Night Lords

[Octavulg]

If they could rebel so easily and go off on their own personal crusades when they had a clear direction of wars and campaigns they were supposed to be fighting, rather than going off and commiting genocide on a whole group of systems just because the Emperor pissed them off, then god knows what they would have done if they were removed of a purpose after the Crusade ended.

 

The Great Crusade might have ended, but the idea that that would mean there were no more worlds to conquer is simply incorrect. It's a big galaxy - there would always be threats to throw the Night Lords at.

 

That, and the Night Lords could likely serve much of the role the Inquisition does today. At least in some of its military operations.

[Inquisitor Engel]

The Imperial Fist Index Astartes points out that Dorn was never asking any favours, though. When he was expected to fight in the crusade, he did that. When the Emperor placed the Imperial Fists in strategic reserve, he did that. When the Emperor took him back to Terra to guard the palace, he did that.

 

Word.

 

In that continuity the Night Lords would probably have been one of the seven Legions, even though that would still not really make sense with their background with Dorn and the atrocities they had committed afterwards. In some of those Codex source, the Night Lords were not among the seven Legions sent against Horus.

 

At the end of 'Fulgrim' and 'Galaxy in Flames,' the Night Lords are explicitly stated as being there, with Curze on the tall plinth with the other traitor Primarchs built to "end" the Crusade under Horus' command. Since the HH Novels supersede any of the earlier material, Curze was there, the Night Lords were there.

[Legatus]

I think of all the Legions, the Night Lords would probably have been seen as somewhat expendable as a whole.

Troublesome, perhaps, but not expendable. That was not their purpose. The Emperor did not tell the Primarchs how to lead their Legions. He did not order Angron, Mortarion or Night Haunter to be ruthless and uncompromising. That was how they were approaching warfare, and the Emperor did not demand of any of his Primarchs to fight in a certain way. Aside from the things Angrin and Lorgar were censured for, of course. And they were all educated in the Imperial military doctrine when they were found, obviously, but it was still a Primarchs decision how to lead his Legion.

 

 

Since the HH Novels supersede any of the earlier material

I'm not down with that. I have not read any of the Horus Heresy books. And if I wanted to, I would order them from the UK, as I do with other Black Library novels, but the fact is that the Horus Heresy books have only recently been translated and published over here and are not distributed by GW or Black Library themselves. You cannot go ahead and tell a local player that his Codex is incorrect because a novel he has not had access to and which was not officially sold by the local GW has somehow invalidated it.

You pay money for a Codex to get the rules but also the background for your faction. You pay money for a Black Library novel to be entertained. If the Black Library Novel is incorrect, you are still entertained. If the Codex is incorrect, that's practically fraud.

[Octavulg]

Furthermore, with the amount GW goes on about people making their own stuff up, and how nothing is really canon, nobody has to pay attention to anything if they don't want to. As long as it's a portrayal with some degree of official sanction, I doubt it really matters.

 

That said, I personally just rank things based on proximity to the Studio and width of distribution.

[DeadCell]

I think of all the Legions, the Night Lords would probably have been seen as somewhat expendable as a whole.

Troublesome, perhaps, but not expendable. That was not their purpose. The Emperor did not tell the Primarchs how to lead their Legions. He did not order Angron, Mortarion or Night Haunter to be ruthless and uncompromising. That was how they were approaching warfare, and the Emperor did not demand of any of his Primarchs to fight in a certain way. Aside from the things Angrin and Lorgar were censured for, of course. And they were all educated in the Imperial military doctrine when they were found, obviously, but it was still a Primarchs decision how to lead his Legion.

 

 

And out of all of them, Kurze was the only one who did not have full control over his Legion, nor did he even have full control over himself. Extermination or rebellion would not have been improbable for a legion such as the Night Lords after they no longer had a real use.

 

Kurze was definitely at the Drop-Site Massacre, He was sent to the Southern Fringe of the Galaxy to destroy and/or capture Mechanicum Forge Worlds IIRC.

[Octavulg]

Uh...Jonson didn't have full control over his Legion (though no one knew it at the time). Angron's Legion came with a bunch of ravening Berzerkers. Magnus' Legion would go on to turn 9/10 of themselves into automatons trying to stop the spread of mutation.

[DeadCell]

Uh...Jonson didn't have full control over his Legion (though no one knew it at the time). Angron's Legion came with a bunch of ravening Berzerkers. Magnus' Legion would go on to turn 9/10 of themselves into automatons trying to stop the spread of mutation.

