I believe most of them have probably got some kind of relationship with chaos, there are a fair few that haven't and it certainly wasn't the reason for them turning traitor as was the case with many of the Legions. And in the 41st millenium I think that many of them use chaos as a means to an end (the destruction of the Imperium) rather than an end in itself.

[DeadCell]

The Night Lords never really "turned", they just rebelled against the Emperor. It's (supposedly) coincidental of the timing of Kurze's mauling of Dorn and him going off the rails with the NL's coming with him, to Horus kick-starting the Heresy.

 

Kurze was far too unstable, and due to his Legion and his own speciality they were kept in the shadows so to speak, not just in tactics but in operation. They had no real laurels or celebrations in their honour, their work was horrible and generally against the Emperors pristine ideal he outwardly portrayed to the Imperium, the dirty little secret so to speak.

 

Due to Kurze's mental instability and nature he was always going to rebel at some point and it initially took off on their own motives, not as a siding with Horus, that came afterwards. He would have probably been hunted down and wiped out had the Heresy not kicked off and more pressing concerns being forced on him. As it turned out he ended up in Horus's fold after their rebellion.

 

Kurze was probably seen as the only failure of the Primarch Project by the Emperor.

[Legatus]

I would say the exact moment they decide they don't want to wave the Imperial flag any more is when the Emperor decides to hold them for account for atrocities they have committed during the crusade - this is why Night Haunter is in Dorn's custody.

That was not actually why he had a run in with Dorn. Dorn had confronted Night Haunter because Fulgrim had told him about Night Haunter's visions, and Dorn had issues with that. Night Haunter attacked Dorn and was detained, fleeing shortly thereafter and taking his Legion on a killing spree through Imperial space. That was when the Emperor got involved and tried to stop Night Haunter.

 

"Lord of the Night" unfortunately gives a very skewed perspective on the events, which does not correspond with the history that is described in the Index Astartes article. Throughout the book (and this is hardly a spoiler as it does not really have to do with the actual plot line of the book) the protagonist maintains the position that the Night Lords were not to blame, that they allways did what the Emperor asked of them, and that it was the Emperor who then betrayed them by trying to get rid of the Legion. Even after the protagonist is informed at the end of the book that his point of view was incorrect and that he had been misled about it, a lot of readers had already taken it as factual and were dismissing the explanation at the end of the book as a lie, and now believe the position held by the protagonist to be the Night Lords' actual background.

 

 

Edit:

Kurze was probably seen as the only failure of the Primarch Project by the Emperor.

Though, the Night Lords Index Astartes does not mention any reprimand from the Emperor prior to Night Haunters fall into madness, whereas the Word Bearers and the World Eaters are both described as being censured. With Night Haunter it was mainly his brothers who are described as noticing and disapproving of his extreme methods.

[DeadCell]

Edit:

Kurze was probably seen as the only failure of the Primarch Project by the Emperor.

Though, the Night Lords Index Astartes does not mention any reprimand from the Emperor prior to Night Haunters fall into madness, whereas the Word Bearers and the World Eaters are both described as being censured. With Night Haunter it was mainly his brothers who are described as noticing and disapproving of his extreme methods.

 

True, but not entirely my point. Lorgar and Angron were products of their enviroment.

 

 

Lorgar being brought up on Colchis, by a religious sect, gave him a zealous worship and dedication, Angron, a Slave Gladiator, was born and brought up in Blood and butchery.

Kurze was different, the "Conrad Kurze" half of him was seen as a harsh but fair ruler after he took the reigns of Nostadamo,, and became a fairy loving and commited Primarch to his legion, whereas the "Night Haunter" side to him was maliciously warped and animalistic since the day he was born, described as genuinely evil.

 

It was something he was seemingly born with that just couldn't be changed. In the same way Alpharious and Omegon was one soul in two bodies, Kurze and Night Haunter were two warring souls within one body. A fatal flaw that never would be able to be supressed or stopped.

[Legatus]

I dunno. What he was born with was his prescience, which tormented him all his life. What made him such a ruthless leader was his upbringing, though. He grew up alone on the streets of a world infested with crime. Even Jonson had eventually been found by civilised people and was properly educated. Night Haunter was still alone when he took reign over Nostramo and pacified it.

[DeadCell]

Kurze was definitely tailored by his upbringing too, or lack thereof, no doubt about that.

 

But there was definitely something inherinitely evil about him, his upbringing taught him the skills of Psychological Warfare and Fear Through Focus, but there was a genuine taste for malice and butchery on the "Night Haunter" side of him.

 

I forgot where I read it and it was a long time ago, I think an old White Dwarf, where under interrogation a Deamon posessing a Marine, in regards to Conrad Kurze quotes :

 

"One side was noble and just, the other half, the other half had felt the kiss of Chaos all his life."

