IA ++ Sand Dragons

[Consul of Scorpions]

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Star Dragons Space Marine + Pre-Schism

Origins

Eternal Crusade

Supplanted Motif

“In hoc signo vinces” In this sign, you will conquer -Closing of the Penitent Charter

The Sand Dragons were at one time known as the Star Dragons and borne only upon the ships of their fleet, before their ill-fated landing at Zazerus in the Tyre system. The Chapter has adopted a new name and colors as they have adopted a new home, but they still keep pieces of their armor black (left arm, pauldron, kneepad, and cheek) as a constant reminder of their unknown origins and the shame of their failure. The main of every marine’s right pauldron is painted red in emblem of the Chapter’s penitent crusade.

The Rout of Denethos Minor

“Principatus virum ostendit” Leadership proves the man -High Command Motto

Denethos was a Pre-Imperial civilization of significant technological advancement in the Gypres sector and a highly desired acquisition of the Martian Priesthood. A schism in the ranks of the Sand Dragons Chapter set in motion a chain of strategic losses that forced a system-wide sanction of Exterminatus and allowed the Chapter’s traitorous elements, fully an entire company’s worth of space marines, materiel, and the Chapter Master, to escape justice and sow discord in the Eastern Fringe. Having suffered a terrible loss of prestige, men, and resources, the Sand Dragons suffered the sanction of a Penitent Crusade to eradicate their traitorous brothers and take responsibility for pacifying the sector. One of the Chapter’s may pursuits ended when infiltrators aboard the Chapter Battlebarge ‘Mount of the Aquila’ crippled her maneuvering systems and forced the ancient vessel to crash land on the death world ‘Zazerus’.

Homeworld

Sands of Death

“Crescit in adversis virtus” Virtue is born in hardship -3rd Legion Motto

Zazerus is an isolated backwater near the Eastern Fringe known for little other than its deadly gravel storms and rich mineral deposits, namely dilute adamantium ore and a sturdy type of granite that resists even Zazerus’ erosive winds. A small enclave of Mechanicus priests are stationed on Zazerus’ only moon, Typhoeus, investigating its ambulatory flora. Veneration of the Emperor in this desolate place takes the form of a pair of cephalocanid deities. Setar represents aspects of evil and destruction, generally regarded as a pagan form of the Ruinous Powers; Setar is opposed by his younger brother, Anpu, the proxy of the Emperor, protector, and judge of the dead. The people of Zazerus have welcomed the Imperial Faith and rule of the Sand Dragons, declaring the Chapter to be sent by Anpu to protect them from Setar’s jealous fury. Zazerus’ people are astonishingly pure and free of deleterious or inhuman mutations, making a fine base of recruitment for the Sand Dragons Chapter, though the same cannot be said of those that have been exiled or raised in the vast stretches of desert wasteland outside of the hermetic city-states.

The planet is mostly covered by a sea of sand, the few volcanic mountains continuously growing as new material seeps out from Zazerus’ energetic mantle and old rock is sheered away by wind-borne grit. At its poles, amid dunes chilled to subzero temperatures, moisture falls from the sky in the form of razor-sharp sleet and is the only aboveground source of water on the planet. The holy cities of Cairn and Nehkara, vast necropoli housing the honored dead of Zazerus, these two city-states sit at either pole and serve to collect the regularly falling showers of sleet. The necropli are a place of the dead, but also beacons of life, as caravans make the trek into the polar wastelands to trade foodstuffs and crafts for the holy cities’ vast stores of water. Each city-state generally produces its own food, with the exception of the polar necropoli, and some produce bumper crops instead of the works of artisans with which to trade.

The Anpu people are hardy and have proven to be a stable source of recruits for the Sand Dragons Chapter, their pagan prescriptions of bodily purity, combined with the harsh environment, keeping the city-dwelling folk cleansed of most mutation and disease. The Space Marines themselves are seen as demigods in the eyes of the Anpu and many youths compete in festival events to display their strength, skill, and purity in the hopes of being selected as an initiate. Over the centuries, the Chapter’s dogma has shifted in line with the beliefs of the Anpu people; many rituals and blood rites have melded with both the Imperial Cult and the Chapter’s own practices.

Demons of the Wastes

“Suaviter in modo, fortiter in re” Gentle in manner, resolute in deed -Apothecarion Motto

Scholarly speculation that Setar represents the Anpu people’s version of Chaos is closer to the mark than its faculty knows. The desert wastes of Zazerus are infested with warp-beasts and other horrors, most feared are the legendary sand dragons, from whom the Chapter gets its name, whose flesh reforms like a blowing gale when cut by mortal weapons. Their bodies are said to contort like a dust devil, bringing claws and fangs of iron-hard glass to bear where before there was only grainy and impervious hide. The heart of a sand dragon is a valuable gemstone among the Anpu and a possession of great prestige, bringing one of these crystalline trophies to a Librarian of the Sand Dragons is said to all but guarantee admission into the chapter’s ranks.

In addition to unnatural beasts, nomadic mutant tribes eke out something akin to subsistence among the dune seas of Zazerus. Mutants are usually killed at birth among the Anpu people, though some are hidden by sympathetic parents, though they are inevitably found and cast out from the safety of the city’s walls. The tribes will sometimes assault the cities in a futile exercise of frustration and resentment, though they experience far more success raiding the merchant caravans and have grown a great deal from their plunder and slaves. Lately, a squad of Penitent Marines from the Chapter has begun scouring the sands of these bands of brigands and cultists, providing a measure of relief to the overwhelmed caravan bodyguards when the shrouded armor of the superhuman warriors appear out of the dusts to break a mutant assault.

Acolytes of the Setting Sun

“Aere perennius” Truer than steel -Armory Motto

It is said that Anpu resides in the underworld and protects the sun from the predations of Setar’s minions as it travels through the dead lands below the deepest earth and is reborn to bring the next day. A sect of cultists among the Anpu people worship Setar and work to bring about the Eternal Night where the armies under Setar’s command will rise forth from the shattered gates of the dead lands and roam the mortal realm to wreak havoc upon those who would dare show his younger brother, Anpu, favor over him. The rewards for those who aid Setar in claiming his rightful kingdom are great, but only a few among the faithful who betray their human kin will be rewarded, many more are ordained to fall to the blades of Anpu and his followers, and more still will be cast into the Abyss of the underworld to feed Setar’s hordes.

The rebirth of the soul is said to mirror the path of the Sun; if a man has been pure of heart and gone to his death with courage and dignity, he will arrive safe at the gates of the underworld. Those who are not virtuous are said to inevitably stray from the Sun’s guarded path through the Abyssal lands and consumed by Setar’s spoiled hordes. Though men may not be completely pure throughout their life, the act of following the Sun’s burning path into the citadel of Anpu and that of straying into the waiting teeth of Setar’s avaricious vassals is one of increments. As day becomes night a man may gradually work his way into evil places where, if the boundaries had been stark and the path lit by gleaming torches, he would never have strayed.

Those who venerate Setar in his various forms are told to have infiltrated the Sand Dragons Chapter, and their underhanded betrayal at Denethos Minor, known to the Anpu as ‘The Palace upon the Brightest Star’, brought about a major reordering of the Chapter and their arrival at Zazerus. The Rout also unleashed an entire company of newborn traitors on the Gypres sector. Zazerus and her surrounding worlds are the core of this simmering insurrection and a portion of the Chapter’s under-strength forces have been diverted from the crusade to claim the local sector in order to pacify the Chapter’s entrenched renegade elements.

Mount of the Aquila

“Per Ardua ad astra” Through adversity to the stars -Fleet Command Motto

The Chapter’s Fortress Monastery was once the venerable Battlebarge ‘Mount of the Aquila’ before it was forced to land on Zazerus and became mired in the billowing sands on the planet. During repairs to the hull around the drives, shipwrights discovered evidence that boarding craft of alien make had, at a previous time, delivered their cargo to the venerable warship; an uncomfortable answer to the riddle of how the ‘Mount’ was brought low at Zazerus that raised more questions than it had resolved. Within its armored halls, the ‘Aquila Mount’ bears many relics of the Chapter, especially the titanic idols located in the ship’s Main Promenade. Significant work has been done over the centuries, joining the halls of the ‘Mount’ to the planet’s bedrock, building new rooms out from the restored hull, and extending its many defences into a proper fortress complex; the ‘Mount of the Aquila’ is now almost unrecognizable as the mighty space-faring vessel it once served as.

Star Dragons Space Marine + Crusade Colors

Combat Doctrine

Wings of the Dragon

“Amat victoria curam” Victory likes careful preparation -2nd Legion Motto

Sand Dragon assaults are often supported heavily by Fleet Command and are comprised of a greater number of skimmer craft than is typical. The Chapter disdains a ground-based assault and prefers to strike from above in most cases. However, due to their low numbers of fully initiated battle brothers, the Sand Dragons are loath to commit to a drop pod landing, mostly because it is more visible than a mechanised formation even though the deployment happens much faster, which strikes against the Chapter’s favor of stealth and infiltration.

