Mixed Loyalties

[Lady_Mournival]

So I was wondering if anyone out there thinks there may have been marines loyal to Horus in some of the loyalist chapters. Logically it's sound, Horus was a great military thinker and also a very charismatic leader, and there were marines still loyal to the Emperor amongst the traitors so why not vice versa? I definetly think their would be, but I would like to get other peoples' opinions.

[Death Consul]

I think there must have been. Among thousands and thousands of loyal Astartes, its naive to belive they were ALL 'good guys'. The fact Horus felt it necessary to 'clean house' with Istvaan III before proceeding with the rest of his 'bitch-slapping daddy' plan would support the idea that controlling an entire legion of killing machines isn't easy. Will we see examples of rogue Imperial Fists gunning down fleeing civilians? Perhaps not. But I think we'll certainly have some loyalists questioning wether following the emperor is the right move at some point.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

There may have been, but after Istvaan I doubt none would have gone against the will of their Primarchs. Horus was a charismatic, but I doubt he'd have beguiled many in Legions he didn't have direct contact with, and even in those there were opposition parties to his revolt. Once it became apparent that he wasn't above terminating even those in his own Legion for disagreeing, I doubt anyone in the Loyalist camps would have been swayed from their own Primarchs' wills.

[Lupercal Sanquine]

I suppose it depends on where the Companies are deployed. I know that the Iron Warriors were scattered peicemeal all over the place for garrison duties, but i wouldn't be too surprised if the Legions were scattered all over the place in various Expeditionary fleets.

 

When the heresy broke out, it's only fair to propose that if this was the case, several of those Expeditionary Fleets with marines from loyalist legions with them sided with Horus.

[Vodunius]

I vote yes. Maybe not many, but certainly a few. With countless thousands of loyalists theres bound to be at least a few Benedict Arnolds like Onaius Praid: a Red Scorpion Captain who turned renegade - along with loyal members of his company - after he was denied his rightful promotion to Chapter Master and subsequently joined the Red Corsairs. I can easily see similar happening during the Heresy.

[increaso]

I'm gonna go against the grain and say no (or, at best, very little).

 

For the marines it was a choice between Emperor or Primarch.

 

The loyalist legions didn't have to make that choice.

[Warsmith Aznable]

For the marines it was a choice between Emperor or Primarch.

 

The loyalist legions didn't have to make that choice.

 

I agree with this. The Space Marines lived in their Legions under enormous pressure to conform: to the chain of command, to their traditions, to the Primarch and to the Emperor. If any of them had sympathies for Horus or his annoyance at the Emperor abandoning the Crusade, and there's always grumbling in the ranks, when the Primarchs told their commanders it was "go time" I can't see any of the grumblers seriously contemplating jumping ship to change sides. There would have been too much going on, too much prep work and too close an eye being put on them at the news of the other Legion's betrayal. I don't think they would have had the time, and after word of Istvaan got out I think the reaction of even the most sympathetic would have been disbelief that turned into rage.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Yes. just look at the Dark Angles. Maybe they did not declare for Horus but they were not with the Emperor.

There #'s had to be small for the most part. I cant see any in the SW, RG, IW, Sal, likeing Horus overly but UM, IF, BA, WS, might have had a silent minority that like Horus allot.

[Hialmar]

I think the answer to the original question is no, although if it was rephrased to state "Were there marines influenced/turned by Chaos within the original Loyalist Legions?" then the answer would probably be yes although those marines were very few and far between. As someone previously mentioned the basic choice for each marine was not to follow Horus or the Emperor, it was really do I follow my own Primarch or the Emperor? I think from the standpoint of all other Legions, not including Horus' own, loyalty to Horus was more of a minor consideration rather than a determining factor.

