Dedicated anti-infantry troop squad

[minigun762]

So I'm thinking of putting a troop squad in my army that is geared for killing the little guys and to help break up the norm of my 2x Melta/Fist squads.

 

To that end, I was thinking of either one of these 3 options:

 

1) 10 CSMs, 2x Flamers, Power Weapon, IoCG, Rhino = 235 points

2) 8 Berserkers, Power Weapon, Rhino = 233 points

3) 8 Noise Marines, Power Weapon, Doom Siren, Rhino = 240 points

 

All the squads are geared up and cost basically the same, charge in with a template or two if possible and then smack around the little guys. I went with a PW over PF so that 1) its diffferent and 2) better for killing T3 guys at I4/5.

[lord gunthar]

I think that option 1 is the best because :

 

You are killing hordes so 2 str4 ap5 templates are better than 1 str5 ap3 template.

 

Against hordes the bezerker ws5 means nothing as they are usually ws3, same with the furious charge str and int bonus, you will be striking 1st anyway and be wounding on 3s ( instead of 2s )

 

Extra bodies : more survivable

 

Csms get more attacks than the noise marines on the charge and only 2 less than the zerks ( 1 of which is a power weapon )

[Vissah]

I use the same squads as option one but then with a Power Fist, and I have to say it owns the hell out of infantry

[the jeske]

Against hordes the bezerker ws5 means nothing as they are usually ws3, same with the furious charge str and int bonus, you will be striking 1st anyway and be wounding on 3s ( instead of 2s )

zerkers are chaos ultimate anti horde unit . higher WS means fewer incoming shots . hit on 3 wound on 3 + you get 1A extra per each dude and their fist guy has more attacks.

 

flamer squads using csm are not very good. they do not do anti horde better then zerkers [worse you know you will want to follow up with a charge after using pistols and flamers , but against non meq you may end up with units outside of range or plain dead from shoting in case of IG or fire warriors]

 

as NM it is the same , only you have one less flamer against horde and better flamer against meq[but zerkers already force more saves and have it easier to wound then NM] . now if NM were cheaper it may have been an option . thing is they are not , they cost more then zerkers and chaos lists dont have left over points.

[minigun762]

Against hordes the bezerker ws5 means nothing as they are usually ws3, same with the furious charge str and int bonus, you will be striking 1st anyway and be wounding on 3s ( instead of 2s )

flamer squads using csm are not very good. they do not do anti horde better then zerkers [worse you know you will want to follow up with a charge after using pistols and flamers , but against non meq you may end up with units outside of range or plain dead from shoting in case of IG or fire warriors]

 

I thought about something like that but what about relying more on using the template weapons with rapid firing instead of charging?

 

Against anything that doesn't have FC, I think be better.

[Supreme Overlord]

I was going to add a double-flamer-rhino squad eventually, too. Except with a power fist, in case something vehicular comes by and nothing else can take it out. :lol:

 

I would go for option 1 personally, as they can still cause a fair bit of damage from shooting AND assault, so unlike the Berzerkers they wont be wasting one turn disembarking. I'm not sure on the mathhammer though, the 'zerkers may dish out more wounds in the long run, in which case they may be the way to go.

[Zhukov]

Berzerkers any time. This is simply the result from the rules in the rule book: If you win big in combat you wipe them, or you force a ton of No Retreat! saves which pretty much doubles the amount of wounds you did.

If you only take them for anti hord/light troop Power Sword might not even be needed, although it helps against FnP Gaunts I guess.

 

You could get 10 Berzerkers in a rhino for 245 points.

 

Flamers are good and easier to use though. You have a bigger threat range because you can simply hop out and fire. (about 20" effective flame range)

However this is bound to leave some stuff alive. Also, if you do this I suggest Plague Marines for it:

7 Man; 2 flamers in a rhino. 206 points.

Slightly lower damage output, but in combat this is madeup by the fact that they wont get any return damage (so you do less wounds, but get less back too).

 

The problem with using CSM/Noise marines/Plagues is that they arent good at taking on 1 particular Horde unit very wel: Ork mobs. You need to get the charge on this unit either way, as you wont kill 30 man with shooting so you'll end up in combat. As you need to charge flamers become impractical and Berzerkers just hit the hardest on the charge.

