Fast Attack or Heavy Support

[ImperialReaper]

Bretheren,

 

I am currently building an 1750Pts army list and I just cant decide where to get the anti-armor-punch from.

 

I am thinking about weather attack bikes with multi meltas or vidicators.

 

Bikes with meltas are cheap and mobile. The can turboboost 18" in - having an 3+ coversave afterwards. Next round they can move another 12" which can bring them into the back of an enemy vehicle and just melt it down. I would use all 3 slots with 3 squads consisting of 2 attack bikes each, every one with a multi melta.

 

Vindicators are expensive. But for blood Angels the have an effective fire range of 36" which is great. They also can kill pretty much everything, not only armor - but they do scatter and are not that reliable. They however mostly are a Nr. 1 target for your opponent and need protection.

 

Any thaughts on this?

[Erasmus of Baal]

For anti-armor spcificelly, I would vote Multi-Melta bikes. The Vindicator is very powerful and not to be underestimated in any case, but it's a much more well-rounded unit instead of specifically targeting vehicles. In either case, though, I think you should take three slots of each simply because it sounds like this is going to be the major anti-tank power in your force.

[Brother Nathan]

Both! multi meltas are effective, no dought, but can be easyish killpoints, and wont distract alot of fire that will be going at the rest of your force. id maby say go for 2 units of 2 and then go for a vindicator. the vindi can destroy pretymuch everything in the game, and as a result will distract alot of the opponents firpower as they know it. sure it can scatter, but ull not care that it occasionally misses when youv seen it hit something that must die.

[ImperialReaper]

Both! multi meltas are effective, no dought, but can be easyish killpoints, and wont distract alot of fire that will be going at the rest of your force. id maby say go for 2 units of 2 and then go for a vindicator. the vindi can destroy pretymuch everything in the game, and as a result will distract alot of the opponents firpower as they know it. sure it can scatter, but ull not care that it occasionally misses when youv seen it hit something that must die.

 

In my experience you have to field 3 vindicators or you just leave them at home. But fielding bikes and 3 vindicators would use up to much points - so I have to decide weahter it sahll be 3 squads of bikes, or 3 vindicators.

[Dingareth]

2 Squads of 2 Attacks bikes should be enough against heavy armor like Land Raiders and Russes; however, you still want to have Autocannons and Missile Launchers to take down light armor like Rhinos and Chimeras. Have you though about Land Speeders? 2 units of MM/HF and 2 Typhoons in a squadron can make a fair dent in armor.

 

Also, Predators or Dreads in your Heavy Choices can be very effective at popping light armor, more so than Vindicators for sure!

[princemigi]

I like the idea of 3 Vindicators. Their weapon can take out hordes, Marines and tanks a like. I seem to remember them also getting 2D6 armour penetration too, right? I might be making that up though.... Haha.

They might be more "well-rounded" but why is that a bad thing? If you field 3, the opponents AT will be split and all 3 will have a higher chance of survival and do more damage inturn.

With a MM Bike, you can take out all the tanks and then what? You can pop a guy here or there until they are wiped off the board.

Sure, Vindi's are known to be unreliable, but with fast and a pie plate that can tackle just about anything I think you might aswell give them a shot.

[WarpWalker]

Normally, it's important to ask for your a list. But everyone here knows it'll be fast anyway. I personally lean towards the bikes as I have only experience with. But if you are going to run a full mech army, you'll be able to give the vindies more cover than if you would run say...a jump pack army. Plus I feel you would have more synergy in a mech army with the vindies.

 

Bikes can hide better amongst cover, and pick off their intended targets. When all the tanks are gone I've gone MC/monster hunting with them.

 

 

Sorry I didn't give you a should or shouldn't answer. But I hope it helps anyway.

[Dingareth]

Sure, Vindi's are known to be unreliable, but with fast and a pie plate that can tackle just about anything I think you might aswell give them a shot.

 

Hmmmm, he's asking for competitive anti-tank and you recommend the unreliable course of action? That's some great advice there. You should check out the other thread in this sub forum about using Vindicators in an anti-tank role for more info.

[Redfinger]

I havent played bikes in a BA army so I am not sure how they work, but it seems to me that they may be a bit like a speeders, except that bikes seem like they could get into position better, but I wouldnt expect wither to surrive much past the round they attack, so I would ask myself is a 150 point(I think that is about what it would cost) sacrifice worth it at 1750? But then again I have never played BA bikes so I am not sure how well they could hold up.

 

Now that being said, it would be good to know what type of list you are running. Then proper suggestions could be made. If your list was not so dependent on speed then Dev squads w/ ML spam is a great choice, as are TLAC dreads, 3 of the would put out 12str 7 shots w/ reroll to misses. Against most armor that creates a rather nice supressing fire threat, remember an imobilized transport is just as useless as a destryoed one. If you want to keep things fast then AC preds could be good, or if you want to just camp them you cant beat the dakka pred...but that all depends on the list you have, right? Another option are 125 RAS sucide squads, but then you are back to the point value at 1750....

 

I am in kind of a similar stuation w/ my 1250 escalation list for a tourney that starts soon. I am going mech, I have 3 raz/TLAsC and 2 Baal w/ TLAsC. I was running two dreads w/ TLAC for a while but I found that they were getting isolated while I was out running circles w/ the armor in mid field. So I am thinking of dropping them but cant decide what for, preds bikes or speeders?

 

Anyway, let us know some list details, to help find the right option.

