Black Legion in the UM movie?

[lord gunthar]

I saw another trailer on youtube that made it look the opposite of this one, black legionaires sything down ultras.

 

I going to buy it anyway regardless of who wins/losses, i just hope the plot is good and the action not too one sided.

[Gree]

Which is still odd because even a single one of them should be his equal, or better.

The same goes for BL fiction that suffer from favouritism, I am looking at you Uriel Ventris and the Paper-, sorry, Iron Warriors.

 

As much as I would hate to defend the trailer I would point out that not all Chaos Marines are 10,000 year old elite veterans. For example, the Heresy was a mere century ago for Talos and co. (Going by comments in Shadow Knight and Soul Hunter I'm guessing Talos is about 130-140) and many others are recently uplifted Astartes. It's perfectly possible that a experianced Captain like Severus could own those guys.

 

Of course that does not really excuse the mindless charge into enemy guns.

[Brother Nihm]

True,

But they are a new addition to the universe and the old Codex fluff states otherwise, particularly that of Chosen and Veterans, now if each Chosen is almost the equal of a Chaos Lord, what does that make a Legionnaire or a Veteran?

 

I imagine that if you serve under Abaddon, you won't be a pushover with regards to combat skills. He doesn't tolerate pushovers.

If you serve under Abaddon, chances are that you are either one of the original Legionnaires, or you are a new recruit helped into the world as a Chaos Space Marine by Bile.

If you are one of the first, my original point stands.

If you are the latter, chances are then that you are pushed into one of the hardest training regimens in the 40K universe, because, see above.

 

The end result shouldn't be Chaos Space Marines falling like dominoes in any case, and it certainly shouldn't be mindless legionnaires charging into enemy guns, unsupported, before getting chopped to bits with ease by a single upstart loyalist dog.

 

A head to head fight involving SM and CSM would (and should) be one of the most brutal of fights, for both sides.

And this is without stuff like mutations, gifts, marks, blessings, unholy wargear, etc.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[Hellios]

As much as I would hate to defend the trailer I would point out that not all Chaos Marines are 10,000 year old elite veterans. For example, the Heresy was a mere century ago for Talos and co. (Going by comments in Shadow Knight and Soul Hunter I'm guessing Talos is about 130-140) and many others are recently uplifted Astartes. It's perfectly possible that a experianced Captain like Severus could own those guys.

 

Of course that does not really excuse the mindless charge into enemy guns.

 

Yes and although he may not have the experiance of some of those in the warp he is a Great Crusade and Horus Heresy vet and that has to count for something...

[Gree]

True,

But they are a new addition to the universe and the old Codex fluff states otherwise, particularly that of Chosen and Veterans, now if each Chosen is almost the equal of a Chaos Lord, what does that make a Legionnaire or a Veteran?

 

Where does the old codex fluff state otherwise? I can't find anything stating that every single Chaos Marine is ten thousand years old. As far as I have known the time dialation was back even then.

 

However it's a moot point. This movie was written after the new codex in any case.

 

I imagine that if you serve under Abaddon, you won't be a pushover with regards to combat skills. He doesn't tolerate pushovers.

 

True, however getting killed by an experianced veteran Captain does not automatically make one a pushover.

 

If you are the latter, chances are then that you are pushed into one of the hardest training regimens in the 40K universe, because, see above.

 

Yes, however in this case going by my impressions Severus looks like he is an old veteran at the least. I would expect him to chop apart new recruits like that at the least.

 

The end result shouldn't be Chaos Space Marines falling like dominoes in any case, and it certainly shouldn't be mindless legionnaires charging into enemy guns, unsupported, before getting chopped to bits with ease by a single upstart loyalist dog.

 

A head to head fight involving SM and CSM would (and should) be one of the most brutal of fights, for both sides.

And this is without stuff like mutations, gifts, marks, blessings, unholy wargear, etc.

 

Of course I agree with you in most of that. However Severus is hardly a normal Space Marine going by his rank and age.

 

Yes and although he may not have the experiance of some of those in the warp he is a Great Crusade and Horus Heresy vet and that has to count for something...

 

And yet they had a rather narrow win against the Blood Angels at the end there.

[Skirax]

There are some scenes where you go, 'Oh, fair enough,' like when the Blue shoots a Legionnaire in the head, or when one guns down a Legionnaire from point-blank, but when two L's are downed by a single B with his arms out, well....

 

The Chaos Marines, if they're going for a charge, should be charging full pelt, not jogging along like the ones in the trailer.

[Brother Ambroz]

True,

But they are a new addition to the universe and the old Codex fluff states otherwise, particularly that of Chosen and Veterans, now if each Chosen is almost the equal of a Chaos Lord, what does that make a Legionnaire or a Veteran?