Mechanised advances and drop pod assaults are frequently used as diversions, however, to draw strategic focus away from the Chapter’s true objectives, which are led by less conspicuous advance elements supported by fleet elements and sometimes accomplished solely by neophyte scout squads. Part of the Chapter’s peculiar favor for Thunderhawk insertions has a great deal to do with their failure at Denethos Minor where advance elements had deployed conventionally for some time and waited for their traitorous brethren to insert on top of several crucial bottlenecks once the foe had been baited out of their underground fortress bastion. Instead, Thunderhawks supposedly carrying supplies dropped megaton-yield warheads on the entrenched Star Dragons and a strike cruiser carrying the former Chapter Master performed a low-orbit attack run after the fusion warheads had cracked open his brothers’ hardened position, decimating the Star Dragons’ originally formidable numbers.

Organization

The Four Cohorts

“Mente et manu” With mind and hand -Librarium Motto

After the Rout of Denethos Minor, the Sand Dragons drastically reordered their Chapter to prevent another occurrence in the future. Now, the Chapter is led by two Consuls instead of a single Chapter Master; the companies have been reformed into four cohorts: Veteran; Tactical; Assault; and Support. Each cohort is commanded by at least two Captains with the exception of the 1st Veteran Cohort which only has one Captain, but is combined with the Chapter’s command elements on the organizational level.

Ghost Crusade

“Ne obliviscaris” Do not forget -Perdition Squad Motto

The Third Cohort, which contains assault squads and bikes, land speeders being mixed into Fleet command, are also called the Paenitens Fraternus, or Brothers Penitent, and paint most of their armor matte black, displaying a personal shame they bear in service as the Chapter’s assault section. The 3rd Cohort works closely with the Reclusiam and many Chaplains march into the fray riding a bike or jump pack alongside the Paenitens Fraternus. One squad has exceeded their proscribed rotation of atonement in the Third Cohort and have deployed to Zazerus in a personal quest to rid their homeworld of taint and lead efforts to suppress growing mutant rebellion commanded by former members of the Chapter’s own. These veteran marines have been bestowed the squad designation of ‘Perditus’ by joint decision among the Chapter’s High Command and are known among the Anpu people as the legendary Perdition Squad. Over the decades several of the original squad members have fallen in battle, their mantle of service taken up by younger marines that wish to honor their fallen brothers by working to finish the crusade their elders started, in this way Perdition Squad has seen well over fifty members since it has been founded.

Beliefs

A Pantheon of Heroes, Fortress of Faith

“Persta Atque Obdure” Stand firm and also have strength -1st Legion Motto

Because their origins have been expunged, the Sand Dragons have always venerated the nine Loyalist Primarchs in equal measure with the Emperor being reserved a seat of greater honor in the Main Promenade, sometimes called the ‘Atrium of Idols’, of the Chapter’s Fortress Monastery ‘Mount of the Aquila’. A gigantic statue of each Primarch adorns one of twenty massive prayer-alcoves along the Main Promenade of the vessel, leaving eleven empty and draped in black in eternal reminder of the Fall of Horus and those eight others that fell from grace under him. At one end of the Promenade, a large idol to the Emperor of Mankind is wrapped in hammered bronze and gold, called the Imperator Adorare, and serves as the foyer to the Chapter’s Reclusiam as well as the Librarium and Reliquary Chamber. As the gatehouse to the former ship’s bridge, the Imperator Adorare is protected by a fortress complex and is effectively walled off from the rest of the Promenade behind adamantine gates worked into the form of the Aquila, walls etched by scriptures and the names of the Chapter’s Honored Dead, and bristling with ordnance.

V

eneration of each Primarch takes the form of an ascetic philosophy and warrior cult. The Emperor Himself occupies a tier of worship among the Sand Dragons that helps to bind each of the philosophical or martial divergences together into a cohesive whole, which the Cult of Guilliman exists in part to stabilize differences in the Chapter’s inter-cult relations.

Salamanders- The Cult of Vulkan ++

favored by artisans and the Chapter’s Techmarines, the Cult of Vulkan emphasizes a high quality of work and dedication to the artistry inherent in creating new machines and maintaining the Chapter’s existing equipment and holdings.

Raven Guard- The Cult of Corax ++

favored by younger warriors and those in battlefield roles, which require a higher degree of autonomy during the heat of battle; the Cult of Corax emphasizes independence of action, tactical initiative, and self-sufficiency.

Imperial Fists- The Cult of Dorn ++

brothers of the Fourth Cohort, especially tank crews, are the principle adherents of the Cult of Dorn, though many veterans also study and emulate the VIIth Chapter’s steadfast qualities.

White Scars- The Cult of Khan ++

favored by brothers who frequently redeploy in battle or are required to reach an objective quickly; the Cult of Khan emphasizes speed and agility and is most popular among the 3rd ‘Penitent’ Cohort and light craft and skimmer pilots among Fleet Command.

Ultramarines- The Cult of Guilliman ++

a martial philosophy more than spiritual, the Cult of Guilliman is popular amongst the Second Cohort, largest of the Cohorts, whose Captains take the responsibility of tactical organization of the Chapter’s engagements, and with the Chapter’s High Command and Reclusiam. The central tenants of the Cult emphasize keeping the various elements of the Chapter’s faith coherent, focused on pursuit of their traitorous brethren, and ultimately pacifying the Gypres sector.

Dark Angels- The Cult of The Lion ++

the most spiritual cult within the Sand Dragons, the Cult of The Lion has the closest ties with the Anpu people’s notions of physical and spiritual purity, and focuses intently on removing the taint of betrayal from the Chapter’s psyche. A great deal of this cult is wrapped up in remembrance of the Rout, a reflection of the moral failure of their former brothers during the Horus Heresy, and is most common among the Librarium, who see it as their duty to record the Chapter’s efforts of redemption and guide their brothers in achieving that salvation. Perdition Squad, veterans of the Third Cohort, are devoted adherents to this philosophy who have turned away from the greater efforts of the Chapter’s crusade and pursued a personal quest, ranging across Zazerus to chase down the Ruinous Powers and the mutant tribes that pay them homage.

Blood Angels- The Cult of Sanguinius ++

a purely philosophic cult among the Chapter, those among the Cult of Sanguinius cling to a rare optimism for both their Chapter and the Imperium as a whole, and devote themselves fervently to the task of the penitent crusade and their newfound duty to the Gypres sector and the people of Zazerus. The Cult of Sanguinius has few followers, though the handful that perpetuate the cult’s beliefs have elements within the Third Cohort and the Reclusiam.

Space Wolves- The Cult of The Pack ++

the independence of Leman Russ and the importance of tradition and brotherhood pervade the Cult of The Pack, making it almost as popular as the Cult of Guilliman, and much more pervasive as the cult’s tenants apply to a wider demographic of ideals among the Sand Dragons. The Cult of The Pack is often at odds with the Cult of The Lion, where the followers of Russ’ honest and boisterous aspects clash with the secretive and introverted aspects of the Lion Cult.

Iron Hands- The Cult of Iron ++

least popular of the cults, the Cult of Iron is usually only ever seen among the most technophilic of Mechanicus-trained brothers and an exceptional few others that see the life-imbued flesh as abhorrently weak, those brother marines that adhere to this cult are almost universally frowned upon.

Purity of Form

“Estis servatus etsi estis obscenus” Be saved even though you are filthy -Reclusiam Motto

The religious beliefs of the Anpu people have permeated the Chapter’s own rituals and become synonymous with their warrior cult. The most prevalent idiosyncrasy is the role water plays in purification rituals, where most of the Imperial Cult tends to use fire and scarification to purify the soul through mutilation of the body, the Anpu revere wholeness of body as mirroring the wholeness of the soul. Because of this, mutants are especially abhorrent to the Anpu, representing an innate and permanent corruption of the human body and thus the human soul, producing a cultural revulsion of the physical mutation that exceeds Imperial xenophobia.

Consequently, initiates into the Adeptus Astartes and Adeptus Mechanicus have brought these aspects of their culture and faith into the organizations. Local architecture is dominated by clean lines and adorned with sculpture representing the ideal human form often accompanied by twined hunting eagles symbolic of the Aquila; similarly prosthetic augments, even on servitors, endeavor to retain their human aesthetic. Another significant symbol of the Anpu adopted by the Sand Dragons is the kopesh, a hunting glaive with a deep, curved blade that is used as the basis for most Astartes blades and featured frequently in murals and sculptures.

Ablutions and baptisms are the most common purifying ritual, though in extreme cases of punishment and penitence the beneficiary is drowned and revived by an Anpu priest, often repeatedly. The chirurgeons of Zazerus are adept at healing wounds so that the chance of scars is minimized. The Anpu people have gained an increasing reputation in parts of the Ultima Segmentum for producing medicae experts from among their caste of eccentric mortuary healer-priests.