[Legatus]

A lot of Primarchs had been touched by Chaos while in their incubator capsules, even loyalist ones like Sanguinius. That is no doubt where Night Haunters visions came from. But the Index Astartes describes Night Haunter growing up on Nostramo not as arbitrarily attacking people, but specifically attacking those who he felt were doing wrong, starting with small time criminals but soon going after crime bosses or corrupt officials. He was trying to bring order and peace to the world, but his methods were not only intimidating and scaring potential criminals but ordinary people as well. Even though his means are described as brutal, his ends were noble. He was harsh and uncompromising, but he had no desire to harm innocent people.

[Inquisitor Engel]

The clash with Dorn was shortly before the Heresy, at most a few months. The progression of events was like this:

 

- (pre heresy) Night Haunter clashes with Dorn and is momentarily detained before killing his guards and fleeing.

 

- (pre heresy) Night Haunter takes his Legion to Nostramo and destroys it.

 

- (pre heresy) Night Haunter takes his Legion on a rampage through imperial space, having the Night Lords kill and slaughter indiscriminately.

 

- (heresy) When the Emperor hears of their atrocities, he orders Night Haunter to come to terra and be held accountable, but that is when the Heresy starts.

 

- (heresy) The Night Lords then quickly sided with Horus, and after a while started employing Chaos for their deeds.

 

Between the Emperor calling them to account and siding with Horus there had to be a several-month period of Night Haunter cooling off or doing as he was told as Dorn sent them to bring Horus to account. For DORN to actually trust Night Haunter (even if there weren't many other options on the table) means he wasn't running around causing a ruckus.

 

I doubt Night Haunter was already "turned" (and Lord of the Night would have us believe that he never really did, but sided with Horus out of necessity) by the time he arrived at Isstvan. I have a sneaking suspicion that the eventual Night Lords book will shed some more light on who exactly swayed him to Horus' cause.

 

I've an interesting thought that Night Haunter might well have sided with the Loyalists initially, in an attempt to fight the future and go a small way to redeeming himself. Remember that despite his disagreements with the other Primarchs, Curze was genuinely distressed by his visions of betraying his father.

 

As long as Aaron Dembski-Bowen gets the Night Lords book under his wing, the happier I am.

[Legatus]

Between the Emperor calling them to account and siding with Horus there had to be a several-month period of Night Haunter cooling off or doing as he was told as Dorn sent them to bring Horus to account. For DORN to actually trust Night Haunter (even if there weren't many other options on the table) means he wasn't running around causing a ruckus.

 

I doubt Night Haunter was already "turned" (and Lord of the Night would have us believe that he never really did, but sided with Horus out of necessity) by the time he arrived at Isstvan.

According to several sources the Night Lords were not involved in the Istvaan battle. There are conflicting sources, though. Originally it were just the Sons of Horus against seven Legions sent to bring Horus down. The 2nd Edition Codex Chaos names the Iron Warriors, the Alpha Legion and the Emperor's Children as being among the four Legions that would then betray the three loyalists (I could not find a fourth mentioned in my quick check). The Iron Warriors and the Emperor's Children are also stated to have been on Istvaan V in their respective Index Astartes articles. The Index Astartes Iron Warriors though strangely lists the Iron Warriors, the Night Lords, the Word Bearers and the Alpha Legion (the four undivided Legions, basically) as having been the four Legions that openly turned on Istvaan V. The 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines lists the Iron Warriors, the Emperor's Children, the World Eaters and the Death Guard as the four Legions.

 

2nd Ed. Codex Chaos --> Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion, (unknown)

 

3rd Ed. IA Iron Warriors --> Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, Word Bearers

 

3rd Ed. IA Emperor's Children --> Emperor's Children, (unknown), (unknown), (unknown)

 

3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines --> Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard

 

However, the Black Library seems to go with a background that the Emperor's Children, the World Eaters and the Death Guard was already openly siding with Horus and being with him on Istvaan, where then seven other Legions are sent to fight against those four traitor Legions. In that continuity the Night Lords would probably have been one of the seven Legions, even though that would still not really make sense with their background with Dorn and the atrocities they had committed afterwards. In some of those Codex source, the Night Lords were not among the seven Legions sent against Horus.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Let's not forget the four Traitor Legions on Istvaan prior to the seven sent to punish them: Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, and the Sons of Horus. The Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, and Word Bearers were the Legions dispatched.

[Legatus]

Let's not forget the four Traitor Legions on Istvaan prior to the seven sent to punish them

As I said, in the 2nd to 3rd Edition background it seems to have been seven Legions vs. Horus' Legion. It was in the Black Library material, which Gav seems to have adopted for the 4th Edition Codex, where there were additional Legions sided with Horus before the seven Legions were dispatched.