 

 

Jonson had full control over his Legion with him, the ones sent back to Caliban had gone 50+ years of being apparantly forsaken by their Primarch and reverted to fighting for Caliban, I'd assume by that point they didn't even class themselves as Dark Angels.

The World Eaters were united in service to Angron, they may have been bloodthirsty beserkers but they served -him-.

The Thousand Sons who cast the Rubric were still in service to Magnus, they were the highest of the higher ups, and in Magnus's confined abscence Ahriman was basically in charge. A very shortsighted move in hindsight, but it was still done in service to Magnus and the Legion, despite him having no knowledge of it.

 

 

Alot of the newly recruited Night Lords were rapists and murderers who seized he chance to become astartes for personal gain and he slowly began to lose control of them. While under him, while he was there.

[Inquisitor Engel]

Since the HH Novels supersede any of the earlier material

I'm not down with that. I have not read any of the Horus Heresy books. And if I wanted to, I would order them from the UK, as I do with other Black Library novels, but the fact is that the Horus Heresy books have only recently been translated and published over here and are not distributed by GW or Black Library themselves. You cannot go ahead and tell a local player that his Codex is incorrect because a novel he has not had access to and which was not officially sold by the local GW has somehow invalidated it.

You pay money for a Codex to get the rules but also the background for your faction. You pay money for a Black Library novel to be entertained. If the Black Library Novel is incorrect, you are still entertained. If the Codex is incorrect, that's practically fraud.

 

I understand where you're coming from, but the last time I visited the studio (April 2009) the official studio stance was the the Horus Heresy series was canon and that is to be taken into consideration when background for Codices are being written.

 

Generally, GW has a 'pick and choose' when it comes to canon status of BL books since some of them are written by people who don't work always 'in Universe,' but you have things like Auric being thrown into the current Eldar 'dex as a throwaway mention and Lucius the Eternal going into the HH books as a significant character. Things flow both ways.

 

Regardless of whether you LIKE it or not, it's a connected world and the vast majority of people you're going to be talking to have read the books and whilst we as gamers can debate the differences therein, the fact is that what's described in the HH books is going to be in the next Chaos Codex. GW works on their schedule with their material.

[Pacific81]

Legatus! It's like Groundhog day with this discussion again :lol:

 

Basically there was quite a large announcement at Gencon in 09 from Merrett, Abnett and McNeil, that for the purposes of the Heresy only, the books can be considered canon for what events transpired. Of course, there are still shades of grey involved - the authors themselves have said that the events themselves are deeply subjective, with the term 'holographic storytelling', the slightly pretentious way of saying that an event can seem different from another perspective - A thousand Sons and the forthcoming Prospero Burns is perhaps the perfect example of this.

 

But despite this subjectivity, there are certain things we can take away as more than likely being certain - when building a miniature force, or for discussions like this, and say; Well yes, that's most likely the case. The account of Galaxy in Flames for example - the 'relief' forces of 4 legions which come to back up the Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands who have come to confront Horus' forces: Probably one of the key moments in the Heresy, and one of Horus' tactical masterstrokes that effectively destroyed the fighting power of 3 legions, and made the future look extremely grim for the loyalist forces.

 

Legatus, I really wish I was living in the UK at the moment, I would sort out posting some of the books to you!

 

If the Codex is incorrect, that's practically fraud.

 

Keep it in perspective mate, we're talking about a fictional universe here, and events that were previously given the odd paragraph in the blurb of the codex before Collected Visions came along.

When the codex was written, the author obviously thought the information was accurate. But we've now got practically any entire section of GW's business concentrating on fleshing-out something that was previously consigned to a handful of pages in codex material into what will eventually be dozens of books telling a story about what happened. It's the reason 'The Horus Heresy' has it's own section on B&C (and entire forums dedicated to it), and a substantial number of players are making armies which are seeking to represent that era (and FW have released a range of miniatures catering to that demand, even though GW have gone on record to say that they won't release any specific '30k' labelled material).

[Legatus]

As far as I know, having been told by someone working for BL not long ago, GW's own position (not "official" because they are not openly anouncing it) is that there is no canon. Everything written about the GW universe is just "out there" and it is up to players to decide which bits they like and go with and which they don't like. Personally I find that to be a terrible policy, and for all the encouragement they might want to give players to start their own armies and write about them, there should be some "canonical" facts. So really, from the moment I learned that on, when I say "canon" I basically mean "what every player owning at least the Codex or previous source books should know".

[Ubermensch Commander]

Uh...Jonson didn't have full control over his Legion (though no one knew it at the time). Angron's Legion came with a bunch of ravening Berzerkers. Magnus' Legion would go on to turn 9/10 of themselves into automatons trying to stop the spread of mutation.