[DrummingBerserker21]

I've used both before, and my Vindicator's have NEVER made back their points, whereas my bikes have been the bane of my opponents armor. I've tried running the 3xVindicator set up as well, and everything scattered. That being said, I do for some reason have snipers manning lascannons (multiple 1st wreck/explosion results, including two Land Raiders!) so it might just be my luck. Don't forgot that with bikes you can shoot then assault something. While not very good against a dedicated CC unit, this will do wonders against something like Devastators or other heavy support infantry groups with the bikers two wounds and extra toughness. My vote would go for attack bikes mixed in with speeders as can both easily hold pace with any thing in your army, destroy vehicles, and are also good for late turn objective denial.

[Zeller]

Fast attack to destroy armor because fast attack is typically faster than armor therefore enemy armor can't run far for long.

 

Heavy support is for mulching troops or light armor in the case of rifleman dreads.

[ImperialReaper]

Have you though about Land Speeders? 2 units of MM/HF and 2 Typhoons in a squadron can make a fair dent in armor.

 

Also, Predators or Dreads in your Heavy Choices can be very effective at popping light armor, more so than Vindicators for sure!

 

I did run 3 Predators in my list before. But they are very expensive since I think they should alway get the two extra side weapons. Also the often received a crew stunned (cant shoot 1 turn) result when hit.

The next one is that is often fail to kill a land raider or those IG tanks which have 14 (or 13) on all sindes) with it. This made me think about what to use secificly against armor and IMO this has to be a melta since the 2D6 makes and AP1 makes live a lot easier.

 

Then I also thaught about land speeders. But in essence they are more expensive and cant make use of provided cover as good as bikes - as well as the lack of the great turboboost with following 3+ cover save.

They are a better weapon platform than an attack bike since it can have 2 MMs or 1 MM and the rockets. But to be able to shoot both weapons you can only move it 6" this turn. Those where the main reasons for me to give the advantage to the attack bikes.

 

Now that being said, it would be good to know what type of list you are running. Then proper suggestions could be made. If your list was not so dependent on speed then Dev squads w/ ML spam is a great choice, as are TLAC dreads, 3 of the would put out 12str 7 shots w/ reroll to misses. Against most armor that creates a rather nice supressing fire threat, remember an imobilized transport is just as useless as a destryoed one. If you want to keep things fast then AC preds could be good, or if you want to just camp them you cant beat the dakka pred...but that all depends on the list you have, right? Another option are 125 RAS sucide squads, but then you are back to the point value at 1750....

 

Well my list is not realy finished in deail right now - since it also depends on how I solve the anti-armor problem and how many points it will cost me.

But the key data should be:

Gabriel Seth with Honor Guard (5xPW) in a Razorback (weapons not yet chosen)

9x Assault Marines with Corbolo in a Rhino (1 Pw on the Seargent just has to be)

9x Assault Marines with a priest in a Rhino ( 1Pw on the Seargent and 1 on the priest)

2x Furioso Cybots with Claws and heavy flamer/melta in drop pods

 

The list should be an competitive all comers list - since I realized that changing your list every day just does not help - so now I want a decent all comers list which I an try to improve my skills with.

With bikes I could have some points left to put them into another scoring unit. With 3 vindicators I have a good chance of killing armor and I can also bomb objectives held by my opponent.

[SamaNagol]

Bikes are so cheap, you have no reason not to take 2 units of 2. And run them WITH Heavy Support choices.

[Black_Sky]

two units of 3 bikes, two multi melta bikes and a heavy bolter bike per squad. gives you more versatile firepower, and a place to put str8+ wounds without losing their primary function.

 

I would also recommend two typhoons with heavy bolters for long range anti light vehicle firepower. Again, the dual weapon systems gives them a fair ability to deal with both infantry and vehicles.

 

I am not a fan of dedicating vindicators as your sole ranged anti tank cababilities. They are a versatile weapon of war, equipped with a cannon effective against everything, which should be their role. as a heavy duty weapon to draw fire, and neutralize threats that would cripple the rest of your force, be it hordes, heavy infantry or vehicles. You really want to have the ability to lob shells at both the thunderwolves baring down on you, while stopping that land raider trundling alont towards you line at the same time. with a mere three demo cannons in your army, one shaken from the previous turn, really limits your options.

Were I you, I would take two bike squads and two demolishers, this should give you ample firepower to neuter most common threats.

[ImperialReaper]

Ok I made a few changes to my list and what came out was that if I field 2x2 attack bikes with multimeltas and 3 Vindicators I have to let go of brother corbolo and replace him with a standard priest. But what is realy grave is that I cant effort my 2 Furiosos any more.

 

I am not shure if this is worth the vindicators.

[SamaNagol]

2 Vindicators and 4 MM bikes is PLENTY

[Zealadin]

My favourite HS choice is squads of Devs with 4 ML's and a Sang Priest (naked) standing around for FNP, a few of these are cheap and nasty and handle armour, hordes, anything!

[Marshal Wilhelm]

You can hide ABikes behind Rhinos and Razors, then use the patented peek-a-boo move

 

ABikes benefit from the power [5+ cover save] and a Sang priests FNP?

 

Razors with a Priest and a Lib, and some ABikes hiding behind can move 12" per turn and fire to full effect.... :blush:

[shatter]

My favourite HS choice is squads of Devs with 4 ML's and a Sang Priest (naked) standing around for FNP, a few of these are cheap and nasty and handle armour, hordes, anything!

 

My favorite dev' load-out is still MLx2, LC, PC. Complexity for much the same role but with a stronger anti-elite leaning.

 

...and I like chargeadins! (lol)

[Wildfire]

I believe that attack bikes are quite clearly better for anti-tank. They can take more fire, are more mobile, shoot more, penetrate easier, shoot more accurately, and can hide easier. Now, they're not so good vs. infantry, but for anti-tank they cannot be beat by anything in the codex.