 

From 2nd Editon Codex Chaos:

p. 9 - "After an almost fatal delay the Emperor finally ordered seven Legions of the Adeptus Astartes to destroy Horus and his rebels."

p. 15 - "The Emperor's Children were among the units assigned to crush Horus and his Rebel Chapters on Istvaan V."

(Yes, it says "Chapters".)

 

From 3rd Edition Index Astartes Emperor's Children:

"Upon hearing evidence of Horus's betrayal, the Emperor sent seven legions of Space Marines to challenge the Warmaster, if necessary to destroy him. The Emperor's Children were first to arrive in the Istvaan system, where Horus waited, and Fulgrim met Horus in person to demand he accounted for his actions."

 

From 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 5:

"As the first wave became pinned at the drop site, they attempted a breakout, only to discover that the four Legions of the second wave, listed in the Libra Historica as the Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Death Guard, had betrayed them."

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

There's definitely discrepencies between the various Codices and the Black Library's accounts. If we function under the assumption that the Horus Heresy series' canon trumps the Codices, then it at least clears up the Codex problems. Unfortunately, the Horus Heresy series places the Night Lords squarely into the seven that were dispatched to punish Horus' four, which throws a wrench into the timeline for the Night Haunter's betrayal, retreat and destruction of Nostramo, and the killing spree prior to the attack on Terra.

[Rising Chaos]

I've always found the Kruze/Night Haunter interesting cause in a way he embodies a lesser Horus. There was a good side and a bad side to him, but while the Kruze grappled with his dual personalities Horus embraced the taint of the Chaos gods. Another important thing to point out is that when Kruze does eventually die (via an imperial assassin) he doesn't put up a fight at all and seems to be expecting the assassin to arrive, almost as if he realized what he had done and simply wanted to end it all.

[isilvra]

I'd say it was a span of several years if not decades between Night Haunters confrontation with Dorn and the events of the Heresy. It certainly wasn't any earlier than 50 years before the Heresy and no later than the Ullanor crusade. Rogal Dorns actions are quite well documented between Ullanor and the start of the Heresy. It also must have happened long ago enough for Dorn to calm down a bit since he ordered the Night Lords to Istervaan V and a Night Lord psyker was present at the trial of Magnus the Red.

[DeadCell]

I've always found the Kruze/Night Haunter interesting cause in a way he embodies a lesser Horus. There was a good side and a bad side to him, but while the Kruze grappled with his dual personalities Horus embraced the taint of the Chaos gods. Another important thing to point out is that when Kruze does eventually die (via an imperial assassin) he doesn't put up a fight at all and seems to be expecting the assassin to arrive, almost as if he realized what he had done and simply wanted to end it all.

 

 

Kurze knows about M'Shen as she arrived on the edge of the system.

 

During the latter years of his life, with the other Legions gaining a distaste for the Night Lords methods and Kurze being repirmanded for actions the Emperor decreed he should take, He began to believe he was an expendable weapon. A tool to be used for specific purposes, its purpose to fulfill the needs of the Emperor and the Great Crusade. His methods were horrifying and even believed himself to be a monster but were altogether sanctioned by the Emperor because at the time it was deemed necessary.

 

His last words recorded were "Death is nothing compared to vindication".

 

He ordered the Night Lords to let the Assassin infiltrate and assassinate him to prove that he was right, He believed that he and the Night Lords were in the Emperors eyes, nothing more than a necessary and expendable evil.

[DeadCell]

A lot of Primarchs had been touched by Chaos while in their incubator capsules, even loyalist ones like Sanguinius. That is no doubt where Night Haunters visions came from. But the Index Astartes describes Night Haunter growing up on Nostramo not as arbitrarily attacking people, but specifically attacking those who he felt were doing wrong, starting with small time criminals but soon going after crime bosses or corrupt officials. He was trying to bring order and peace to the world, but his methods were not only intimidating and scaring potential criminals but ordinary people as well. Even though his means are described as brutal, his ends were noble. He was harsh and uncompromising, but he had no desire to harm innocent people.

 

 

Sanguinius gained Wings, Magnus gained Psychic powers, Kurze gained a sinister alter-ego. B-i-i-i-i-i-g dfference.

 

Kurze decided upon the death of criminals, Night Haunter decided on the methods, which always involved butchering and murdering. Same thing goes with the fight with Dorn, Kurze was the one who lost his temper, and when he did, the Night Haunter took over. He didn't just lose control and blacked out, he just let the other half take over as he always did.

[Legatus]

His methods were horrifying and even believed himself to be a monster but were altogether sanctioned by the Emperor because at the time it was deemed necessary.

 

His last words recorded were "Death is nothing compared to vindication".