 

Where does the old codex fluff state otherwise? I can't find anything stating that every single Chaos Marine is ten thousand years old. As far as I have known the time dialation was back even then.

 

However it's a moot point. This movie was written after the new codex in any case.

 

I imagine that if you serve under Abaddon, you won't be a pushover with regards to combat skills. He doesn't tolerate pushovers.

 

True, however getting killed by an experianced veteran Captain does not automatically make one a pushover.

 

If you are the latter, chances are then that you are pushed into one of the hardest training regimens in the 40K universe, because, see above.

 

Yes, however in this case going by my impressions Severus looks like he is an old veteran at the least. I would expect him to chop apart new recruits like that at the least.

 

The end result shouldn't be Chaos Space Marines falling like dominoes in any case, and it certainly shouldn't be mindless legionnaires charging into enemy guns, unsupported, before getting chopped to bits with ease by a single upstart loyalist dog.

 

A head to head fight involving SM and CSM would (and should) be one of the most brutal of fights, for both sides.

And this is without stuff like mutations, gifts, marks, blessings, unholy wargear, etc.

 

Of course I agree with you in most of that. However Severus is hardly a normal Space Marine going by his rank and age.

 

Yes and although he may not have the experiance of some of those in the warp he is a Great Crusade and Horus Heresy vet and that has to count for something...

 

And yet they had a rather narrow win against the Blood Angels at the end there.

 

 

I don't think Brother Nihm is trying to say every CSM is 10,000 years old. I think what he's saying is at least a few of them would be and shouldn't be getting cut down like that. Nearly all the origional CSM that fought in the heresy era would be counted at least as vets by loyalist marines. I'm a little confused about the whole BA thing there though....Talos hasn't fought any BA yet has he? He didn't in Soul Hunter or Throne of Lies.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I don't think Brother Nihm is trying to say every CSM is 10,000 years old. I think what he's saying is at least a few of them would be and shouldn't be getting cut down like that. Nearly all the origional CSM that fought in the heresy era would be counted at least as vets by loyalist marines. I'm a little confused about the whole BA thing there though....Talos hasn't fought any BA yet has he? He didn't in Soul Hunter or Throne of Lies.

 

I think you need to re-read Soul Hunter. :tu:

[Brother Ambroz]

It has been awhile.

[khurdur]

the trailer shows our black legionnaires no better than petty guardsmen!!!!!!!!!!! but its a movie...aimed at a wider audience

than our BL books so it has to be more palatable, so that means no baddies been hit 10 times and still fighting :)

[greatcrusade08]

the trailer shows our black legionnaires no better than petty guardsmen!!!!!!!!!!!

 

10 points for an over reaction ;)

 

 

so that means no baddies been hit 10 times and still fighting

its pretty hard to when your brains on the floor.. tbh hes the only BL guy you see die, those in cc with captain serverus you dont see die, you just assume.

[Biaz]

looks worse than I had any right to imagine...

[khurdur]

oh well we still have the word bearers series that does the chaos space marines justice....

[caboosebe]

Try to see it this way: they are all into the "good" type of wargaming: It doesn't matter if you win, it's how much there is in the deadpile

[Sangneur]

I was excited about this at first, but after seeing the trailer... the chaos boys were derping pretty hard. I mean, I could slow that down a bit, play some tuba music or yakity sax to it and it would look too out of place. I mean, an all out charge? In a plain? They've got freaking bolt pistols in their hands but it looks like they don't even know how to use them!

 

At least they didn't slip on a banana peel, and there was no Sad Trombone

[Panda_]

Whatch the first trailer. You'll see blue's butchered.

[Walter Payton]

I laughed when the sergeant/company champion carved through those legionnaires and the killed one with a thrown knife...laughable.

 

Yeah same...something these movie people probably don't realize (or refuse to recognise just to please the Ultrafans) is that many of these Black Legion would be many times older and far more exprienced (and more warp-powered :D ) than the Ultramarines, who, considering they are somehow involved in every single major war at all times across the Imperium, would cycle through recruits faster than a Guardsmen being chased by a Daemon Prince. Since it is Astartes-VS-Astartes warfare, casualties would be expected to be high on both sides, but the Black Legion would realistically have a higher kill to death ratio.

 

My opinion anyway.

 

Don't generalize; I'm an Ultrafan, and I want them to be challenged. Hopefully the actual film will show the Legion in a better light.

 

By the way, despite their millenia of experience, the advantage you talk about isn't represented in the rules. Perhaps it is just balance, or it could represent the fact that A: time moves oddly in the warp; to the Legionnaires, it may only be decades or even minutes from the Siege of Terra, despite the time that has elapsed, or B: An Ultramarine trains, meditates and duels constantly (aside from a fifteen minute break before bedtime), whereas a Black Legionnaire does whateve he likes-possibly neglecting training for...executing prisoners, daemonettes or whatever else he likes.

