Questions about the Predator

[Talhydras]

Hey!

 

So I am thinking about building a White Scars army, I already have a bunch of models, an even bigger bunch of converting ideas and I am really comfortable with painting so much white.

 

Anyway, as White Scars are, the army is really fast and everything has a transport, is on a bike or is equipped with a jump pack.

 

When it came to the Heavy Support slots, I was really unsure what to take.

 

The army consists of a lot of standard anti-infantry firepower (bolters, CCWs, etc.), but every squad has also something against armor (Meltaguns, pLASmabacks, etc.)

 

Using at least two of the HS slots I want to take a pair of Predators. The idea of using two Annihilators in a fluffy way (how weird does that sound?) without sponsons somehow attracts me, but...

 

1.) An Annihilator without sponsons comes in at 105 Points and has a better front armor value than a Rhino

2.) Anyway, a Razorback with TL Lascannon comes in at 75 Points, has the same weapons and costs 30 points less

 

is a better front armor value worth 30 points?

 

Now I have a few options:

 

I was thinking about equipping the Predators with HB sponsons, because that would make them a decent anti-infantry platform in case the Lasconnon is destroyed. But the loadout is weird and IMHO a little ineffective.

 

Or do I switch them into 2 Predator Destructor with HB Sponsons and equip all the Razorbacks with TL Lascannons (Instead Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)?

 

Still, the idea of 2 Annihilators without sponsons attracts me, because the fluff says so^^

 

What should I do? Go for the fluff or for the rules?

 

Thanks for your answers,

Talhydras

[Br0ther Rafen]

Well, while it is paifully expensive, i really don't like to just use the TW main gun by itself. i always feel like sponsons are the things which get the job done "good n' proppa". So i always like to go with the 200 point tri las. Still, main gun by itself is still useful. But in regards of the Razor, depends on how many points are available. Preds are what i prefer, but Razors are nice and cheap and, on top of all this, don't have to take FO slots, which is very useful.

So in larger games, take a pred, in smaller ones take a Razor.

 

P.S. last thing, i'd go Preds if your looking towards the fluffy side of the game.

[Lysimachus]

Bear in mind too that the Razorback is a Dedicated Transport, so you must have a squad that purchased it in the first place. Minimum that's a 5 man 90 pt Tac Squad.

 

Of course, if you've already got a squad without a ride kicking around in your list then you could buy it for them. But then having an untransported/unmobile squad in your list wouldn't be very White Scar-y either? :P

[Hellios]

I would certainly take sponsons because the points cost is to great for a predator to be destroyed or lose its weapon (50/50 on a pen, with an even greater chance of not being able to fire)... Obviously the tri-las pred is an option but if you want to keep points down the other option to look at is an auto-cannon turret with lascannon sponsons. On th move you have a choice of 2 auto-cannon shots or 1 lascannon shot and up to av12 I think I would favour the auto-cannon and if you sit still the auto-cannon can help up to and against AV13 and help give you a chance of putting a few more wounds on MCs... while the two lascannons have as much chance hitting once as a single twin-linked lascannon but could hit twice.

[Talhydras]

sure it would be un-White-Scar-y, but everything is meant to be an a more mobile basis, so the tanks are not... well, sitting behind sniping something.

 

The question is not WHAT I am going to take, because I am going to take BOTH.

The question is how the EQUIP them...

 

The Tri-Las Predator is way too expensive, so I basically have to decide between:

 

1.) 2 Annihilator w/o sponsons and 2 pLASmabacks (most fluffy and my choice right now, because I want a fluff-based army)

or

2.) 2 Annihilator w/ HB Sponsons (HB because they are so cheap and don't make the tank useless when a weapon is destroyed) and 2 pLASmabacks (a little less fluffy)

or

3.) 2 Destructor w/ HB Sponsons (Las Sponsons are no choice, because 60 points are too much...) and 2 TL Las Razorbacks (maybe the most obvious and cheapest choice, but the least fluffy of the options)

[Jackelope King]

Why is one kind of predator "fluffier" than another?

[Talhydras]

it is not, but with regard to the peculiarities of the White Scars...

 

Most often they use tanks w/o sponsons, so a tank with sponsons would be "unfluffier" than one without.

 

and if I have to decide between a Destructor or an Annihilator w/o sponsons, I cleary settle for the Annihilator^^

[chaplain belisarius]

surely the annihilator advances with the rest of the force but when battle starts it hangs back and covers the advance of all those bikers? just a thought ive had...hope it helped! :D

[Xeonic]

Sorry, I'm having trouble figuring out why you're willing to spend 45 pts on a single lascannon when you can get a pair of 60(30 pts apiece if my super keen grasp of mathamagicks has not failed me).