 

Overall Berzerkers work against any kind of Horde unit. Actually...with a Fist they work against pretty much any kind of unit ^^

 

So option 2 if I have to choose.

 

Edit: I see a lot of people always talking about Berzerkers hopping out and standing there for a turn... I pretty much always leave them in the rhino and then next turn get out of the rhino (before it moves of course), walk + charge. Thats 2" from the hatch + almost 1" from the base (0,9999999) + 6" walking + 6" charging = almost 15" in total. If there is no need to get out of a rhino, stay in it really.

[minigun762]

The problem with using CSM/Noise marines/Plagues is that they arent good at taking on 1 particular Horde unit very wel: Ork mobs. You need to get the charge on this unit either way, as you wont kill 30 man with shooting so you'll end up in combat. As you need to charge flamers become impractical and Berzerkers just hit the hardest on the charge.

 

Overall Berzerkers work against any kind of Horde unit. Actually...with a Fist they work against pretty much any kind of unit ^^

 

My worry with the Berserkers is that, just like Orks, they seem so reliant on getting that charge in and my worry is how less effective are they without it.

To this point I've only run CSMs which have the flexibility to either rapid fire or charge so I don't feel totally useful if I can't charge.

[Vissah]

The problem with using CSM/Noise marines/Plagues is that they arent good at taking on 1 particular Horde unit very wel: Ork mobs. You need to get the charge on this unit either way, as you wont kill 30 man with shooting so you'll end up in combat. As you need to charge flamers become impractical and Berzerkers just hit the hardest on the charge.

 

Overall Berzerkers work against any kind of Horde unit. Actually...with a Fist they work against pretty much any kind of unit ^^

 

My worry with the Berserkers is that, just like Orks, they seem so reliant on getting that charge in and my worry is how less effective are they without it.

To this point I've only run CSMs which have the flexibility to either rapid fire or charge so I don't feel totally useful if I can't charge.

 

This is the reason why I chose the standard Marine squad, berzerkers need to get the charge in order to make them excell sure they still hit most targets on 3's when they get charged but they are just strenght 4 then.

Dont get me wrong I love my Berzerkers, I use 10 with Power Fist in a Land Raider so most of the time mine will get the charge and the Marines will do the rest.

The Marines are just more versatile and can still rapid fire and dont have to get out of cover when they are claiming an objective when the enemy comes for them since they can rapid fire.

 

This is just mine experience.

[Zhukov]

The problem with using CSM/Noise marines/Plagues is that they arent good at taking on 1 particular Horde unit very wel: Ork mobs. You need to get the charge on this unit either way, as you wont kill 30 man with shooting so you'll end up in combat. As you need to charge flamers become impractical and Berzerkers just hit the hardest on the charge.

 

Overall Berzerkers work against any kind of Horde unit. Actually...with a Fist they work against pretty much any kind of unit ^^

 

My worry with the Berserkers is that, just like Orks, they seem so reliant on getting that charge in and my worry is how less effective are they without it.

To this point I've only run CSMs which have the flexibility to either rapid fire or charge so I don't feel totally useful if I can't charge.

Well I can only say that I never really have much problems with getting the charge. Well let me put it like this: I never wished I had taken CSM instead of berzerkers, not even when they didnt get the charge once. But part of this is because I field them with a powerfist, even when getting charged the Powerfist does still a lot of damage. To horde... well you'll still have 3 attacks each when getting charged. Sure its nowhere as good as charging yourself, and you still kinda pay for furious charge. But they arent suddenly useless.

Personally I'm used to either getting the charge, or being out of charge range for my oponent too. In other words: either I charge, or nobody charges. Yes this requires some patience sometimes, its not a unit like CSM which you can just drop out of their rhino and start doing things.

 

If you know of yourself that you are not that good at guessing ranges (1 inch precise at least), then normal CSM are probably the safer choice to go with.

[minigun762]

If you know of yourself that you are not that good at guessing ranges (1 inch precise at least), then normal CSM are probably the safer choice to go with.

 

I would say that I'm not that accurate at guessing ranges but its something I need to improve on I know.

 

For the sake of arguement, what about going the other way and including a shooting unit instead of the various flame/assault types that I have listed above?