 

My fencing instructor has been doing it for ages, but he still gets beaten (rarely, and not by me :P ) by younger people who have been doing it for less time.

[Brother Ambroz]

I laughed when the sergeant/company champion carved through those legionnaires and the killed one with a thrown knife...laughable.

 

Yeah same...something these movie people probably don't realize (or refuse to recognise just to please the Ultrafans) is that many of these Black Legion would be many times older and far more exprienced (and more warp-powered :P ) than the Ultramarines, who, considering they are somehow involved in every single major war at all times across the Imperium, would cycle through recruits faster than a Guardsmen being chased by a Daemon Prince. Since it is Astartes-VS-Astartes warfare, casualties would be expected to be high on both sides, but the Black Legion would realistically have a higher kill to death ratio.

 

My opinion anyway.

 

Don't generalize; I'm an Ultrafan, and I want them to be challenged. Hopefully the actual film will show the Legion in a better light. ;)

 

By the way, despite their millenia of experience, the advantage you talk about isn't represented in the rules. Perhaps it is just balance, or it could represent the fact that A: time moves oddly in the warp; to the Legionnaires, it may only be decades or even minutes from the Siege of Terra, despite the time that has elapsed, or B: An Ultramarine trains, meditates and duels constantly (aside from a fifteen minute break before bedtime), whereas a Black Legionnaire does whateve he likes-possibly neglecting training for...executing prisoners, daemonettes or whatever else he likes.

 

My fencing instructor has been doing it for ages, but he still gets beaten (rarely, and not by me :( ) by younger people who have been doing it for less time.

 

Ok first off its not our fault you like the smurfs ;)

 

Also our veteran abilities were clearly and well represented if you ever played against a 3.5 player. This movie makes it look like our boys are wearing paper armor and haven't quite figured out how to use the bolt pistols in their hands.

[Pigeons]

uhhh i actually think it looks pretty cool. cut some slack on the CGI, it's not easy to render a full length movie entirely in CG.

 

 

 

 

only gripe: that great line about "now get up and kill this beast" should be said by a chaplain, not an apocathary...and it's gonna bug me everytime i watch it now haha

[Brother Ambroz]

The CGI is fine it's the story we're talking about.

[the jeske]

An Ultramarine trains, meditates and duels constantly (aside from a fifteen minute break before bedtime), whereas a Black Legionnaire does whateve he likes-possibly neglecting training for...executing prisoners, daemonettes or whatever else he likes.

yes loyalist train , but csm are [well the ones in the eye or storm] in a constant state of war . If they dont fight each other , then they fight against other legions or demon . As the time goes , I have no idea why in peoples minds "times goes different" means slower . It could as well mean that its longer and even if it was true that BL from the time of legion war in the eye are dead or only remember the heresy era , then it means they have "just" the expiriance of the biggest crusade made by marines and the greatest space marine war ever fought.

My fencing instructor has been doing it for ages, but he still gets beaten (rarely, and not by me sad.gif ) by younger people who have been doing it for less time.

fencing has nothing to do with the art of killing people . yes a new recruit can kill a vet , technicly everything can happen . only when you look at who dies durning battle it strangly mostly the new guys .

 

Hopefully the actual film will show the Legion in a better light.

If the script writer tells us that he didnt have time to flash out all the aspects of the main character[aka ultramarines] in the movie , you think he will do it for the BL ?

[Supreme Overlord]

By the way, despite their millenia of experience, the advantage you talk about isn't represented in the rules.

 

Neither is a single Marine's ability to butcher scores of Guardsmen by himself. ;) Or the realistic range of most of the ranged weapons (except for flamers and some other ones), etc etc

 

As the time goes , I have no idea why in peoples minds "times goes different" means slower . It could as well mean that its longer and even if it was true that BL from the time of legion war in the eye are dead or only remember the heresy era , then it means they have "just" the expiriance of the biggest crusade made by marines and the greatest space marine war ever fought.

 

I agree, I mean, surely theres some Chaos Marines who have been around for tens of thousands of years (more than 10,000). Imagine how much of a beast each of these would be in combat -_-

 

After thinking it over a bit more, I reminded myself this is just a movie. I have seen very, very little movies that are realistic, and next to none that are 100% realistic. Most action movies seem to have bad guys that get slaughtered unrealisticly and ridiculously easily. In the Ultramarines movie, these "bad guys" just happen to be the Black Legion. (although I would disagree that they are all bad, and thats an entirely different discussion)

 

I would still much prefer to see Black Legion owning ;)

[Legatus]

yes loyalist train , but csm are [well the ones in the eye or storm] in a constant state of war . If they dont fight each other , then they fight against other legions or demon . As the time goes , I have no idea why in peoples minds "times goes different" means slower . It could as well mean that its longer and even if it was true that BL from the time of legion war in the eye are dead or only remember the heresy era , then it means they have "just" the expiriance of the biggest crusade made by marines and the greatest space marine war ever fought.

