artillery question

[greatcrusade08]

hi all.

i have a query or two about the thunderfire cannon.

 

as an artillery piece and crewman they form a unit which an independant character may then join, however the rules stipulate he cannot count as a crewman and cannot fire the gun.

 

However as an artillery unit when shooting at it you roll to see if you hit the cannon or crew.. but how does the IC fit in?

does the fact it is now a multi unit 'unit' override the placement roll and allow you to allocate hits or do you class the IC as a crewman for the purposes of the wound placement.

 

Also can the thunderfire crewmna fire his own weapons instead of the cannon, or must he only fire the cannon until its destroyed (im pretty sure its the former but want to clarify)

 

ta very muchly

[thade]

I don't see any reason why the techmarine couldn't choose to fire his own side arm as opposed to the TFC; all models can select the weapon they fire in a Shooting Phase, and the TFC rules don't seem to list it as any kind of an exception to that rule.

 

Insofar as the IC, he's a part of the unit; makes perfect sense that he can effectively soak a wound or two for the TFC if you want him to, but equally as much sense that if he's fired upon, the TFC unit is included in the resultant wound allocation.

[greatcrusade08]

I don't see any reason why the techmarine couldn't choose to fire his own side arm as opposed to the TFC; all models can select the weapon they fire in a Shooting Phase, and the TFC rules don't seem to list it as any kind of an exception to that rule.

 

is what i figured thanks thade

 

Insofar as the IC, he's a part of the unit; makes perfect sense that he can effectively soak a wound or two for the TFC if you want him to, but equally as much sense that if he's fired upon, the TFC unit is included in the resultant wound allocation.

 

But which is it and what mechanic do you use.. wound allocation or the artillery placement chart?

 

or is there a third option.. treat the crewman and cannon as a single model.. i.e one IC, crewman and cannon = two models, so if they take two hits one placed on IC and the other rolled for

[Legatus]

I do think the intention for the artillery rules was that in a roll of 1-4 you hit a gun model and on a roll of 5-6 you hit an infantry model from that unit, but unfortunately it says "5-6 a crewman is hit".

[Grey Mage]

hi all.

i have a query or two about the thunderfire cannon.

 

as an artillery piece and crewman they form a unit which an independant character may then join, however the rules stipulate he cannot count as a crewman and cannot fire the gun.

 

However as an artillery unit when shooting at it you roll to see if you hit the cannon or crew.. but how does the IC fit in?

does the fact it is now a multi unit 'unit' override the placement roll and allow you to allocate hits or do you class the IC as a crewman for the purposes of the wound placement.

 

Also can the thunderfire crewmna fire his own weapons instead of the cannon, or must he only fire the cannon until its destroyed (im pretty sure its the former but want to clarify)

 

ta very muchly

The techmarine can fire his own weaponry instead of the gun.

 

I would include the IC in the 'crew' area for the purposes of wound allocation. This is supported in the section on characters wich states a player may allocate to them if they are joined to a unit.

[pingo]

Isn't the Techmarine an IC anyway? Or does he only become that when the gun is destroyed?

[Tanhausen]

RAW, I wouldn't consider the IC a crewman... so he can't be shot or allocated a wound.

 

The TFC TM only becomes IC when the TFC is destroyed.

 

The only situation I can think of an IC joining the TFC and being useful... would be in CC, if it granted Fearless for example, so if you get assaulted and lose combat, you don't run away from your TFC...

 

Wierd situation.

[greatcrusade08]

RAW, I wouldn't consider the IC a crewman... so he can't be shot or allocated a wound.

 

page 49 5th ed rulebook

if they unit they join is hit, the controlling playercan choose to allocate hits against the characters just like the other members of the unit

..

 

if he isnt a crewman you cant use the table over the unit as a whole.. but the unit is still technically an artillery unit..

 

i believe this is a true grey area.

[thade]

Isn't the Techmarine an IC anyway? Or does he only become that when the gun is destroyed?

 

He loses his IC status while he's with the TFC, but once the TFC's destroyed he regains it; pretty sure that's how it works.

[Seahawk]

Where does it say he cannot be part of the crew? I don't have my book on me at the moment, but from what has been quoted if he is not a crewman, he cannot be hit by incoming fire when joined. Neither can he use his improved BS to fire the gun. This is the only thing I know of:

 

"Sometimes the player has the choice of adding leaders or additional models to the crew of an artillery unit. These models are part of the crew in all respects and may operate the guns as normal, even if they are otherwise slightly different from the rest of the crew." BRB pg 55

 

That's more referencing Orks and Eldar artillery though, where you can add more crew (grots) or a leader with improved stats (warlock).

[greatcrusade08]

just after that it says

"independant characters can join the unit, however do not count as crew and cannot operate guns"

 

So they are part of the unit, but not a crewman

 

edit: the reason i ask is becuase a character could be used to siphon off the od plasma hit or something

 

further edit

He loses his IC status while he's with the TFC, but once the TFC's destroyed he regains it; pretty sure that's how it works.

 

not quite, he doesnt have the Ic rule to begin with, he only get it once the gun is gone

[greatcrusade08]

just to clarify the 'grey area' in my mind comes from the contradicting rules..

 

if an Ic joins a unit you can allocate wounds to hit from shooting

 

if the artillery unit gets shot at roll on the table to see where the shot lands.. cannon or crew.. however the IC is not a crewman so it suggest he cant take wounds

[thade]

Okay, I read the artillery section and I think it works like this:

 

- IC is not a crewmen but is a part of the unit.

- Enemy firing on either TFC, crewman, or IC are firing upon the Unit.

- Allocate wounds to either the IC or to the TFC/crewman

- Roll to see where wounds in the TFC/crewman subgroup are allocated between the two of them.

- Resolve.

 

Weird, but that really does seem to be the right of it. This brings back to mind the strangeness of a Tau Battlesuits and their shield drones and how wonky allocation there can get.

[greatcrusade08]

im happy with that assessment, still not sure if the rule support it.. ill probably use this if it ever comes up at my games club

[thade]

im happy with that assessment, still not sure if the rule support it.. ill probably use this if it ever comes up at my games club

 

Well, I agree that the rules don't go so far as to spell this out for us (which would be nice), but there are only two other alternatives...both of which clearly violate the rules as spelled out:

 

1. Allocate per model (which is standard), ignoring the special allocation rule for artillery (involving rolling dice to allocate to crewman or piece).

2. Treat the IC as a crewman, which disregards the very clear rule that the IC is not a crewman.

 

Since there is a clear distinction drawn between crewman and not a crewman, and would allocation is expressed in terms of crewmen, I can't see another way of doing this that would not break any rules. Anybody else?

[Seahawk]

Nope. I concur (and it was my first suggesion!).

[greatcrusade08]

or is there a third option.. treat the crewman and cannon as a single model.. i.e one IC, crewman and cannon = two models, so if they take two hits one placed on IC and the other rolled for

 

ill think you find gents that i was the first to suggest it... :P

its a pretty good call actually, i was getting hung up on the contradictions

[pingo]

Odd situation this: I guess when they wrote the rules it never crossed their minds!

 

But yeah ... I don't like the idea that you could (if being literal) make your IC invulnerable to all shooting attacks ... that could be exploited horribly.

[thade]

Odd situation this: I guess when they wrote the rules it never crossed their minds!

 

But yeah ... I don't like the idea that you could (if being literal) make your IC invulnerable to all shooting attacks ... that could be exploited horribly.

 

Yea I don't think anybody would let that fly; well, not around where I've gamed anyway. :P You all should move here, it's nice. Decent gaming stores.