Sand Dragons Space Marine + Zazerian Reformation

Geneseed

Turbulent Rumors

“Furor arma ministrat” Anger furnishes arms -4th Legion Motto

The identity of the Sand Dragons’ genetic legacy is frequently investigated by multiple organizations within and without the Imperium. Rumors of mixed or traitorous geneseed and the rare report of blasphemous mutation being culled from the Chapter’s stocks abound. Their isolation near the wilderness zones of the Eastern Fringe does little to dissuade those earnest in uncovering the truth. These rumors have even drawn the attention of the Dark Angels, traitor space marines, as well as the enigmatic Eldar to the doorstep of the Sand Dragons.

Battlecry

“We Rise to the Storm!”

+++Sand Dragons Optional Special Rules+++

Advantage + As a Grain of Sand in the Desert ++ Sand Dragons favor stealth tactics and the senior Astartes of this Chapter will often don camoleoline cloaks to meld into the battlefield, leaving their enemies with nothing to shoot but the report of the muzzle flair of the marine’s boltguns.
Models in power armor may purchase camo cloaks (+5 pts per model), cloaks grant no benefit if a model in the squad or attached to it bears a banner or standard of any kind

Advantage + Decorous and Devoted ++ Experienced members of the Sand Dragons Chapter are highly capable of directing their battle brothers forward while laying down effective barrages of heavy fire support.
An Independent Character may purchase Relentless (+40pts); if he also has the Lion Totem then he grants Relentless to any squad attached to him

Advantage + Quick as the Wind ++ Since the reformation of the Chapter, Sand Dragons deploy with a higher proportion of skimmer and air support than is typical for a Space Marine assault. This preference for quick and mobile assaults as well as the Chapter’s lower number of experienced battle brothers precludes deployment of heavy or specialist elements of the Chapter alongside these aerial formations.
-2 Heavy Support Slots or -2 Elites Slots = +1 Fast Attack Slot (Skimmers Only) each

Disadvantage + Origin Expunged ++ Several factions about the galaxy have taken an extreme interest in the origins and activities of the Sand Dragons Chapter so that, despite their youthful status, a great deal about the Chapter is studied and put into use engaging them in and sometimes baiting them onto the field of battle.
Dark Angels and counts-as successor chapters, units or models with the Mark of Slaanesh, and Eldar/Dark Eldar psykers gain Preferred Enemy [sand Dragons] for no extra cost

Rage of the Dragon ++ The martial pride of the Sand Dragons takes the form of several warrior cults that venerate the Loyalist Primarchs through animist principles. An entire squad will sometimes share the same cult. This collective worship of martial principles can culminate in a passionate fervor among the squadmates that results in a headlong charge into the enemy.
Any unit or model must make an Ld test in the controlling player’s next movement phase or gain Rage until they assault an enemy unit if they benefit from a Cultic Totem

Restriction + Flesh Over Steel ++ The Sand Dragons are on crusade in the Eastern Fringe and have adopted a homeworld as a result. However, the Chapter is isolated from industrialized regions of the Imperium, on uneven terms with the Priesthood of Mars, and so have a difficult time procuring the resources to maintain more advanced examples of Astartes technology.
All vehicles (including dreadnoughts and thunderfire cannon) increase their basic cost by +10pts; additionally only one of the following may be chosen in a single FOC: Land Raider (any variant), Thunderfire Cannon, Dreadnought (any variant)


Restriction + Heavy Losses ++ Since the Rout of Denethos Minor and the receipt of their penitent crusade, the Sand Dragons Chapter has dealt with a significant lack of fully trained and augmented battle brothers, maintaining and fielding a larger contingent of neophyte scouts than normal.
Scouts are: 1+ (up to 1000pts); 2+ (1001~2000pts); 3+ (2001pts or greater)

Restriction + Wisdom of the Ancients ++ While the Sand Dragons have accrued a lengthy roll of honor, they do not have the resources to grant their most honored brothers living entombment within a dreadnought’s sarcophagus.
Venerable Dreadnoughts take up two Elites choices OR one Elites choice and one Heavy Support choice

++Advantage + Cultic Totems++
Independent Characters (but not special characters), Veteran Vanguard/Sternguard squads, and Terminator and Terminator Assault squads may purchase a single totem for the listed points cost, independent characters pay the first listed points cost, eligible squads pay the second cost per model. A totem grants its effects to any squad or character attached to the bearer. A squad with a totem different from an independent character’s totem may not join each other; models with no totem or an Eagle Totem (see below) do not count in this respect.
[20pts/9pts] Cult of Vulkan + Snake Totem ++ Unit Gains Tank Hunters; Techmarines and Masters of the Forge may instead gain a +1 bonus to their “Blessing of the Omissiah” special ability for +10pts
[25pts/11pts] Cult of Corax + Raven Totem ++ Unit gains Move Through Cover and may also Infiltrate for +10pts/+10pts per model
[30pts/14pts] Cult of The Pack + Wolf Totem ++ Unit gains Furious Charge
[25pts/–] Cult of Guilliman + Eagle Totem ++ (Independent Characters Only) Unit adds one to its die roll when attempting to deploy from Reserves; units within six inches of an independent character with this totem may use its Ld value for any leadership test except Rage of the Dragon, all units benefiting from or causing this bonus must test because of Rage of the Dragon under the causing model’s Ld and on a single roll (i.e. they all either pass or fail together); models with this totem may join any unit, even if it has a different totem and vice versa.
[20pts/9pts] Cult of Dorn + Hawk Totem ++ Unit gains Fearless when contesting or holding an objective; the unit must make a check as per ‘Rage of the Dragon’ at the beginning of a friendly turn after this benefit is invoked and is the only leadership test that cannot benefit from the Hawk Totem.
[20pts/9pts] Cult of the Lion + Lion Totem ++ Unit gains Stubborn
[25pts/11pts] Cult of Sanguinius + Scorpion Totem ++ Unit gains Counter-Attack
[40pts/20pts] Cult of Iron + Scarab Totem ++ Unit gains Feel no Pain
[30pts/14pts] Cult of Khan + Falcon Totem ++ Unit gains Fleet if it has deployed from a transport this turn, are jump infantry, or are riding bikes or cavalry

[Warsmith Aznable]

Didn't see the new thread...

 

I like the "Post Zazerus" color scheme. The other ones kind of hurt my eyes and make me imagine what a paint they'd be to paint. But that's not a critique of the IA...

 

"With no history but an ignominious defeat," Seems a bit awkward to say they have no history. I think I would phrase this differently. You mention all the "curious" facts about their founding and gene-seed, and that's history before their major defeat.

 

Fluff wise, I like the schism and the penitent crusade to chase down the heretic company that got away. Sort of a Dark Angels type thing going on there, and I think it can work. It can even give you an excuse to make a Chaos Marine army based on them later.

 

"A schism in the ranks of the Sand Dragons Chapter set in motion a chain of strategic losses that forced a system-wide sanction of Exterminatus and allowed the Chapter’s traitorous elements, fully an entire company’s worth of space marines, materiel, and the Chapter Master, to escape justice and sow discord in the Eastern Fringe." - this seems like it's important. Like, MAJOR important. The concept seems fine to me, I think it's a matter of how you organize this information and write it.

 

" Veneration of the Emperor in this desolate place takes the form of a pair of cephalocanid deities. Setar represents aspects of evil and destruction, generally regarded as a pagan form of the Ruinous Powers; Setar is opposed by his brother, Anpu, the proxy of the Emperor, protector, and judge of the dead. "

 

Veneration for the Emperor -> Pair of Cthulhu monsters -> an aspect of the Emperor is a Cthulhu monster.

 

This is all kinds of problematic, and it's no wonder that they are suspect. They are representing the Most Holy Emperor of Mankind, Beloved By All, as a xenos looking tentacle thing?

 

"warp-beasts, most feared are the legendary sand dragons, from whom the Chapter gets its name"

And they are named after daemons from the Warp?

 

"The Chapter’s Fortress Monastery was once the venerable Battlebarge ‘Mount of the Aquila’ before it was forced to land on Zazerus and became mired in the billowing sands on the planet. "

I like this idea. Sort of like the Autobots base in the Transformers cartoon from the 80s.

 

"Wings of the Dragon" section in the Combat Doctrine part

 

I don't get what their combat doctrine really is. You say they eschew ground based assaults, preferring skimmers, and don't like drop pods because they are into stealth, and they use ground assaults and drop pod assaults to cover their true objectives. This section needs to be much more straightforward.

 

"The Four Legions" There were 20 Space Marine Legions. Now the only Space Marine Legions are Traitors. You're running in full out Latin mode, so why not try a Latin organization that is not already heavily accounted for in the fluff? How about a Century for a company, or a Consortio? Or a Cohort?

 

"Ghost Crusade" The Chapter is on a Penitent Crusade, but there is a squad within the Chapter that is on it's own personal Penitent Crusade within the ranks? Why would the Assault units be more guilty than the rest? It could work, like maybe they are all guilty by association with this Assault squad, and it is the Assault squad that did the actual bad stuff. It just needs a better story explanation.

 

"A Pantheon of Heroes, Fortress of Faith"

This is not really a belief, it is a description of a room in their fortress. You spend one line describing their veneration of all of the Loyalist Primarchs, and then spend the rest of the paragraph describing the room they do it in. It's a cool idea, it just needs to be fit in correctly.