 

 

Jonson had full control over his Legion with him, the ones sent back to Caliban had gone 50+ years of being apparantly forsaken by their Primarch and reverted to fighting for Caliban, I'd assume by that point they didn't even class themselves as Dark Angels.

The World Eaters were united in service to Angron, they may have been bloodthirsty beserkers but they served -him-.

The Thousand Sons who cast the Rubric were still in service to Magnus, they were the highest of the higher ups, and in Magnus's confined abscence Ahriman was basically in charge. A very shortsighted move in hindsight, but it was still done in service to Magnus and the Legion, despite him having no knowledge of it.

 

 

Alot of the newly recruited Night Lords were rapists and murderers who seized he chance to become astartes for personal gain and he slowly began to lose control of them. While under him, while he was there.

 

Read the second Dark Angels HH book. Still clearly Dark Angels. Another example of a divided Legion.

 

You mean except for the loyalist elements of the World Eaters that served the Emperor and fought on Istvaan? Angron could not control himself, much less his Legion. INSERT THE CRAZY SCREWS!! WHEEE!

 

We have several instances of the Emperor censuring Legions but no evidence of any of them being expendable.

Even Magnus and his Thousand Sons were supposed to have been brought back in chains and disbanded after their crime, not wiped off the face of the cosmos like excrement from a boot.

 

Back on topic, it is hard to say when Night Haunter first "turned" to Chaos or at the least rebelled against his liege lord and father. Likely when he assaulted Dorn and heard of the Heresy. Nightmare visions coming true and all that. Probably made him snap...errr...snap even further.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

The Night Lords turned traitor when they followed their Primarchs orders to blow up their home world of Nostramo. Their inclusion in the relief force or back up to Istvaan V is a different matter. Were they there? Yes. Why were they there even after they turned traitor........ Because Dorn was working for Horus.

[Pacific81]

Haha.. please support that rather far-fetched conclusion Lord Walker! :)

 

Wasn't it at that time that even though they needed reigning in, it was still thought that the legion was trustworthy?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Haha.. please support that rather far-fetched conclusion Lord Walker! B)

 

Wasn't it at that time that even though they needed reigning in, it was still thought that the legion was trustworthy?

 

You know me.... unsupported, out on a limb, far-fetched ideas. This about the Night Lords not Dorn but i have posted my ideas on threads that are about the IF. In short, Dorn's actions during the Heresy are very fishy. To send the Night Lords as a part of the force to Istvaan V is one of many head scratchers for me. Don knew better then anyone the Night Lords were rouge. The Night Haunter killed his Astartes who were guarding him. They killed their Home world. Dorn was in system when that happened. He was hunting for them for some time. Then he chooses to trust them? Who was out there to benefit from that bad idea? Horus thats who. In Nemesis i think it was Dorn who tipped Horus about the Assassins. In Blood Games Dorn was running a double agent type operation to Horus, with out the knowledge of the Custodes.

[Brother Ambroz]

You know me.... unsupported, out on a limb, far-fetched ideas. This about the Night Lords not Dorn but i have posted my ideas on threads that are about the IF. In short, Dorn's actions during the Heresy are very fishy. To send the Night Lords as a part of the force to Istvaan V is one of many head scratchers for me. Don knew better then anyone the Night Lords were rouge. The Night Haunter killed his Astartes who were guarding him. They killed their Home world. Dorn was in system when that happened. He was hunting for them for some time. Then he chooses to trust them? Who was out there to benefit from that bad idea? Horus thats who. In Nemesis i think it was Dorn who tipped Horus about the Assassins. In Blood Games Dorn was running a double agent type operation to Horus, with out the knowledge of the Custodes.

 

Hahahahaha. Those are some very valid points.......

[Legatus]

That's because the retcon of the Night Lords having been sent to Istvaan V was apparently done without a deeper knowledge of the Knight Lords' history. It is as simple as that, and was not intended to have Dorn make the decision to send an obviously rogue Legion to aid his brothers.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

That's because the retcon of the Night Lords having been sent to Istvaan V was apparently done without a deeper knowledge of the Knight Lords' history. It is as simple as that, and was not intended to have Dorn make the decision to send an obviously rogue Legion to aid his brothers.

 

I can understand why Dorn sent the Night Lords to confront Horus:

 

1) the Night Haunter was currently in the penalty box, but was thought to be loyal to the Emperor as opposed to Horus, who we all knew to be a traitor at that point.

2) Maybe Dorn hoped a blatant reminder of Imperial might would balance out the crazy factor of the NIght Lords, you know, make them think twice before going nuts again...