With the sponsons you also retain an autocannon which is helpful vs lightly armored or infantry targets, as a bonus.

 

The Las/HB combi is as effective as a dakka pred in most situations, as the accuracy and near sure killing power of the turreted las make up for the 2 shots of the AC. It will play exactly like a dakka pred, only will have a little more armor punching power when it has to shoot at armor. I don't feel the merits of this config are great when contrasted to the regular dakka pred.

 

Predators without sponsons are more mobile for sure, but honestly 105 is a lot of points to be spending on one lascannon IMO, even if it is twin-linked, espescially considering the 120 pt price cost the combi las/AC pred has with a boatload more firepower.

 

Have you considered just using land speeder typhoons for transport busting power?

[Jackelope King]

Now that I understand the question a little better...

 

Yes, skipping the sponsons does significantly reduce the effectiveness of a Predator.

 

Two main reasons:

1. Less Dakka. This one is the obvious one. Heavy Bolter Sponsons are dirt cheap, and tack 6 shots onto your Predator in a perfect world. It certainly helps put a dent in most squads on the cheap.
   
2. Lower Resilience. This one is less obvious, but let's do a quick comparison. The traditional Dakka Predator has an Autocannon Turret and 2x HB Sponsons, while a sponson-less Annihilator has just the TL-Las Cannon for 15 points more. If I score a "Weapon Destroyed" result on the former, it's effectiveness against light vehicles drops significantly, and its effectiveness against infantry drops moderately. If I score a "Weapon Destroyed" result on the latter, all its good for is tank-shocking. So while a sponson-less Annihilator can be knocked out on a glancing hit or a 4-6 on a penetrating hit, you need a 5-6 on a penetrating hit to do the same to a Dakka Pred. This is a little-realized weakness of single-weapon vehicles that needs to be accounted for when making an objective comparison.
   

At the end of the day, it's not as competitive. But if fluff demands it, and you'll have more fun playing a fluffy list... fun wins.

 

(If it were me, I'd probably be taking Razorbacks to fill the same role, and honestly, a Khan-on-foot list is one of the few lists where I think Assault Cannon Razorbacks might be able to work... but that's purely theoretical at this point :P)

[Talhydras]

Hey

 

Thanks for your answers!

 

Ok... I think I'll settle for a pair of Annihilators with HB sponsons now. I always thought of this combo as strange, but somehow now I think it can actually work. Plus 130 Points a tank are quite acceptable.

 

Razorbacks with Assault Cannons sound good, but I have one in my CF army and honestly: it's now always worth the 35 points. Most of the time the HBs are doing the job just as good, but sometimes rending can be a nice addition.

 

I guess I'll be using the LC/TL Plasma Razorbacks, as I've made a bunch of good experiences with this combo. Plus it's so... retro :)

[Ryjak]

If a sponsonless Predator counted as Fast, I'm sure people might actually consider fielding them this way.

 

Or if the Auto-cannon had sub-munitions...

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Codex marines should merely have to pay the extra what is it? 15-20 pts to get fast predators like blood angels do.

 

dumbest codex ever :ermm:

[Brother_Fatiswon]

if i was playing white scars and preds were in the list to take, i would take them with the Autocannon + Storm bolter, for 210 pts, that gives you x3 AV13 moving shields and if you can get your head around using the Tank shocking rules in your over all battle plan... and if you needed the fire power, you could wedge all 3, and focus fire all 6 Ac shots at a single unit

[Voltaire]

How are standard dakka preds unfluffy?

 

 

 

Better question: How are standard dakka preds expensive? They're like 120pts or something per auto-cannon, Las-sponson pred. Dakka pred.

 

 

 

Take two dakka preds for massive win.

[BearersOfSalvation]

How are standard dakka preds unfluffy?

 

Some people's idea of making 'fluffy' lists is to read through material for possible limitations, then follow those limitations. It doesn't really matter if the restrictions make sense in the context of the rules, it's just the way they like to roll. There was an old white scars list that said that WSs used predators with no sponsons for extra speed, so that's why he's considering any pred with sponsons unfluffy for white scares.

 

I think fluffy limitations are usually overdone, IMO you usually get better looking armies by focusing on what you DO take to make the list look like a particular army instead of what you don't.