 

In the case of the Traitor Legions the majority of the Legion members chose to follow their Primarch and not neccesarily Horus. They mad a conscious decision to turn away from the Emperor and to follow their Primarch into rebellion. I think pretty much across the board that had Primarchs not turned to Chaos then none of their Legions would have either, regardless of Horus' decision. Obviously based on what we know from Istvaan, Horus and the other Traitor Primarchs did not even have sufficient sway to assure all of their own Legion's members would turn traitor with them, so I think that clearly demonstrates how strongly the bond to the Emperor was for most marines, and only close and direct contact with the Traitor Primarchs and their most influential followers was needed to sway a marine from the Emperor.

 

In the Loyalist Legions you obviously do not have that close contact/relationship with the Traitor Primarchs to even start to sway marines to the side of Chaos. Even in the case of the Dark Angels it is not at all clear exactly what happened, but without the Primarch committing to Chaos, any attempt to move the legion or even very significant portions of it to that side was doomed to failure. All of this however does not preclude any individual marines from being swayed to Chaos, although I think that is more likely what happened rather than any particular loyalty to Horus, you probably had individual, weak-minded marines being influenced by Chaos in all the various Legions. But absent some hidden weakness in a particular marine, I think the loyalty to the Emperor and Primarch would override any indecision and prevent the marine from turning to Chaos. In those cases the marine of course would have to not only betray the Emperor, but also his Primarch and his brother marines, the combination of which would be in my opinion almost insurmountable.

[MRCHAOS]

Did Erabus set up warrior lodges in all of the legions, if so then there might have been a cuple. But I think after Istvaan III then all would stick by the Emperor and Primarch and see the error of there ways!

[ICHD?]

I think the hypnosis they go through would have removed any doubt when their superiors told them Horus was a traitor and didn't deserve their loyalty. Obviously, unless GW elaborate on the fluff regarding the Loyalists, its impossible to say, but as a random closing thought: they're not called "Kinda-Loyalists" are they?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I think the hypnosis they go through would have removed any doubt when their superiors told them Horus was a traitor and didn't deserve their loyalty. Obviously, unless GW elaborate on the fluff regarding the Loyalists, its impossible to say, but as a random closing thought: they're not called "Kinda-Loyalists" are they?

 

The psychoindoctrination didn't happen until after the Heresy. It's why Marines in the HH novels don't act or talk like the ones you see in other novels, who are basically brainnumbed automatons in comparison.

[ICHD?]

I think the hypnosis they go through would have removed any doubt when their superiors told them Horus was a traitor and didn't deserve their loyalty. Obviously, unless GW elaborate on the fluff regarding the Loyalists, its impossible to say, but as a random closing thought: they're not called "Kinda-Loyalists" are they?

 

The psychoindoctrination didn't happen until after the Heresy. It's why Marines in the HH novels don't act or talk like the ones you see in other novels, who are basically brainnumbed automatons in comparison.

 

Still, my point still stands. They're not called "Kinda-Loyalists" are they? Case in point: Ravens Flight. Corax tells his command squad to push off, they try and argue with him and he just goes "Nope, going off by myself for a bit" and they don't argue they just do as they're told.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I think the hypnosis they go through would have removed any doubt when their superiors told them Horus was a traitor and didn't deserve their loyalty. Obviously, unless GW elaborate on the fluff regarding the Loyalists, its impossible to say, but as a random closing thought: they're not called "Kinda-Loyalists" are they?

 

The psychoindoctrination didn't happen until after the Heresy. It's why Marines in the HH novels don't act or talk like the ones you see in other novels, who are basically brainnumbed automatons in comparison.

 

Still, my point still stands. They're not called "Kinda-Loyalists" are they? Case in point: Ravens Flight. Corax tells his command squad to push off, they try and argue with him and he just goes "Nope, going off by myself for a bit" and they don't argue they just do as they're told.

 

Your allusion of the use of hypnosis where hypnosis didn't yet exist is the fallacious piece of the point. They did as they were told in Raven's Flight because Corax is the boss and his legion bore loyalty to him as the founding root of their creation, not because he mindbent them into obedience. The fact that they tried to argue with him at all puts the case quite succintly that their loyalty was not blind obedience or any sort of hypnotic suggestion that stole the capacity for freedom of will. Your point about them following the lead of their Primarch is correct, the Dark Angels being a notable exception, but for the most part if a Primarch remained loyal his legion followed suit in total; I just have issue with the rationale behind it being because of some form of suggestion and not filial obligation.