 

"Purity of Form"

A whole paragraph about how they don't like mutants and use water as a cleansing ritual metaphor instead of fire. This could be taken care of in a line or two. It also doesn't really say much about what they do with water and how that makes them special.

 

Forum code for the gene-seed section is a bit wonky

 

"The identity of the Sand Dragons’ genetic legacy is frequently investigated by multiple organizations within and without the Imperium. Rumors of mixed or traitorous geneseed and the rare report of blasphemous mutation being culled from the Chapter’s stocks abound. Their isolation near the wilderness zones of the Eastern Fringe does little to dissuade those earnest in uncovering the truth. These rumors have even drawn the attention of the Dark Angels, traitor space marines, as well as the enigmatic Eldar to the doorstep of the Sand Dragons."

 

You spend a lot of time describing particular rooms in the fortress, and how their hatred of mutants and their love of water rituals has affected local architecture. You spend exactly three lines for the entire gene-seed section. The original Chapter was founded with gene-seed from every Loyalist Primarch, which is strange in and of itself, and then somehow or another there are rumors of Traitor Primarch gene-seed in there that gets everybody in the Galaxy running out to their unimportant little corner of space to have a desperate look...

 

I know what you're trying to do with this, and I think it could be very cool. But your writing on the gene-seed is as subtle as a brick, and this spends way too much time focusing on the places the Chapter does things instead of what the Chapter actually does.

 

-M-

[Consul of Scorpions]

TL;DR: Ugh, first too much detail in the wrong place, now too little and in the wrong places, and I'm still focused on the material.

 

Also: Cephalo (head) + canid (dog) = dog-headed, specifically Anubis 'Anpu' (god of judgement and death, guardian of the underworld) and Set 'Setar' (god of evil and destruction)

 

Cephalopods (head + foot) are squids

 

And yes, the Dark Angels feel was intentional, because... yeah, you should know why.

 

I see no problems with the forum code on my end, except the colors on all of my headers are transparent no matter what I do.

 

I like the "Post Zazerus" color scheme. The other ones kind of hurt my eyes and make me imagine what a paint they'd be to paint.

...I like how the Star Dragons look...

 

It can even give you an excuse to make a Chaos Marine army based on them later

Several, in fact.

 

"warp-beasts, most feared are the legendary sand dragons, from whom the Chapter gets its name"

And they are named after daemons from the Warp?

Physical manifestations of daemons in the very sands of zazerus, or perhaps necrons *mystery hammer* the characteristic of the Sand Dragons are what the marines emulate, not their origins, or is it *mystery hammer*

 

"Ghost Crusade" The Chapter is on a Penitent Crusade, but there is a squad within the Chapter that is on it's own personal Penitent Crusade within the ranks? Why would the Assault units be more guilty than the rest? It could work, like maybe they are all guilty by association with this Assault squad, and it is the Assault squad that did the actual bad stuff. It just needs a better story explanation.

Think Sisters Repentia, only with more clothes and less sex appeal, that is the assault squads and biker squadrons of the Sand Dragons, they take assault duty as part of their penitence through service. Perdition Squad is akin to a veteran vanguard squad next to other Penitent Brothers and much more 'lone-wolf' and 'out for revenge/repentance'.

 

"Purity of Form"

A whole paragraph about how they don't like mutants and use water as a cleansing ritual metaphor instead of fire. This could be taken care of in a line or two. It also doesn't really say much about what they do with water and how that makes them special.

 

I left specifics out because I was concerned about space constraints and had nothing concrete to put on paper.

 

===

 

'Consortio' sounds good, thanks for the suggestion.

 

"With no history but an ignominious defeat," Seems a bit awkward to say they have no history.

perhaps I should exchange 'no' with 'little' or perhaps 'little known'?

[Warsmith Aznable]

"Also: Cephalo (head) + canid (dog) = dog-headed, specifically Anubis 'Anpu' (god of judgement and death, guardian of the underworld) and Set 'Setar' (god of evil and destruction)"

 

Gotcha, I read that wrong. (I got Cthulhu on the brain...)

 

"...I like how the Star Dragons look..."

 

That's cool; it was just my opinion, so disregard at will. I just think it looks very "busy".

 

"Think Sisters Repentia, that is the assault squads and biker squadrons, they take assault duty as part of their penitence through service."

 

That clears it up a little. I think it's a neat idea, I just didn't get that out of the presentation the way it was written.

 

"Physical manifestations of daemons in the very sands of zazerus, or perhaps necrons *mystery hammer*"

 

Might be over kill. They've already got a lot of weird stuff going for them, having them named after something crazy is moving toward pushing the whole thing over the line. But that's just me.

 

"perhaps I should exchange 'no' with 'little' or perhaps 'little known'?"

 

Maybe. It seems that you're de-emphasizing the "origins expunged" thing when you come back later and talk about their being founded with gene-seed from all of the Primarchs and all that about their training cadre. I don't see a problem with just saying "The Sand Dragons were formed from the remnants of the Star Dragons and immediately sent on a Penitent Crusade. Only the name of the Star Dragons remains in memory, along with some antiquated power armor painted in the previous Chapter's colors collecting dust in the armory." Or summat like that. The bit about their company lost to heresy could be its own section, and that section could primarily describe their hunt for their former brothers while dropping clues to whatever heresy it was that led to their Penitent Crusade.

 

And all of this is just me, and I'm struggling with my own DIY WIP right now, so anybody else feel free to chime in with better suggestions than mine.

[Consul of Scorpions]

UPDATE: So, I've added about 2 pages worth of text and formatting to the outline, something I'm not very comfortable with, but the Beliefs section has gotten a lot more definition and there have been a few minor edits elsewhere based on -Max-'s criticisms and a couple error-checks.

[Warsmith Aznable]

"Ablutions and baptisms are the most common purifying ritual, though in extreme cases of punishment and penitence the beneficiary is drowned and revived by an Anpu priest, often repeatedly."

 

Cool!

 

The stuff about the different Primarch cults is interesting, is that going to translate into specific special units or rules?

[Consul of Scorpions]

"Ablutions and baptisms are the most common purifying ritual, though in extreme cases of punishment and penitence the beneficiary is drowned and revived by an Anpu priest, often repeatedly."

 

Cool!

 

The stuff about the different Primarch cults is interesting, is that going to translate into specific special units or rules?

 

Perhaps some sort of superficial paint scheme or totem, but I have enough special rules for the chapter, though I might look at making some sort of wargear option based on the cults for veteran/terminator squads.

 

UPDATE: minor additions and corrections.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

One thing I'll say is that you need to take a serious look at your formatting as you've got pictures running over your writing pretty much everywhere. It looks terrible. Some line breaks would be fantastic.

 

[clearfloat][/clearfloat]

 

Should work, I think. Been a while since I formatted an article for submission, tragically.

 

Oh and -Max-, I know it's not unsual for a lot of people to critique or discuss/debate the comments given by others on a chapter (myself very much so) and it makes it rather hard to at a glance see what you're talking about, for me at least, if you don't put your quotes in quote tags.

 

[quote][/quote]

 

Not only that but all you have to do is highlight the text and click the 'Wrap in quote tags' button at the top of the comment text-box. It sounds incredibly anal and nitpicky to say it (and it is, don't I know it), but it makes it a lot easier to decipher what you're on about.

[Consul of Scorpions]

Thanks for the advice, but that was intentional, using the line break shatters the illustrated tome format I'm going for. It's only an outline as well, so the sidebars will be better-placed once I get down to the full article.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Oh and -Max-, I know it's not unsual for a lot of people to critique or discuss/debate the comments given by others on a chapter (myself very much so) and it makes it rather hard to at a glance see what you're talking about, for me at least, if you don't put your quotes in quote tags.

 

Noted. :devil: One of my replies in the other thread had too many quote boxes, so I did this and then unthinkingly stuck with it...

[CKO]

The paint scheme is horrible in my opinion.

 

The origin section creates suspense, but it doesnt clearly informs the reader who or how they were created. It seems that you would like a mixture of gene seed but I dont know how you can pull that off.

 

The crusade part is really good, and you could leave it as it is to keep the suspense you created with the first few parts, or you can go into details just to let us know how the chapter was pre betryal.

 

The Homeworld part is good but it is too long, I think you can shorten it. I dont understand why you would have the homeworld's religion/culture section just as big as the chapter's belief section.

 

Combat Doctrine do they use drop pods or are they diversions?

 

The organization part is good as their should be a total revamp after the betrayal, but instead of having certain members of the Sand Dragons join the Ghost squads shouldnt everyone at some part in time partake in trying to finished the crusade. I just dont like the idea that only a couple hundred marines want to finish what their predecessors started, especially when its that important.

 

The belief section is OMG good, but I dont understand the water part. You already have an excellent belief culture, the water part should be left out.

 

Overall good read just try to shorten it up.

[Consul of Scorpions]

The paint scheme is horrible in my opinion.

The first two are what I had before, the third is the final paint scheme. Additionally, I noticed the Astra scorpions had a similar paint scheme, only brighter on the pruple. Instead of reworking it entirely I had them use the previous scheme as a pre-schism style, so the only marines you'll see using that gaudy display are the older members of the Sharav Corsairs, the Slaaneshi Dervishes use more 'ah, my eyes' colors than the original Star Dragons did.