 

just a few random thoughts.

 

WLK

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

That's because the retcon of the Night Lords having been sent to Istvaan V was apparently done without a deeper knowledge of the Knight Lords' history. It is as simple as that, and was not intended to have Dorn make the decision to send an obviously rogue Legion to aid his brothers.

 

People seem to want to explain away Dorns behavior to bad writing or lack of understanding of the writers at BL. People really think that BL has no qualified editors or that the authors don't bother to read any of the other books. I can say when Loken's name was brought up to Dorn in Flight of the Eisenstein, Dorn did not know who he was talking about. He did not remember that he had Not only Watched Lokens closely while he was with the Luna Wolves but had nominated him to join the Mournival. After Loken joined the inner circle he pulled him aside to congratulate him and council him how important his new position was. People want to chalk this up to a misunderstanding with the authors. Not to see that something is wrong with Dorn's head. How could a Primarch forget some this important?

 

Why this can not be a mistake....

Writer's Commentary

 

And now the biggie…The Horus Heresy. When the idea of this was first suggested to me, I didn’t know quite what to feel. On the one hand I was being asked to write the second book of three in the opening trilogy of what had to be the biggest thing the Black Library had done to date, which was both immensely flattering and scary at the same time. On the other, I didn’t know whether opening such a legendary time up to novelisation was a good idea. Happily, such doubts were set aside when we had our first meeting on the subject in Black Library Towers. Myself, Dan Abnett and Ben Counter amongst others sat around a table with Black Library’s Marc Gascoigne and Lindsey Priestley to have a chat with Games Workshop background guru, Alan Merrett to talk all things Heresy-related.

 

It was a long day, with all manner of subjects covered and at the end of it all I was thoroughly inspired and couldn’t wait to get started. I knew I’d be writing the follow up to Dan Abnett’s book (a mouth-watering and terrifying prospect, let me tell you) though had already written ‘I must write this!’ next to my notes on the story of Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus…

 

We’d talked about all the things that made the time of the Great Crusade different from that of 40k and all the different ways we could make this series of books fundamentally ‘other’ than books set in the time of the Imperium we all know and love. I hastily began scribbling out my notes and working up ideas and characters for my book, as Dan began writing what was to become Horus Rising. As portions of Dan’s book came through, my trepidation in following in his footsteps grew with every page I read. Horus Rising wasn’t just a good book, it was a great book, and I hadn’t read anything as exciting in years. That excitement wasn’t as a result of any battles or fighting, but the sheer pleasure to be had in reading what had happened all those millennia ago. This walked, talked and breathed in a way no other books published by the Black Library ever had. If felt different, it felt real…and now I had to follow it up.

 

So I read Horus Rising again and again. I read it at least five or six times before I even put finger to keyboard, since I needed to know these characters as though they were my own. I needed to know how Ignace Karkasy and Euphrati Keeler spoke, what Mersadie Oliton or Garviel Loken would do in any given situation and, most important of all, how Horus had changed since the end of Horus Rising. That, for me, was one of the key issues in my book, for Dan had managed to turn everything I thought I knew about Horus on its head. In every piece of fiction or text I’d written for Games Workshop about Chaos, I’d talked about how Horus had spat on his oaths of loyalty and turned his back on the Emperor as though he were the most despicable cad, but now I was confronted by a Horus who was a great man, a true hero and a character I really liked! That was the genius of Horus Rising in my opinion, that it played with our expectations and made us re-evaluate what we thought we knew about the Warmaster.

 

After all this, I knew that I had a lot of work ahead of me. Not only did I have to make sure that the characters stayed true to what Dan had created, but I wanted to get all the incidental details he’d invented and get them into my book so that if felt like the second book in the trilogy rather than simply a book set at roughly the same time. During the writing of the book, Dan and I were in regular contact, via e-mail and phone to discuss various plot points, characters and to natter about the series as a whole. All of this was immensely helpful and I know that False Gods would be the poorer without the lines of communication remaining open during its writing.

 

@ http://www.graham-mcneill.com/novel.php?id=9

Given this level of cooperation i cant see mistakes like you suggest happing. This is no mistake due to retconning. It is a thought out effort to show parts of the Heresy that many wont like. Dorn was not himself at best or an out right traitor at worst.

[Marshal Rohr]

I say we just file this one away next to his theory about Iacton Cruze killing JFK and the Roswell event being the first noted use of the Jump Pack.