Perhaps after 200 years of fighting there is not much room for improvement left. A Marine will likely have seen everything by then. The loyalists' training doctrine also includes the tactical teachings of the past 10,000 years, which the traitor doctrine probably does not, which means a 200 year loyalist's experience and abilities should be somewhere between the 200 year traitor (who has less) and the 10,000 year traitor (who might have more).

[the jeske]

Perhaps after 200 years of fighting there is not much room for improvement left

aha and considering most cpts both in game and in fluff are older and still better then a regular sm , and dudes that are way over 200 are even better means this view is false. and sm may die in battle , he may even die durning training [slim as the chance is] , but generaly outside battle if an sm does something wrong he is still alive. a csm if he does something wrong is dead.

 

 

 

The loyalists' training doctrine also includes the tactical teachings of the past 10,000 years, which the traitor doctrine probably does not, which means a 200 year loyalist's experience and abilities should be somewhere between the 200 year traitor (who has less) and the 10,000 year traitor (who might have more).

ah yes of course . this means if a dude trains for 200 years he is better then a dude that actualy fought the whole time [oh wait no he fought for a lot more].

 

A Marine will likely have seen everything by then.

what do you mean by seen ? I seen the war in chechnya , I have seen more or less everything one can see durning a war . does that mean I am the ultimate soldier ? just because I have seen it . nope. am not even a bad one . if it was true that a sm after ~200 years has seen all and is ready for everything , then they wouldnt needed grey knights or deathwatch . they wouldnt need officers too , because if everyone has seen everything they would know how and when to act . just like eldar aspect warriors.

[Legatus]

aha and considering most cpts both in game and in fluff are older and still better then a regular sm , and dudes that are way over 200 are even better means this view is false.

Captains are not better because they are older. They are better because they are exceptional individuals. There are 100 Veterans and 800 Battle Brothers in a Chapter, and only 10 Captain positions. A lot of regular Marines, and certainly most of the Veterans, will be of the same age as a Captain. The background suggests that it does not take more than 100 years for a Marine to prove himself to be promoted to Captain. Marneus Calgar, for example, was not much older than 150 years when he was promoted to Chapter Master (certainly an exceptional case, but other instances such as Ragnar Blackmane or Uriel Ventris* come to mind).

 

*Not strictly canon.

 

 

ah yes of course . this means if a dude trains for 200 years he is better then a dude that actualy fought the whole time [oh wait no he fought for a lot more].

Loyalists don't train for 200 years. They are constantly at war. But the way loyalists are trained has more potential than how traitors are trained. The traitor way is pretty much the drill instructors telling the new ones "here is how we do things in this Legion" *blam* "now you try... Well done!", while the loyalist way is to learn 10,000 years of military history and what paradigm to apply to which situations. Traitors recruit cultists and turn them into Chaos Marines, and then they will probably be thrown into battle rather quickly. That is a good way to get new men fast, but it is also a very focused training. A new Iron Warrior Marine will be shown and learn first hand how the Iron Warriors fight. Loyalists are shown pretty much how everyone fights and has fought in the past 10,000 years.

 

 

A Marine will likely have seen everything by then.

what do you mean by seen ?

I mean that in a universe where there has been no technological advancement in the past 10,000 years for any of the major races, in 200 years of constant fighting against all of the enemies you will have fought in every imaginable situation against every imaginable enemy. There is little that will surprise one that has constantly fought for that long.

 

 

if it was true that a sm after ~200 years has seen all and is ready for everything , then they wouldnt needed grey knights or deathwatch .

I'll go ahead and say that Deathwatch is not really needed. Orks and Eldar are pretty much the standard enemies of Space Marines aside from rebels and cultists. Grey Knights are a nice addition, because daemons are quite different from mortal enemies. You can hardly train or collect experience in fighting blood thirsters. Also, contact with daemonic forces is seen as problematic for loyalist forces, as they are considered less protected form corruption than the Grey Knights.

 

 

they wouldnt need officers too , because if everyone has seen everything they would know how and when to act . just like eldar aspect warriors.

You cannot have 100 guys decide for themselves where to go and where to attack. Officiers and sergeants are not needed because the others would not know how to fight, but because the need for coordination. Aspect Warriors have squad leaders, don't they?