 

The best I can come up with is 9-10 Sonic Blaster Noise Marines without a Rhino which means its either 225 or 250 points which is right in the same area as far as cost go.

[Zhukov]

I'm against that. If you cant deny cover saves reliably, then shooting is largely innefective against hordes; its as simple as that I'm afraid. You need to take advantage of their crappy armour, they are so cheap because of that. For example noise marines with sonic blasters. Even a full squad would generate 30 shots when standing still = 5 dead orks in cover. 1 flamer hit almost gets that amount of wounds!

[minigun762]

Even a full squad would generate 30 shots when standing still = 5 dead orks in cover. 1 flamer hit almost gets that amount of wounds!

 

True but the NM would get multiple turns of fire in compared to the 1 turn of flame and assault.

 

And of course sometimes there are units that you just don't want to assault like Genestealers or the new Wyches and gunning them down at range is the safer option.

[Zhukov]

Sure, they'll get multiple turns; but they need it too! Berzerkers can often kill that same unit in 1 turn, so they'll be able to get to some other unit the turn after that.

 

Genestealers? They have no frags. You can just hop into cover and shoot at them with bolt pistols, they'll die if they charge you. (The broadlord gets to swing though if he fields that, but you'll still inflict much more wounds so you'll kill him most likely. More so if you take a fist which should only hit him.)

 

Wyches... Hmm they arent that scary to be honest. You can take them on the charge I think. They pretty much pay a lot for their 4+ invulnerable save, which isnt that usefull against a bucket of berzerker attacks.

 

Really, berzerkers work against any unit which costs about the same as them :)

[minigun762]

Really, berzerkers work against any unit which costs about the same as them :lol:

 

Sounds like I have my answer. :D

 

Just to satisfy my own curiousity, I wanted to see how good/bad a Berserker squad would handle being charged, in this case by a 30 strong Ork mob of Boyz. Lets say its against 10 normal Berserkers for simplicity.

 

30 Slugga Boyz vs 10 Berserkers

 

KB = 30 attacks = 20 hits = 10 wounds = 8.3 dead Orks (round to 8)

Orks = 88 attacks = 44 hits = 22 wounds = 7.3 dead KB (round to 7)

 

22 Slugga Boyz vs 3 Berserkers

KB = 9 attacks = 6 hits = 3 wounds = 2.5 dead Orks (round to 3)

Orks = 57 attacks = 28.5 hits (round to 29) = 9.5 wounds (round to 10) = 3.3 dead KB (round to 3)

 

So without the charge and no shooty, 10 Berserkers would die and leave 19 Orks. Pretty bad but it is a worst case scenario to be fair.

[Zhukov]

Yeah thats really a worst case scenario. In real its even worse, as there will be Power Klaw Nob normally too... But CSM or Noise marines wont fair any better :)

 

Have you done the same when you get the charge? Leaving shooting out of it:

 

40 Attacks from the Berzerkers = 15 Dead orks.

45 Attacks from the Orks = 2 or 3 Dead Berzerkers.

 

They'll take another 12 or so fearless wounds, bringing them down to 3 Orks. Next round you'll wipe them and you'll be standing with 7 or 8 Berzerkers alive in your turn. Ready to charge some other unit.

 

A 10 Man Plague marine squad actually does (maybe not surprisingly) very well against a charging Mob of Orks (assuming they charge the plagues which are in cover and so hit first) :

20 Attack from the plagues = 4 Dead orks.

78 Attacks from the Orks = 2 Dead Plague Marines.

 

Hooray for the Plague Marines ^^ They are such an awesome tarpitting unit heh.

[minigun762]

Yeah thats really a worst case scenario. In real its even worse, as there will be Power Klaw Nob normally too... But CSM or Noise marines wont fair any better :P

 

I think the morale of the story is more about not letting mobz of 30 Boyz get the charge <_<

 

Seriously though, it appears that I need to pick up a box of Berserkers in the near future. On that topic though, what do people think of going with 10 naked ones over the standard 8/Power Fist Champion assuming I have Power Fists elsewhere?

[lord gunthar]

Seriously though, it appears that I need to pick up a box of Berserkers in the near future. On that topic though, what do people think of going with 10 naked ones over the standard 8/Power Fist Champion assuming I have Power Fists elsewhere?

 

I am going to aswell after zhukov made it very clear that berzerkers are better.