[ICHD?]

I was under the impression that Space Marines were ALWAYS hypno-indoctrinated. What else would there be, aside from the Primarch Lovefest to stop them just going "Ok, thanks for the weapons, armour and genetic modifications, see ya later!"?

[calgar101]

None of the loyalist legions(and most of the traitors) placed their loyalties to Horus before their own Primarch and in some cases the Emperor. As soon as Horus went traitor and especially after Istvaan their loyalties were cemented against Horus forever.

[Badaboom]

Hypnosis is used to improve the assimilation of new information by the new recruits, as they have some years to learn a lifetime´s worth of warfare and Imperial knowledge. Of course they use it to reinforce their loyalty and so on, but not to the point of making them mindless servants, as we all know.

 

All the stories seem to reinforce the feeling that the link between Primarch and Astarte is way stronger than a mere genetic legacy. Perhaps it has something to be with the way the Primarch were created by the Emperor, but I guess the spirit of each marine is somehow binded to their Primarch´s.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

All the stories seem to reinforce the feeling that the link between Primarch and Astarte is way stronger than a mere genetic legacy. Perhaps it has something to be with the way the Primarch were created by the Emperor, but I guess the spirit of each marine is somehow binded to their Primarch´s.

 

 

The issue with that theory is that if that were the case, there would have been no "loyalists" in the Legions that turned traitor to be exterminated at Istvaan V. That "link", if it exists, wasn't enough to override the freedom of choice each Astartes seemed to have prior to the Heresy. There would have been no capacity to doubt their Primarchs, just as the Primarchs would have had no capacity to doubt the Emperor. In a way, it's almost a metaphor for the Biblical War in Heaven, where the angels loyal to Heaven end up losing their free wills at the end even though they won. :)

[TheDarker]

All the stories seem to reinforce the feeling that the link between Primarch and Astarte is way stronger than a mere genetic legacy. Perhaps it has something to be with the way the Primarch were created by the Emperor, but I guess the spirit of each marine is somehow binded to their Primarch´s.

 

 

The issue with that theory is that if that were the case, there would have been no "loyalists" in the Legions that turned traitor to be exterminated at Istvaan V. That "link", if it exists, wasn't enough to override the freedom of choice each Astartes seemed to have prior to the Heresy. There would have been no capacity to doubt their Primarchs, just as the Primarchs would have had no capacity to doubt the Emperor. In a way, it's almost a metaphor for the Biblical War in Heaven, where the angels loyal to Heaven end up losing their free wills at the end even though they won. -_-

 

Let´s remember than a lot of the loyalist were terran, so they fought with the Emperor, sometimes even BEFORE meeting his Primarch. Also, they can be linked to their Primarch´s but maybe some were even more linked to the Emperor. And for some, nothing state that it was "easy". I´m sure a lot of Loyalist fighting in Istvaan were uncapable of "believing" that their Primarchs has just turned against the emperor...

[The Shadow Guard]

None of the loyalist legions(and most of the traitors) placed their loyalties to Horus before their own Primarch and in some cases the Emperor. As soon as Horus went traitor and especially after Istvaan their loyalties were cemented against Horus forever.

 

That is exactly right and I would build on that and venture to say that all Astartes placed their loyalty to their primarch first (traitor or loyalist legion) Within each legion, given the wide range and society from which the astartes were recruited from, there would be marines of different calibre and conviction. Their primacrh's geneseed would give them certain tendencies but their own individual character also built on that. This would create oportunities for either loyalist or traitor to exploit. Garviel Loken character rebelled against his traitor primacrh Horus and was very different to his comrades in the Mournival while similarly Argel Tal of the wordbearers was very different to his chaplain brother Xaphan although both were loyal to their primarch and undertook horrendous sacrifices in his name.