 

If you mean you hate the new colors, I'll have to agree to disagree, I'm not changing them again without a VERY good reason.

 

The origin section creates suspense, but it doesnt clearly informs the reader who or how they were created. It seems that you would like a mixture of gene seed but I dont know how you can pull that off.

 

The crusade part is really good, and you could leave it as it is to keep the suspense you created with the first few parts, or you can go into details just to let us know how the chapter was pre betryal.

 

I'll keep the suspense since the answers are boring and don't add anything much to the overall document.

 

The Homeworld part is good but it is too long, I think you can shorten it. I dont understand why you would have the homeworld's religion/culture section just as big as the chapter's belief section.

 

Their Homeworld has a lot to do with who the Sand Dragons are now, the chapter is atypical since they GAINED a homeworld after being sent on a penitent crusade. and their beliefs are influenced by Zazerus' culture to a great deal so I see no problems here.

 

Combat Doctrine do they use drop pods or are they diversions?

 

The text is very clear, drop pods (and mechanised assaults) are used rarely and only as diversionary tactics, the Sand Dragons are principally an air power and that has something to do with the betrayal now that I think of it (thanks for that), perhaps I'll make a note.

 

The organization part is good as their should be a total revamp after the betrayal, but instead of having certain members of the Sand Dragons join the Ghost squads shouldnt everyone at some part in time partake in trying to finished the crusade. I just dont like the idea that only a couple hundred marines want to finish what their predecessors started, especially when its that important.

 

Negative, about a company out of maybe four to six marine plus two scout comapnies are tasked with coordinating the pacification efforts of an entire sector, a FEW SQUADS being assigned to help the locals out on Zazerus is a large expenditure of force for this chapter let alone any marine chapter. Perdition Squad is the only element that's personally dedicated to the cleansing of Zazerus, so much so, they've been granted ad hoc command of the effort. I believe the text is mostly clear on this.

 

The belief section is OMG good, but I dont understand the water part. You already have an excellent belief culture, the water part should be left out.

 

Thanks, the water is a quirk I came up with as fire in the desert sounded typical and lame, plus I was using Egyptian mythology as a basis for the more mystical aspects and water struck me as a very holy item, more so than the romanesque fonts of holy water.

[exaggeration]These guys throw a pool party for a mass![/exaggeration]

 

Overall good read just try to shorten it up.

...What do you mean? It is short... :P

 

Okay, I sorta see it, but I have no idea where to cut anything right now, I might be able to move one or two things into a sidebar to break it up visually, but I'm not sure I can easily cut something (and yes, I have read several of the guides on editing down length).

 

 

UPDATE: Cultic Totems added to special rules section at the bottom of the article; 'Decorous and Devoted' and 'Rage of the Dragon' text changed to fall in line with totems; combat doctrine expounded upon, looking at adding a line break line break added.

[Astral Scorpions]

Wait, Khan is a Scorpion totem? ....I picked Scorpions to contrasts with Khan. If anything, Khan should be a Hawk/Falcon, as RL mongols used the birds extensively and considered them symbols of status. It is also rumored that the bird of prey's preferred method of a quick strike as part of a charge inspired the lightning strike style used in many of the raids of the early Mongols.

[Consul of Scorpions]

I was kind of grasping for enough animal totems for all of them, what would you suggest I replace the Dark/Blood Angels' totem with?

 

Actually, I had enough trouble with all of them, critique all of the Chapter/totem relations for any errors in judgement on my part.

[Consul of Scorpions]

Bump: Final draft is ready for critique.

[NightrawenII]

Harrowed by enemies that were once brothers, aliens that act on the nebulous skeins of fate, and brothers that are now enemies, the Chapter struggles against the enemy without, within, and beyond in a small and lonely corner of the galactic stage.

Enemies, once brothers are metioned twice.

 

The chapter’s foundation is also curious, as the training cadre was composed of many diverse chapters, primarily of the Second Founding. It is also of note that their numbers were drawn evenly from the genetic legacies of all nine of the Loyalist Primarchs, which the Dark Angels and Space Wolves accepted with resentment and amusement, respectively.

This will create huge mess of things, if not for different combat-doctrines, then for different beliefs, traditions and customs.

 

The Chapter has adopted a new name and colors as they have adopted a new home.

The Chapter name is given by the Emperor itself, changing it is blasphemy agains His will. I'm not suprised that they changed their colour scheme though. :) Also, re-painting your armour could offend its Machine Spirit a very tricky thing to do.

 

that forced a system-wide sanction of Exterminatus

Exterminatus is called on planets without hope to reconquer. T'ros was for example not exterminated.

 

Zazerus is an isolated backwater near the Eastern Fringe known for little other than its deadly gravel storms and rich mineral deposits, namely dilute adamantium ore and a sturdy type of granite that resists even Zazerus’ erosive winds. A small enclave of Mechanicus priests are stationed on Zazerus’ only moon, Typhoeus, investigating its ambulatory flora.

If the planet is so rich in minerals, it would be turned in Minning World millenia ago.

 

The necropli are a place of the dead, but also beacons of life, as caravans make the trek into the polar wastelands to trade foodstuffs and crafts for the holy cities’ vast stores of water. Each city-state generally produces its own food, with the exception of the polar necropoli, and some produce bumper crops instead of the works of artisans with which to trade.

Doesn't work. If the Necropoli are the only source of water, then there would be more than two cities of death.

 

Zazerus’ people are astonishingly pure and free of deleterious or inhuman mutations, making a fine base of recruitment for the Sand Dragons Chapter

And they have a Chaos-worshippers amongs them? Yeah, they must be astonishingly pure.

 

Over the centuries, the Chapter’s dogma has shifted in line with the beliefs of the Anpu people; many rituals and blood rites have melded with both the Imperial Cult and the Chapter’s own practices.

Blood rites? Yay! Again, they must be astonishingly pure.

 

Scholarly speculation that Setar represents the Anpu people’s version of Chaos is closer to the mark than its faculty knows. The desert wastes of Zazerus are infested with warp-beasts and other horrors, most feared are the legendary sand dragons, from whom the Chapter gets its name, whose flesh reforms like a blowing gale when cut by mortal weapons. Their bodies are said to contort like a dust devil, bringing claws and fangs of iron-hard glass to bear where before there was only grainy and impervious hide. The heart of a sand dragon is a valuable gemstone among the Anpu and a possession of great prestige, bringing one of these crystalline trophies to a Librarian of the Sand Dragons is said to all but guarantee admission into the chapter’s ranks.

Chaos infested planet? Yeah, really astonishingly pure.

 

Lately, a squad of Penitent Marines from the Chapter has begun scouring the sands of these bands of brigands and cultists, providing a measure of relief to the overwhelmed caravan bodyguards when the shrouded armor of the superhuman warriors appear out of the dusts to break a mutant assault.

So in short, the SM Chapter landed on Chaos infested planet, live there for centuries and lately they thought it would be good to scour these offenders. It just me or is there something wrong with this?

 

... which are led by less conspicuous advance elements supported by fleet elements and sometimes accomplished solely by neophyte scout squads.

The important part of battle plan is carried out by n00bs? Yeah, that make sence, except it doesn't.

 

... Part of the Chapter’s peculiar favor for Thunderhawk insertions has a great deal to do with their failure at Denethos Minor where advance elements had deployed conventionally

Do you realize that Marines aren't idiots and don't droppod in the middle of nowhere and then wait for their enemy to came after them.

 

After the Rout of Denethos Minor, the Sand Dragons drastically reordered their Chapter to prevent another occurrence in the future. Now, the Chapter is led by two Consuls instead of a single Chapter Master; the companies have been reformed into four cohorts: Veteran; Tactical; Assault; and Support. Each cohort is commanded by at least two Captains with the exception of the 1st Veteran Cohort which only has one Captain, but is combined with the Chapter’s command elements on the organizational level.

If part of your Chapter have fallen to the predations of Chaos, then there is something rotten in the state of Denmark, but not in the organisation structure.

 

V

eneration of each Primarch takes the form of an ascetic philosophy and warrior cult. The Emperor Himself occupies a tier of worship among the Sand Dragons that helps to bind....

 

*snip*

Madness.

 

Another significant symbol of the Anpu adopted by the Sand Dragons is the kopesh, a hunting glaive with a deep, curved blade that is used as the basis for most Astartes blades and featured frequently in murals and sculptures.

*SMACK!!! => facepalm*

How many times I will correct this stupidity? Glaive is a POLEARM. Khopesh is a sword(or sword-axe if you want) and swords are nigh to useless in hunting.

 

The Anpu people have gained an increasing reputation in parts of the Ultima Segmentum for producing medicae experts from among their caste of eccentric mortuary healer-priests.

This would require space-traveling first and if the Zazerus is backwater I can't see it happening.

 

as well as the enigmatic Eldar

Why should the Eldar care about bunch of filthy monkeys?

[Consul of Scorpions]

Enemies, once brothers are metioned twice.