 

He ordered the Night Lords to let the Assassin infiltrate and assassinate him to prove that he was right, He believed that he and the Night Lords were in the Emperors eyes, nothing more than a necessary and expendable evil.

That was not what Night Hauner was trying to prove. What he was trying to prove was that one need sto employ extreme and decisive measures to root out the evil forces. He had use such extreme measures all his life. In the end he himslef had become the greatest evil and left the Emperor no choice. The Emperor had to resort to extreme measures to get rid of this evil.

[DeadCell]

His methods were horrifying and even believed himself to be a monster but were altogether sanctioned by the Emperor because at the time it was deemed necessary.

 

His last words recorded were "Death is nothing compared to vindication".

 

He ordered the Night Lords to let the Assassin infiltrate and assassinate him to prove that he was right, He believed that he and the Night Lords were in the Emperors eyes, nothing more than a necessary and expendable evil.

That was not what Night Hauner was trying to prove. What he was trying to prove was that one need sto employ extreme and decisive measures to root out the evil forces. He had use such extreme measures all his life. In the end he himslef had become the greatest evil and left the Emperor no choice. The Emperor had to resort to extreme measures to get rid of this evil.

 

 

That's pretty much exactly what I just said.

 

He wasn't the greatest of evil, he was just the Emperors necessary evil. He used brutal, sometimes sadistic measures to fight what was descibed as "evil" and was allowed to continue doing so. The Night Lords at the time of the Heresy were the epitome of Psychological Warfare and brutality, an "evil" tool to fight evil, and when the time came for the Imperium to dispose of him, as he had always believed would happen due to having constant visions of his Father killing him, he saw an ironic justification in it.

 

The Imperium used a tool that Kurze would himself have used, proving that nothing he ever did was out of the line for the "hypocritical" Emperor / Imperium to do themselves. Death is nothing to vindication.

[Legatus]

I somehow got from your earlier description that Night Haunter saw himself as a neccessary evil but also expendable tool that was now being discarded, and that him being discarded was somehow what he saw vindicated. I don't think that any aspect of "expendability" had to do with it, so there may be a fine distinction between what you are trying to say and what I am. Kurzes point was not that the Emperor would throw him away when he was no longer needed.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

That was not what Night Hauner was trying to prove. What he was trying to prove was that one need sto employ extreme and decisive measures to root out the evil forces. He had use such extreme measures all his life. In the end he himslef had become the greatest evil and left the Emperor no choice. The Emperor had to resort to extreme measures to get rid of this evil.

 

This is correct. Kurze refused to be a scapegoat for events that were labelled atrocities but had been sanctioned by the highest authority. Not wanting to go down in disgrace led to his rebellion, and the rebellion led to the assassination attempts. By the time he stopped killing assassins and let M'Shen take his head, he had already been painted as the worst sort of monster by both Rogal Dorn (arguably the biggest suckup of all the Primarchs) and by the Imperial Palace, and his Legion had savaged entire worlds and turned to Horus' cause at Istvaan.

[DeadCell]

I think of all the Legions, the Night Lords would probably have been seen as somewhat expendable as a whole.

 

Kurze did the dirtiest of the dirty work, the kind of stuff that wouldn't be published as a victory in the annals of the Great Crusade. The things he and his Legions did would probably have caused outrage from general citizenship, and because of this I'm betting of all the Legions, Night Lords operations would have been the highest form of Classified.

 

Kurze was never going to change, he was highly unstable. Whereas other Primarches could be classed the same such as Angron they could at least be directed and steered in an acceptable direction. Kurze was a mental genius, he understood a living beings psyche and how to cripple it in ways that the Iron Warriors could take down a wall, or the Imperial Fists mounted a defence, Kurze took the same approach in the destruction of a beings mind and control of their fears.

 

After the Crusade would end, and there being no real purpose of the Astartes anymore, Kurze and the Night Lords would always have been held at arms length for the things they did and could still do, so it would have probably been for the best if they were "expended" during the Great Crusade instead of being allowed to lull around and be left to their own devices, with how highly dangerous, withdrawn and unstable they were.

 

If they could rebel so easily and go off on their own personal crusades when they had a clear direction of wars and campaigns they were supposed to be fighting, rather than going off and commiting genocide on a whole group of systems just because the Emperor pissed them off, then god knows what they would have done if they were removed of a purpose after the Crusade ended.

[Legatus]

OT:

Rogal Dorn (arguably the biggest suckup of all the Primarchs)

The Imperial Fist Index Astartes points out that Dorn was never asking any favours, though. When he was expected to fight in the crusade, he did that. When the Emperor placed the Imperial Fists in strategic reserve, he did that. When the Emperor took him back to Terra to guard the palace, he did that.