 

The point I wish to make is that the majority of the astartes were utterly loyal to their primarch and it is entirely unlikely that Horus could have swayed morethan a handful all by himself without winning over their primarchs. Erebus, Kor Phaeron and Lorgar's schemes essentially involved turning the individual primarchs to their side and then infiltrating their legion with warrior lodegs or their equivalent syste insidiously. This allowed them to quietly identify those who would not be turned and use that information to wipe them out, as in the virus bombing at istvaan III(?).

 

SImilarly ther certainly would have been a handful to loyalist astartes who would have been potentially corruptible had the word bearer chaplains had access to them but the legions that remained loyal were all generally considered by Horus and Lorgar to be too loyal which is why Horus appears to have manipulated them far away from Terra.

 

From the fluff so far Horus appears to have thought that Ferrus Manus might have been bought over by his friendship with Fulgrim and when that failed he forbade any further attempts. He did seem to think that Jaghatai may subsequenty side with him.

 

My two cents worth....

[Octavulg]

Personally, I take the view that it didn't happen.

 

Traitor Legions were forced to choose between the Emperor and their Primarch. Loyalty to one and loyalty to the other had become incompatible. Loyalist Legions had no such conflict.

[calgar101]

I agree with you Shadow. The way i look at it is this. Average Joe the Marine in a loyalist legion like Horus, he is the Warmaster of the Imperium and favoured son of the Emperor. He's served alongside the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus and has seen the Warmaster in battle/ or heard accounts of him in battle. However at the end of the day Horus is not his Primarch, Average Joe Marine's bond to his Primarch is closer than any other bond(arguably) to anyone else. So when the news hits home that Horus has turned Avergae Joe feels angry at the betrayal of himself, his Primarch, the Imperium and of the Emperor. Now his Primarch has said that they are to confront Horus he pledges his loyalties and life to do so. His feelings of shock, horror, betrayal and anger overwhlem and erase any 'loyalties' to Horus in one stroke.

[ICHD?]

I agree with you Shadow. The way i look at it is this. Average Joe the Marine in a loyalist legion like Horus, he is the Warmaster of the Imperium and favoured son of the Emperor. He's served alongside the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus and has seen the Warmaster in battle/ or heard accounts of him in battle. However at the end of the day Horus is not his Primarch, Average Joe Marine's bond to his Primarch is closer than any other bond(arguably) to anyone else. So when the news hits home that Horus has turned Avergae Joe feels angry at the betrayal of himself, his Primarch, the Imperium and of the Emperor. Now his Primarch has said that they are to confront Horus he pledges his loyalties and life to do so. His feelings of shock, horror, betrayal and anger overwhlem and erase any 'loyalties' to Horus in one stroke.

 

Seconded. Corax, in Ravens Flight, basically went "Oh Horus, you were my brother, but now you've gone rogue so now I have to dismember you. Sorry and all that." Ok, he was a Primarch, but what is a Primarch but a super-charged Marine?

[calgar101]

Corax in The First Heretic on Itsvaan at the drop site when he confronts

Lorgar he shows no mercy at all when he's revealed to be a traitor. Nearly killing him.

. This in my opinion would be what the other loyalists would be like.

[BearersOfSalvation]

The loyalists never had to make the choice of 'Serve the Emperor and the Imperium, or follow your Primarch and legion', for loyalists, it was 'Serve the Emepror, the Imperium, your legion, and your Primarch, or follow another Primarch who turned against all that'. That's a much easier decision to make. Remember that some legions didn't even feel that Horus should have gotten the Warmaster's spot in the first place, and none of them felt any special reason to follow him over their own Primarch. He was in charge simply because the Emperor said he was warmaster, not because they thought he should be.

 

That's part of why Istvaan V was key to the Heresy having any kind of success - if Horus couldn't severely cripple loyalist forces, his own divided legions would stand no chance, even after all of his subterfuge with directing supplies and weapons to traitor legions. Even after essentially gutting several legions and arranging for the Ultramarines to be kept out of the fight, he was still outnumbered and had to make a gamble followed by a really desperate gamble (first storming the palace, then lowering his shields) to have any chance against the loyal legions.