[nightlordsrock3564]

I forgot where I read it and it was a long time ago, I think an old White Dwarf, where under interrogation a Deamon posessing a Marine, in regards to Conrad Kurze quotes :

 

"One side was noble and just, the other half, the other half had felt the kiss of Chaos all his life."

 

The portion you are refering to is in "Lord of the Night" when zso sahaal was talking to krieg acerbus the daemon prince about Kurze being loyal till the end

[randian]

People want to chalk this up to a misunderstanding with the authors. Not to see that something is wrong with Dorn's head. How could a Primarch forget some this important?

Omitting simple error on the part of the authors, there is only one possibility: psychic tampering. Who could have done such a thing? The only known beings with sufficient power who are close enough to him to do so unobserved are the Emperor and Magnus. Neither have a visible motive. If Horus had the power to do it, he wouldn't have stopped at making Dorn forget, he would have made Dorn a willing traitor.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

People want to chalk this up to a misunderstanding with the authors. Not to see that something is wrong with Dorn's head. How could a Primarch forget some this important?

Omitting simple error on the part of the authors, there is only one possibility: psychic tampering. Who could have done such a thing? The only known beings with sufficient power who are close enough to him to do so unobserved are the Emperor and Magnus. Neither have a visible motive. If Horus had the power to do it, he wouldn't have stopped at making Dorn forget, he would have made Dorn a willing traitor.

 

 

I think Dorn Would be more valuable to Horus as a unwitting pawn then a out right ally. To have the number one Primarch in charge of the other side in your pocket is like having a Ace up your sleeve. Also if he is unwitting then maybe it would be hard for others to see through. I agree that it looks like psychic tampering. The one who i think is responsible is Fulgrim. Fulgrim had the opportunity. When Dorn was recovering from his beat down at the hands of the Night Haunter i think Fulgrim did something to Dorn's head. At the time this happened i think Fulgrim was already in league with Horus. A helpless Dorn and a traitor Fulgrim makes for a grate opportunity for Horus to stack the deck in his favor. I do understand that thus far there is not hard evidence that Fulgrim had any Psychic talent but he was a Primarch. We don't know the full extent of his talents. He might have also use something like Chemical brainwashing on Dorn. I think we will find out in time.

 

In the Lightning Tower, when Dorn spoke to Malcador on Terra about what it was he feared he went through a list of Primarchs. He said no to them all. Malcador had to remind him about Cruze. Some how he had completely forgot about him. When he was reminded of him he began to talk like a robot. Like he was in a trance. That he sent the Night Lords to Istvaan V and them forgot that their Primarch even existed is WAY fishy to me.

[Inquisitor Engel]

When Dorn was recovering from his beat down at the hands of the Night Haunter i think Fulgrim did something to Dorn's head. At the time this happened i think Fulgrim was already in league with Horus.

 

The events in Fulgrim clearly take place well after that incident and the book starts well before Fulgrim is corrupted.

 

That he sent the Night Lords to Istvaan V and them forgot that their Primarch even existed is WAY fishy to me.

 

Unless he wanted to place Curze in mortal danger in the first place...

[Vodunius]

Originally it were just the Sons of Horus against seven Legions sent to bring Horus down.

When you say 'originally' where exactly are you referring to? The earliest mention of Isstvan I know is Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness which stated that Horus corrupted the five chapters under his direct command but didn't specify which except that the Emperor's Children were one of the Isstvan V traitors. The following year Space Marine 1st edition reiterated that the initial rebellion was by Horus and the five chapters under his command but stated them to be the Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard and Thousand Sons with the Word Bearers, Night Lords, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors being the Isstvan V traitors - which is the same list as appears in the Iron Warriors IA* and the Black Library Horus Heresy books.

 

* which is the only IA to cover all of the legions, Black Library are certainly crap at fact checking but in this case I think the problem stems from the IA authors being no better: focusing too much on their own little bit of fluff and neglecting to check it fits in with the rest.

 

From 2nd Editon Codex Chaos:

p. 15 - "The Emperor's Children were among the units assigned to crush Horus and his Rebel Chapters on Istvaan V."

(Yes, it says "Chapters".)

 

I always took that to mean that the RT fluff still stood (it was that book where GW first adopted the modern Chapter/Legion divide where previously the words had been freely interchangeable, and there were several instances of them erroneously using chapter in the old way, in particular the Night Lords write-up described them as being the 8th Chapter of the 1st Founding I believe)

[ICHD?]

Sorry to go sort of Off Topic here, but I'm thinking of starting a Night Lords army, and I was wondering if using Summoned Daemons and Possessed would be out of character? IIRC they either replace a possessed limb with bionics or just kill themselves if they show signs.