Intentional, I'm referrencing first their traitor brethren and second the Dark Angels and the Unforgiven, pay attention.

 

This will create huge mess of things, if not for different combat-doctrines, then for different beliefs, traditions and customs.

Precisely.

 

The Chapter name is given by the Emperor itself, changing it is blasphemy agains His will. I'm not suprised that they changed their colour scheme though. Also, re-painting your armour could offend its Machine Spirit a very tricky thing to do.

There are several cases of name and color changes, in this case it is to honor their adoption of a homeworld, linking them to the people, pay attention.

 

Exterminatus is called on planets without hope to reconquer. T'ros was for example not exterminated.

Yeah, pay attention.

 

If the planet is so rich in minerals, it would be turned in Minning World millenia ago.

Relative assessment, the only notable mineral desposits are dilute aggregations of admantine ore and an erosion-resistant granite, they might be rich in [certain] mineral resources, but they're still an isolated backwater inimical to life and infested with all manner of deadly things that prevent large-scale mining operations in a fringe sector still being reclaimed. Somebody might've tried, but there's not been enough time for anything significant to develop and or succeed since the world has been discovered. Also, do the words "new sector" and "recently discovered" mean anything? Everything Pre-Crusade happened barely a millenium ago if even several centuries.

 

Doesn't work. If the Necropoli are the only source of water, then there would be more than two cities of death.

Big cities.

 

And they have a Chaos-worshippers amongs them? Yeah, they must be astonishingly pure.

Everyone has Chaos worshippers among them, I just went into detail about the regional specifics of Zazerian cultists.

 

Blood rites? Yay! Again, they must be astonishingly pure.

???

 

Chaos infested planet? Yeah, really astonishingly pure.

Death World, Warp Beasts, Mutants, Necrons, and Really Deadly Animals. Just because the people call them daemons doesn't make all of them daemons.

 

So in short, the SM Chapter landed on Chaos infested planet, live there for centuries and lately they thought it would be good to scour these offenders. It just me or is there something wrong with this?

No, pay attention, there has always been a movement to scour Zazerus of Chaos taint, but lately it has been ramped up in relation to the overall crusade and a squad has taken it upon themselves to do the scouring as a personnal crusade. I wonder what they did to take that kind of quest? *hint hint*

 

The important part of battle plan is carried out by n00bs? Yeah, that make sence, except it doesn't.

N00bs that rival well-trained specialists in ability and resources.

 

Do you realize that Marines aren't idiots and don't droppod in the middle of nowhere and then wait for their enemy to came after them.

...are you being beligerent and dense to test my patience? The drop troops were there to close off routes of escape after the target had commited to using them. The entire Siege of Denethos was a long-winded affair and precluded even marine-style tactics against the natives' defences.

 

If part of your Chapter have fallen to the predations of Chaos, then there is something rotten in the state of Denmark, but not in the organisation structure.

...An entire Company plus the Chapter Master defected... the master of the chapter... that would be a sufficient catalyst for changing the order of things, IMO.

 

Madness.

...

 

How many times I will correct this stupidity? Glaive is a POLEARM. Khopesh is a sword(or sword-axe if you want) and swords are nigh to useless in hunting.

Yes, I'm quite aware, however, the Anpu mixed the glaive with the kopesh and kept calling it a kopesh, pay attention.

 

This would require space-traveling first and if the Zazerus is backwater I can't see it happening.

What did the Space Marine Chapter bring with them? Space ships and interstellar trade routes? Not everything is said directly and more is implied without being shoveled down your throat.

 

Why should the Eldar care about bunch of filthy monkeys?

...Take a wild effing guess, the house rules hold a better clue, but the various hints of 'Dark Angels', 'mixed geneseed', and 'interest by Chaos and Eldar' should tell you everything you need to know: their geneseed is a splice of Dark Angels and Pre-Heresy Emperor's Children (Chaos? Eldar? Slaanesh? *hint hint*) material. Pay attention.

[Ace Debonair]

Alright. Let me start with the most important part of my reply:

pay attention.

That is the most obnoxious, irritating reply to anything I have ever heard in Liber.

Especially when said repeatedly to someone who has just critiqued your entire IA. And bear in mind, that isn't even in the top ten most devastating/in depth criticisms I've read this month.

 

Now, that said, I'll take a look through this IA myself and see what I can see. ^_^

Part of the Chapter’s peculiar favor for Thunderhawk insertions has a great deal to do with their failure at Denethos Minor where advance elements had deployed conventionally for some time and waited for their traitorous brethren to insert on top of several crucial bottlenecks once the foe had been baited out of their underground fortress bastion. Instead, Thunderhawks supposedly carrying supplies dropped megaton-yield warheads on the entrenched Star Dragons and a strike cruiser carrying the former Chapter Master performed a low-orbit attack run after the fusion warheads had cracked open his brothers’ hardened position, decimating the Star Dragons’ originally formidable numbers.

 

So... you use thunderhawks because your chapter master used thunderhawks to betray you...?

Perhaps it should just be a preference that has become more and more pronounced over time, using thunderhawk deployment rather than drop pods. :D

 

The chapter’s foundation is also curious, as the training cadre was composed of many diverse chapters, primarily of the Second Founding. It is also of note that their numbers were drawn evenly from the genetic legacies of all nine of the Loyalist Primarchs, which the Dark Angels and Space Wolves accepted with resentment and amusement, respectively.

...I don't see that working at all, honestly.

Why the DA would willingly part with people who could be hunting the fallen, or why the BA would send anyone (who could succumb to the black rage) is totally beyond me. :P

In fact, I don't really see what the point of this is at all - what did you want this to add to the chapter?

 

These rumors have even drawn the attention of the Dark Angels, traitor space marines, as well as the enigmatic Eldar to the doorstep of the Sand Dragons.

I don't follow. How do Traitors and Eldar know anything about this? And why would they bother?

Do the Sand Dragons have 'our geneseed is unknown' painted on their ships or something? :)

 

Let me add:

Whatever is under the spoiler tag, I haven't read it.

I assume it's made-up rules and the like, which don't really mean anything to me since I don't play the game. :P

 

EDIT:

...Take a wild effing guess, the house rules hold a better clue, but the various hints of 'Dark Angels', 'mixed geneseed', and 'interest by Chaos and Eldar' should tell you everything you need to know: their geneseed is a splice of Dark Angels and Pre-Heresy Emperor's Children (Chaos? Eldar? Slaanesh? *hint hint*) material.

Just spotted this.

 

I should probably make you aware that it's very unlikely that anyone in 40k actually knows how to splice gene-seed.

And quite why a DA chapter would let everybody else pile in to train their successor is going to take some serious explaining. :P

 

And also; the IA should tell you 'everything you need to know'. We're not psychic.

[Consul of Scorpions]

Alright. Let me start with the most important part of my reply:

pay attention.

That is the most obnoxious, irritating reply to anything I have ever heard in Liber.

Especially when said repeatedly to someone who has just critiqued your entire IA. And bear in mind, that isn't even in the top ten most devastating/in depth criticisms I've read this month.

I deeply apologize for that, there is nothing to excuse taking my frustration out on the members, especially when it has nothing to do with the board at all (I was hoping to retract those parts before anyone noticed... like you did).

 

Now, that said, I'll take a look through this IA myself and see what I can see. ^_^

Part of the Chapter’s peculiar favor for Thunderhawk insertions has a great deal to do with their failure at Denethos Minor where advance elements had deployed conventionally for some time and waited for their traitorous brethren to insert on top of several crucial bottlenecks once the foe had been baited out of their underground fortress bastion. Instead, Thunderhawks supposedly carrying supplies dropped megaton-yield warheads on the entrenched Star Dragons and a strike cruiser carrying the former Chapter Master performed a low-orbit attack run after the fusion warheads had cracked open his brothers’ hardened position, decimating the Star Dragons’ originally formidable numbers.

 

So... you use thunderhawks because your chapter master used thunderhawks to betray you...?

Perhaps it should just be a preference that has become more and more pronounced over time, using thunderhawk deployment rather than drop pods. :D

no- yes... whoops, thanks for catching that

 

The chapter’s foundation is also curious, as the training cadre was composed of many diverse chapters, primarily of the Second Founding. It is also of note that their numbers were drawn evenly from the genetic legacies of all nine of the Loyalist Primarchs, which the Dark Angels and Space Wolves accepted with resentment and amusement, respectively.

...I don't see that working at all, honestly.

Why the DA would willingly part with people who could be hunting the fallen, or why the BA would send anyone (who could succumb to the black rage) is totally beyond me. :P

In fact, I don't really see what the point of this is at all - what did you want this to add to the chapter?

I could have sworn I mentioned something about their origins being expunged... hmm, where could it be- the chapter's true origins are unknown, the DA are just supremely suspicious, and it wasn't necessarily the first founding chapters, but marines with geneseed descended from the original lines, so successors may have shown up instead of the progenitors. As for what it adds, this is the best event I could come up with to explain the origin of the Primarch Cults

 

These rumors have even drawn the attention of the Dark Angels, traitor space marines, as well as the enigmatic Eldar to the doorstep of the Sand Dragons.