 

I would say use the fist so you can't get tarpitted by walkers, but i have hardly used berzerkers so i wouldn't know.

[Zhukov]

Always the powerfist, simply because the Skull Champion is so good at wielding it heh. No but really, WS5 and 3 attacks base goes a long way. Couple that with possibly getting S9 on the charge and you got yourselves a winner. Most powerfists are pretty hit or miss, but not this one. This one is just 'hit' almost all the time. I would rather drop a powerfist somewhere else than not getting one in a Berzerker squad. It decreases their power a little against light troops, but its awesome against pretty much everything else.

[Vissah]

Take a fist I use it on every Champion in my army and on the Skull Champion it is pure ownage.

 

Also a Power Weapon strikes with the same initiative, if you make more wounds then models they can allocate the Power Weapon wounds on the normal wounds and that way the Power Weapon kills a lot les then the wounds that he does.

 

Power Fist all the way it is the answer to everything :)

[Ulfast]

Except if you have the mark of Slannesh, then it is a good way to go with power weapon. Always nice to cut down 2-3 marines before they can strike back at you :P

[Vissah]

True but they wont do as much wounds as Berzerks so then a Power Weapon is more viable.

[Zhukov]

In my opinion Power Weapons pretty much just suck. Lately I regret the fact that I never wrote some kind of guide with my thoughts in it, as I'm writing a lot of things which I wrote before:

 

Berzerkers and power weapons. Pretty much the only advantage is that it strikes at I5 on the charge instead of the I1 of the powerfist right? Well let me show what this means against a normal 10 man Marine squad:

 

28 Attacks from your normal Berzerkers equal 12 or 13 wounds.

5 Attacks from your Sword Skull Champion equals 2 wounds.

 

Now the total amount of wounds is 14 or 15. Without the Sword its 12 or 13. This means the Marine player still only has to put 1 normal wound on his most precious models (powerfist, powersword or some other close combat model). In other words you do not increase the chances of killing that powerfist.

Even worse, those 2 wounds from the Powersword will both be put on a model which is wielding a flamer or meltagun... So you effectively kill maybe 1 or 2 normal marines more than normal. Well those arent threateting your Berzerkers in the first place. Thats at most 1 save extra you'll be taking.

 

Now what does the Powerfist do? It inflicts 2 wounds after your normal wounds have been resolved already. In other words, they cannot be stuck on the model. You'll always inflict maximum damage with a powerfist for this reason (assuming it survises to swing).

 

This applies to non I5 units also of course, its gets even worse there. (now you wont even get hit less)

 

On top of this:

-Powerfist has more plain damage.

-Powerfist lets you threaten pretty much everything. It finishes off wounded MC's reliably. Instead of hoping to roll those 6's to wound. Walkers are still there too.

-Instakilling T3/T4 Models. This is awesome. If you charge a unit you can just allocate your normal attacks at the unit and your powerfist attacks to the IC if they have it.

 

I just see no reason at all to take powersword (in a normal list). I would rather have no champion at all then. For me its powerfist or nothing. In theory Power Swords are dissapointing and in real I always get this confirmed.

[Ulfast]

Intersting view Zhukov. I never saw it like that but I think your analys is correct. Makes me gonna rethink my own armylist. :lol:

[minigun762]

Now the total amount of wounds is 14 or 15. Without the Sword its 12 or 13. This means the Marine player still only has to put 1 normal wound on his most precious models (powerfist, powersword or some other close combat model). In other words you do not increase the chances of killing that powerfist.

Even worse, those 2 wounds from the Powersword will both be put on a model which is wielding a flamer or meltagun... So you effectively kill maybe 1 or 2 normal marines more than normal. Well those arent threateting your Berzerkers in the first place. Thats at most 1 save extra you'll be taking.

 

Now what does the Powerfist do? It inflicts 2 wounds after your normal wounds have been resolved already. In other words, they cannot be stuck on the model. You'll always inflict maximum damage with a powerfist for this reason (assuming it survises to swing).

 

I'll admit that I've never thought about it in order and really considered the various initiative steps. Instead I tend to simplify it down to just the expected kills.

 

Speaking of a person who is already a big fan of the Power Fist, I think Zhukov's arguement really sealed the deal.