I don't follow. How do Traitors and Eldar know anything about this? And why would they bother?

Do the Sand Dragons have 'our geneseed is unknown' painted on their ships or something? :lol:

 

Let me add:

Whatever is under the spoiler tag, I haven't read it.

I assume it's made-up rules and the like, which don't really mean anything to me since I don't play the game. :lol:

 

There's mostly rules, but also more fluff with the rules. I spoilered it to keep from blasting your eyes with a wall of mechanics.

 

EDIT:

...Take a wild effing guess, the house rules hold a better clue, but the various hints of 'Dark Angels', 'mixed geneseed', and 'interest by Chaos and Eldar' should tell you everything you need to know: their geneseed is a splice of Dark Angels and Pre-Heresy Emperor's Children (Chaos? Eldar? Slaanesh? *hint hint*) material.

Just spotted this.

 

I should probably make you aware that it's very unlikely that anyone in 40k actually knows how to splice gene-seed.

And quite why a DA chapter would let everybody else pile in to train their successor is going to take some serious explaining. :P

Well, someone does, because the Revilers (IIRC) didn't pop out of thin air... just saying.

 

And also; the IA should tell you 'everything you need to know'. We're not psychic.

Originally I did tell everything, but, alas, it was both too long and was far too focused. I feel like I've included enough hints in enough places in the article that spell out the majority of the unsaid material. Granted, it forces the reader to temporarily memorize the article or take notes or something

(hence 'pay attention')

, but it's the only space-saving measure I could come up with without having to cut some sections and expand others. ...that's probably a sign that I'm trying to do too much... which means I'm going to need some help figuring what can be excised without damaging the concept, which is something else I should be working on... :lol:

[NightrawenII]

Intentional, I'm referrencing first their traitor brethren and second the Dark Angels and the Unforgiven, pay attention.

Well, I didn't read the rules, because I think these are not relevant to IA.

 

This will create huge mess of things, if not for different combat-doctrines, then for different beliefs, traditions and customs.

Precisely.

And thats precisely the reason for not doing it.

 

There are several cases of name and color changes, in this case it is to honor their adoption of a homeworld, linking them to the people, pay attention.

Luna Wolves -> Sons of Horus(to honor their Primarch) -> Black Legion(because Abaddon said so)

Astral Claws -> Red Corsairs(becuse they are Renegades right now.)

Fire Claws -> Relictors(It's rather nickname, than re-naming)

And a lot of renegates I'm too lazy to type...

 

Conclusion: It's not made on the whim and it's still big issue: Do not poke a sleeping dragon.

 

Relative assessment, the only notable mineral desposits are dilute aggregations of admantine ore and an erosion-resistant granite, they might be rich in [certain] mineral resources, but they're still an isolated backwater inimical to life and infested with all manner of deadly things that prevent large-scale mining operations in a fringe sector still being reclaimed. Somebody might've tried, but there's not been enough time for anything significant to develop and or succeed since the world has been discovered. Also, do the words "new sector" and "recently discovered" mean anything? Everything Pre-Crusade happened barely a millenium ago if even several centuries.

Well, dunno. There is no date nor indication of it.

 

Doesn't work. If the Necropoli are the only source of water, then there would be more than two cities of death.

Big cities.

Big cities of dead people.

 

Everyone has Chaos worshippers among them, I just went into detail about the regional specifics of Zazerian cultists.

Not the Space Marine Chapter nor their recruiting stock.

Pure white roses doesn't grow in the middle of chemical stockyard. And if they does, then they doesn't smell like roses. Do you get, what I'm saying?

 

Blood rites? Yay! Again, they must be astonishingly pure.

???

Blood rites are foremost reason for all kinds of disases and infections.

 

Chaos infested planet? Yeah, really astonishingly pure.

Death World, Warp Beasts, Mutants, Necrons, and Really Deadly Animals. Just because the people call them daemons doesn't make all of them daemons.

It's still Chaos infested World, yet they are astonishingly pure.

 

So in short, the SM Chapter landed on Chaos infested planet, live there for centuries and lately they thought it would be good to scour these offenders. It just me or is there something wrong with this?

No, pay attention, there has always been a movement to scour Zazerus of Chaos taint, but lately it has been ramped up in relation to the overall crusade and a squad has taken it upon themselves to do the scouring as a personnal crusade. I wonder what they did to take that kind of quest? *hint hint*

I can't see, why would Space Marine Chapter tolerate mutants, warp beasts and all kind of "bleh" stuff on their Homeworld.

Kill the Heretic,

abhor the mutant,

purge the unclean.

No pity!

No remorse!

No fear!

 

N00bs that rival well-trained specialists in ability and resources.

But still n00bs to marines standard.

 

And BTW, I would like to see how the SM neophytes rival Striking Scorpions in abilities and/or resources.

 

Do you realize that Marines aren\'t idiots and don't droppod in the middle of nowhere and then wait for their enemy to came after them.

...are you being beligerent and dense to test my patience? The drop troops were there to close off routes of escape after the target had commited to using them. The entire Siege of Denethos was a long-winded affair and precluded even marine-style tactics against the natives\' defences.

How could I know? Outside of the really unclear description, there is no indication, what exactly happened.

 

If part of your Chapter have fallen to the predations of Chaos, then there is something rotten in the state of Denmark, but not in the organisation structure.

...An entire Company plus the Chapter Master defected... the master of the chapter... that would be a sufficient catalyst for changing the order of things, IMO.

"A moment of laxity spawns a lifetime of heresy."

 

How many times I will correct this stupidity? Glaive is a POLEARM. Khopesh is a sword(or sword-axe if you want) and swords are nigh to useless in hunting.

Yes, I'm quite aware, however, the Anpu mixed the glaive with the kopesh and kept calling it a kopesh, pay attention.

Pay attention to what exactly? Khopesh is sword not glaive. Period.

 

This would require space-traveling first and if the Zazerus is backwater I can't see it happening.

What did the Space Marine Chapter bring with them? Space ships and interstellar trade routes? Not everything is said directly and more is implied without being shoveled down your throat.

Space Marine Ships are used by the marines, not civilians. Ad for the trade, well if there was/is something valuable then the trade routes would be here long before Dragons descent.

 

...Take a wild effing guess, the house rules hold a better clue, but the various hints of 'Dark Angels', 'mixed geneseed', and 'interest by Chaos and Eldar' should tell you everything you need to know: their geneseed is a splice of Dark Angels and Pre-Heresy Emperor's Children (Chaos? Eldar? Slaanesh? *hint hint*) material. Pay attention.

Again I don't see a reason, why I should pay attention to the rules. The IA is here to explain your Chapter theme, quirks or uniqueness, not the rules.

 

I should probably make you aware that it's very unlikely that anyone in 40k actually knows how to splice gene-seed.

And quite why a DA chapter would let everybody else pile in to train their successor is going to take some serious explaining.

Well, someone does, because the Revilers (IIRC) didn't pop out of thin air... just saying.

Relictors. Revilers are Ravenguard gene-seed.

[Ace Debonair]

Well, someone does, because the Revilers (IIRC) didn't pop out of thin air... just saying.

Heh. There's a few GW chapters that wouldn't make it through Liber, but it's their playground - they can move the goalposts at will.

The rest of us have to stick to stuff that definitely works, or the suspension of disbelief gets kicked right in the pants. :o

 

As for the primarch cults thing - that's actually not that hard. While the one in my signature doesn't have it in, my Infinity Knights had something similar.

Their motivation was simply a profound respect for the abilities and successes of each Primarch, despite clearly being sons of Ol' Gilly.

 

Now, the motivation can probably be swiped wholesale, 'cause the effects are different enough. :D

[CKO]

I dont see anything wrong with the name change, the space wolves change their companies name. I think the idea of changing your name to rededicate yourself to the Imperium is fine.

[Consul of Scorpions]

I dont see anything wrong with the name change, the space wolves change their companies name. I think the idea of changing your name to rededicate yourself to the Imperium is fine.

 

Oh, thank the Emperor, someone agrees :woot:

 

Big cities of dead people

Big cities filled with dead people and water processing facilities for a small-ish global population... it's the 41st millenium, brother, everything is big, pompous, and more than slightly ludicrous (please don't argue why this is too ridiculous for an IA because Titans are ridiculous too, pleaseandthankyou)

 

And thats precisely the reason for not doing it.

Uhh, you missed the point, which is, the Primarch Cults are precisely why this big political mess was done, in-character, however, one can only question the motives and logic of the High Lords of Terra.

 

Well, dunno. There is no date nor indication of it.

I was advised against using dates at an earlier time.

 

Not the Space Marine Chapter nor their recruiting stock.

Pure white roses doesn't grow in the middle of chemical stockyard. And if they does, then they doesn't smell like roses. Do you get, what I'm saying?

First, nothing in WH40k is a pure white rose, and a pure white rose IIRC is an unnatural crossbreed not found outside of a florist's shop... or maybe it was a blue rose... but anyways my point still stands, nothing is pure, just, or good; not today, not 39 millenia from now.

Second, some of the greatest have fallen short of the Imperial Standard, as low as that bar is set, depressingly enough; a single company defecting isn't the best mark on your permanent record, but neither is it the worst nor an irrecoverable shame.

 

It's still Chaos infested World, yet they are astonishingly pure.

By 40k standards, mind you, which is like

Sudan and Ethiopia mixed with the inbred British nobility

to make a horrible RL comparison that will require some brainbleach and a spoiler.

 

How could I know? Outside of the really unclear description, there is no indication, what exactly happened.

Then say it's not clear enough for your tastes, not [myPOV]"yu R dum, Spess Mahreens kill stuf and doesn't afraid of anything"[/myPOV] what am I supposed to do with that? Be rude and obnoxious and then get embarassed about acting so, that's what.

 

Again I don't see a reason, why I should pay attention to the rules. The IA is here to explain your Chapter theme, quirks or uniqueness, not the rules

No, there's fluff... with the rules, get it? There are the rules... and then fluff about them, right above the rules parts; fluff, y'know, the stuff an IA is all about?[/mild irritation]

 

'Space marine ships aren't trade routes'

Yeah, but the trade routes needed to supply the space marine ships? what about them? or that AdMech facility? a world, even a recently discovered and underexploited backwater system, generates trade potential, especially since there's more than two systems in a sector... ;)

 

But still n00bs to marines standard.

 

And BTW, I would like to see how the SM neophytes rival Striking Scorpions in abilities and/or resources

I'd like to see an eldar defeat a sniper rifle from half a klick (rangers notwithstanding). A force of newbie smurfs is still a force of highly trained specialists with some of the best gear in the Imperium at their fingertips. I refuse to continue arguing this silly silly argument.

 

I can't see, why would Space Marine Chapter tolerate mutants, warp beasts and all kind of "bleh" stuff on their Homeworld.

Kill the Heretic,

abhor the mutant,

purge the unclean.

No pity!

No remorse!

No fear!

 

...I'd like to see you scour a desert death world (known for sandstorms of all things) of all deadly lifeforms and nomadic recidivists with several dozen (or even several hundred) men...

 

Pay attention to what exactly? Khopesh is sword not glaive. Period

Pay attention to artistic license, I call it a kopesh even though it is a spear/glaive because I want to give you the right mental image, not spend a paragraph on the munita of a stupid piece of metal when a single word says the same darned thing. I am aware of the brain-hurtz being inflicted and I'm still saying "yeah, that's the word I'm using, I know it's actually a sword and not a polearm, deal with it". The Anpu went and took a kopesh, put it on a staff and kept calling it a kopesh because the author didn't want to invent a silly new word for a kopesh-bladed glaive.

 

Relictors. Revilers are Ravenguard gene-seed

Starts with an 're' has an 'i' and an 'l' in the middle and ends in an 'rs', close enough: 'Relictors have spliced/dual geneseed and I think it was an interesting quirk since we all know what happened to the Relictors and hey, these ones have traitor geneseed too, let's see what sort of cozy corner of Hell they make for themselves'

[Ace Debonair]

Hey, way to ignore my last post. :P

 

It's still Chaos infested World, yet they are astonishingly pure.

By 40k standards, mind you, which is like Sudan and Ethiopia mixed with the inbred British nobility to make a horrible RL comparison that will require some brainbleach and a spoiler.

Huh? We have 'inbred nobility' in England? No doubt they're even now eating all the crumpets and drinking all the tea. :P

 

 

Again I don't see a reason, why I should pay attention to the rules. The IA is here to explain your Chapter theme, quirks or uniqueness, not the rules

No, there's fluff... with the rules, get it? There are the rules... and then fluff about them, right above the rules parts; fluff, y'know, the stuff an IA is all about?[/mild irritation]

 

I just looked in the spoiler'd section. I didn't see any story-stuff in there. So, the non-player reader won't find any additional info in there. (which is a good thing, might I add)

 

I can't see, why would Space Marine Chapter tolerate mutants, warp beasts and all kind of "bleh" stuff on their Homeworld.

Kill the Heretic,

abhor the mutant,

purge the unclean.

No pity!

No remorse!

No fear!

 

...I'd like to see you scour a desert death world (known for sandstorms of all things) of all deadly lifeforms and nomadic recidivists with several dozen (or even several hundred) men...

Actually, a hundred space marines would be enough. That's one of the reasons companies have (roughly) 100 marines in.

 

Your lads would probably come down pretty hard on the chaos stuff when they found it, but everything else there would make a damn fine place to recruit from.

 

Pay attention to what exactly? Khopesh is sword not glaive. Period

Pay attention to artistic license, I call it a kopesh even though it is a spear/glaive because I want to give you the right mental image, not spend a paragraph on the munita of a stupid piece of metal when a single word says the same darned thing. I am aware of the brain-hurtz being inflicted and I'm still saying "yeah, that's the word I'm using, I know it's actually a sword and not a polearm, deal with it". The Anpu went and took a kopesh, put it on a staff and kept calling it a kopesh because the author didn't want to invent a silly new word for a kopesh-bladed glaive.

 

Alternatively you could just call it a glaive. It doesn't matter what sort of blade it's got, does it?

(Just an idea :P )

[NightrawenII]

Big cities filled with dead people and water processing facilities for a small-ish global population... it's the 41st millenium, brother, everything is big, pompous, and more than slightly ludicrous (please don't argue why this is too ridiculous for an IA because Titans are ridiculous too, pleaseandthankyou)

You do not understand, don't you?

IF the Necropoli are the ONLY source of water, then the water distribution is not enough. Humans aren't camels to survive weeks without water.

(And Titans aren't ridiculous, just people when they look at them out of context.)

 

And thats precisely the reason for not doing it.

Uhh, you missed the point, which is, the Primarch Cults are precisely why this big political mess was done, in-character, however, one can only question the motives and logic of the High Lords of Terra.

I didn't missed the point. I'm questioning the very reason for this madness in the first place. Seriously, for me its just cheap way to justify the unneccessary rules.

 

In fact, this part of IA is epic fail.

#A The Cults of Primarchs are just way to justify rules. IA IS NOT ABOUT JUSTIFYING RULES! The IA is here to explain your Chapter theme, quirks and/or uniqueness. IA is about STORY of your Chapter, not about RULES you are using.*

#B The story center about fall of their Chapter Master and the shame it causes. But when I'm questioning(Something is rotten in the state of Denmark) the very reason of his fall(=Cults of Primarchs, ), you keep on talking about different matters and defending absolutely useless changes.

#C The Cults are poorly explained and implemented. Mysterious origins is Epic Fail in 99,99% of cases.

 

*I'm not blaiming you, most DIYers do the same mistake.

 

Well, dunno. There is no date nor indication of it.

I was advised against using dates at an earlier time.

There is using date and using a date.

 

Using a date for official actions like Foundings, or using specific date is, to some degree, wrong. But using some time-indication is never bad.

 

First, nothing in WH40k is a pure white rose, and a pure white rose IIRC is an unnatural crossbreed not found outside of a florist's shop... or maybe it was a blue rose... but anyways my point still stands, nothing is pure, just, or good; not today, not 39 millenia from now.

*Sigh*

So metaphores are no good. Hmmm, lets put it straightforward: You cannot have astonishingly pure people on Chaos infested Planet. If you do, then something is terribly wrong.(Hint: Reasoning behind the idea.)

 

Then say it's not clear enough for your tastes, not [myPOV]"yu R dum, Spess Mahreens kill stuf and doesn't afraid of anything"[/myPOV] what am I supposed to do with that? Be rude and obnoxious and then get embarassed about acting so, that's what.

Make me favour and look at your IA and tell me what you have written about the Rout.

 

Again I don't see a reason, why I should pay attention to the rules. The IA is here to explain your Chapter theme, quirks or uniqueness, not the rules

No, there's fluff... with the rules, get it? There are the rules... and then fluff about them, right above the rules parts; fluff, y'know, the stuff an IA is all about?[/mild irritation]

Again, I don't see reason for looking in the rules section, if the place for the story/explanation is the IA.

 

But still n00bs to marines standard.

 

And BTW, I would like to see how the SM neophytes rival Striking Scorpions in abilities and/or resources

I'd like to see an eldar defeat a sniper rifle from half a klick (rangers notwithstanding). A force of newbie smurfs is still a force of highly trained specialists with some of the best gear in the Imperium at their fingertips. I refuse to continue arguing this silly silly argument.

And they are still under-equipped, under-trained and under-experienced by marine standard. The scouts are about sneaky stuff, if they fail in sneakiness, things go right into hell.

reff. Operation Market Garden.

 

I can't see, why would Space Marine Chapter tolerate mutants, warp beasts and all kind of "bleh" stuff on their Homeworld.

Kill the Heretic,

abhor the mutant,

purge the unclean.

No pity!

No remorse!

No fear!

 

...I'd like to see you scour a desert death world (known for sandstorms of all things) of all deadly lifeforms and nomadic recidivists with several dozen (or even several hundred) men...

Hmmm, because thats what they do or are expected to do. :tu: