Thunder wolves as Lone wolves.

[Spazmonkey]

Hey all

 

I found an interesting article by Killswitch about Thunderwolves, it may have been linked in the past but I have not seen it.

 

Basically he is talking about TWC load outs, but near the bottom he goes into spending points on a single TWC model instead of a Lone wolf, very cool Idea, I would for one be very keen to try it out...

 

Thunder Wolves are go!

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The Mathhammer says.... no

^_^

 

TWC get killed quicker than Greys by 2 Dakka Preds.

 

TWC

12 HB shots. 8 hit. 4 wound

4 AC shots. 2.64 hit. 2.2 wound

6.2 wounds ≈ 2 failed saves.

50 pts

 

Greys

HB. 5.3 wounds

AC. 2.2 wounds

7.5 wounds ≈ 2.5 dead.

37 pts

 

If you load the TWC with a SS, to absorb ap3 hits, it still dies as easily to ap4 fire, and is a more expensive model to boot.

 

I don't know how tough a Lone Wolf is, mind you. But a TWC offers less in taking the shooting than you regular dudes do.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

NEVER TELL ME THE ODDS!

 

i run a lone TWC when i have points to fill, he is a great distraction. people freak over him, letting my GH advance just that much easier.

 

WLK

[Grimtooth]

Well he did mention that used like Lone Wolves would be akin to giving out free kill points which is the exact opposite when you actually lose a Lone Wolf.

 

That being said, running them as close support behind GH packed Rhinos sounds valid. They provide what I like to refer to as, "hardened infanty". My current choice of this type of infantry is a droppod full of WGTDA. They throw all types of hard decisions on your opponents plate.

 

So, I would be tempted to test run pulling my WGTDA unit in lieu of some Lone Thunderwolves supporting my GH packs.

[JMac]

If he could be shot at...

 

The tactica also says to run him out of LoS behind a rhino.

 

I would prefer a WGBL or WL to give him fen wolves for better survival.

[Grimtooth]

The Mathhammer says.... no

^_^

 

TWC get killed quicker than Greys by 2 Dakka Preds.

 

TWC

12 HB shots. 8 hit. 4 wound

4 AC shots. 2.64 hit. 2.2 wound

6.2 wounds ≈ 2 failed saves.

50 pts

 

Greys

HB. 5.3 wounds

AC. 2.2 wounds

7.5 wounds ≈ 2.5 dead.

37 pts

 

If you load the TWC with a SS, to absorb ap3 hits, it still dies as easily to ap4 fire, and is a more expensive model to boot.

 

I don't know how tough a Lone Wolf is, mind you. But a TWC offers less in taking the shooting than you regular dudes do.

 

Wil, mathhammer only ever accounts for the individual stats of the model and never for the circumstances that would be present. With GH packs rushing forward, a Thunderlord rushing up a flank, Long Fangs firing on everyhing, etc, etc. Mathhammer takes no other element into the picture, just individual stats in a vacumn.

[Wispy]

That's one of the most narrow minded responses I've seen from Wilhelm. I rarely find he ever has anything helpful to offer, but this takes the cake. Yeah, if you place a two wound model at the front of your army, it's going to get shot to death. However, THAT'S NOT HOW YOU PLAY A TWO WOUND MODEL!

 

Math hammer is fine, but in this case the way you're using it won't account for smart positioning, use of terrain, turn order, combined threat priority, or even turn order. Depending on what you're using for TWC, you could easily hid it behind a rhino or a landraider and block LoS.

 

 

 

 

A 60 point land speeder is even more vulnerable to a dakka pred, but I still carry two and happily reek havoc with them.

[littlbitz]

I frequently use a lone TWC model in support of my large foot slogging GH pack.

 

I find him very useful. The unit is 1 TWC with a Frost Blade and a Stormshield.

[Tsavong Lah]

That's one of the most narrow minded responses I've seen from Wilhelm. I rarely find he ever has anything helpful to offer, but this takes the cake. Yeah, if you place a two wound model at the front of your army, it's going to get shot to death. However, THAT'S NOT HOW YOU PLAY A TWO WOUND MODEL!

 

Well, to be fair, the original article posited using the lone TWC as a fire magnet in front of your Rhinos, so Wilhelm may have been responding to that particular scenario.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Wil, mathhammer only ever accounts for the individual stats of the model and never for the circumstances that would be present. With GH packs rushing forward, a Thunderlord rushing up a flank, Long Fangs firing on everyhing, etc, etc. Mathhammer takes no other element into the picture, just individual stats in a vacumn.

 

Sure. But mathhammer is not made up and is a reality. You can alleviate that with good generalship, etc. Knowing what mathhammer says is helpful. Even if my post has helped people to not stand the unit out in the open, expecting them to be super tough and have all the shots bounce off them.

 

That's one of the most narrow minded responses I've seen from Wilhelm. I rarely find he ever has anything helpful to offer, but this takes the cake. Yeah, if you place a two wound model at the front of your army, it's going to get shot to death. However, THAT'S NOT HOW YOU PLAY A TWO WOUND MODEL!

 

Math hammer is fine, but in this case the way you're using it won't account for smart positioning, use of terrain, turn order, combined threat priority, or even turn order. Depending on what you're using for TWC, you could easily hid it behind a rhino or a landraider and block LoS.

 

A 60 point land speeder is even more vulnerable to a dakka pred, but I still carry two and happily reek havoc with them.

 

Sure, but those things are hard to quantify. Lone Wolves have a reputation for hardness. It is being inferred that the TWC can perform a similar role.

 

Knowing that a TWC is easier to kill than Greys, point for point, is a worthwhile piece of knowledge. Many of you might already know that but others would not. Them being told that TWC are tough, whilst they are not tough if they are exposed to shooting, helps people deal with facts and figures instead of hunches and intuition.

 

Lets say I am playing Marines against your Wolves. Even if I can see a sliver of the TWC model, I can fire at him. To full effect as the Dakka Pred does not rely on removing saves to do it's thing.

 

I just went and placed a Dread [60mm tall] behind a Rhino. A Dread is the same height as Canis.

A Pred's sponsons get TLOS to the top of the Dread from 20" away. You can't use the Rhino to shield the TWC at distance. You can't use the Rhino to shield the TWC very well at all.

 

The reason why the Speeder becomes tough is due to target saturation. With all the other AV you are running, your foe only has X amount of s5+ shooting that he can direct at all your AV. You have overloaded his guns and so this allows your surviving AV to carry on killing his guys, hopefully further increasing the gap between his guns and your AV.

 

Things without an AV, like the TWC, Mephiston, Daemon Princes, etc. are all fair game for all those guns that cannot shoot your tanks. Those bolters who do near as sweet nothing against the Speeders actually have a legitimate target in the TWC. Especially if the TWC has a SCCW to increase killiness and a SS to increase survivability against ap3 stuff.

 

You playing the TWC wisely is great. But it doesn't always work out like that. Cover might not be convenient, your foe could be quite mobile and expose your TWC.

Bloods vehicles, Speeders, infiltrated squads with massed small arms fire, DSing or DPing units and DE stuff are all able to expose you with good movement rates even if you use cover well.

[Grimtooth]

Except all your post does is show that mathhammer only exists in a vacuum minus any other extenuating circumstances. It only presents a situation that places the stats of the TWC against the stats of the Dakka Pred. It discounts cover, LOS, previous shooting, other priority targets, mission, tactical knowledge, the rest of the army list, etc, etc. Then you conclude that the comparison you have made is valid for determining it is a bad idea.

[Brother Nathan]

as dakka preds arnt ap3 i fail to see how cover helps the thunderwolves in aforesaid situation... yes math hammer is flawed, but its a game of dice so what do you expect when theorising?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Except all your post does is show that mathhammer only exists in a vacuum minus any other extenuating circumstances. It only presents a situation that places the stats of the TWC against the stats of the Dakka Pred. It discounts cover, LOS, previous shooting, other priority targets, mission, tactical knowledge, the rest of the army list, etc, etc. Then you conclude that the comparison you have made is valid for determining it is a bad idea.

 

From Killswitch:

1 Thunderwolf: 70pts

Wolf claw

 

These are fantastic for supporting your grey hunter units. Deploy them behind a rhino and move up with it. They are cheap and expendable, but a huge nuisance to your opponents battle plans. Do they put up not only to deal with grey hunters, but an anti meq wolf, with a re rollable to hit or wound str 5, 5 attack load, not nice, especially for the amount of small marine squads out their *cough* razorspam blood angels *cough*.

 

1 Thunderwolf: 105pts

Stormshield & Powerfist.

 

These perform similar roles, but instead of deploying behind your rhinos, stick them infront. They are great fire magents. Use them as you would lone wolves, but in my oppinion, much deadlier. Throw them at the biggest, nastiest creature you can find and go toe to toe with it. This build is great for fginishing off things such as daemon princes or tervigons or small squads. They are also fantastic speedbumps, or a back up plan for taking out that impenetrable landraider (or at least holding it up for a turn). Mini Daemon princes is what I call them, hard to budge and a huge neusance.

 

Bare in mind that both these builds stack up your killpoints, so in killpoint missions, use them carefully. When facing a gunline, I would suggest useing them to draw firepower away from things that can stack you up a few killpoints, such as a full grey hunter squad in a rhino. Park it infront of the rhino or at certain angels, to provide it with a cover save whilst moving up. Obviously if the terrain is better suited, then by all means move the thunderwolf up in an attack role, utalising LoS blocking terrain.

 

I wasn't saying if a unit doesn't work according to mathhammer, don't take it. My post was in context to what Killswitch wrote. He advised that TWC can be bullet magnets. I don't think that is correct and I wanted to show that with mathhammer.

 

My second pov is this: I don't actually think even clever use of a single TWC is a great idea. It might be reasonable, but I wouldn't call it great. I feel any units can be exposed by things with an ability to relocate, some of which I listed. As the lone TWC relies on remaining out of TLOS, I hope I have constructively shown that is not reliable.

 

My take of what makes TWC an excellent unit: Speed, mêlée ability and durability. Two of them are inherent in the stats of the model. The last comes from not just the stats but being able to make the most of wound-allocation potential, which comes from having more than 1 model. If you can make that work with clever movement, excellent. I just think it is easier to buy that.

 

If you make it work, great.

It seems people don't like my view, and that is fine, and that I have used mathhammer inappropriately, which is fine too. No worries.

[slmellon]

as dakka preds arnt ap3 i fail to see how cover helps the thunderwolves in aforesaid situation... yes math hammer is flawed, but its a game of dice so what do you expect when theorising?

 

exactly, what does mathammer say about the day some one rolls all sixes?

[Spazmonkey]

Marshal Wilhelm, I would be interested to see some math hammer comparing the unit to a lone wolf rather than a unit of grey hunters...

While I dont swear by mathhammer, I think it can be used as a guide for a unit you have not tried before.

 

A lone wolf with TDA/SS/CF + 2 fen wolves is 105, which is tha same cost of the TWC with power fist and Storm shield.

Id like to see the math to see how these 2 units compare.

 

Also ontop of the math I think we also need to realise that a TWC unit will make it to combat faster and once in combat has a higher strength and toughness....

So maybe some math hammer to see how both would do offensivly against a TAC squad or something.

[Valerian]

Okay, so going back to the OP's point, most Space Wolves players at this point have tried a Lone Wolf a few times, and should be familiar with their value to an army list. Lone Wolves are really great "Disruption Forces". Here is a little extract from a Tactica that I wrote about Lone Wolves, long ago:

 

Additional battlefield role: Disrupting Force.

 

When on the offense, the attacker typically prefers to attack a vulnerable position with multiple units simultaneously. The objective is to overwhelm the enemy force at that point and then move on to exploit the advantage gained. If the attacker can isolate the defending force at the point of its attack from supporting units, all the better (there are a few handy techniques to achieving isolation that I will discuss some other time). The attacker is attempting to use mass by bringing his numbers and combat power to bear against a weaker and therefore vulnerable force at the point of penetration.

 

The desire to overwhelm the enemy is why most players adopting an offensive scheme of maneuver will send everything they've got at the defender at once, rather than sending in units one at a time in a piecemeal fashion. The defender would love that, as they could focus the fire of all defending forces upon each unit in turn as they approached in succession; this would place the advantage of achieving mass on the defender's side, rather than on the attacker's. However, it is unlikely that an attacker would operate in such a way, intentionally handing the advantage to the defender. Therefore the defender must attempt to disrupt the enemy's approach, causing the attacker to assault in succession when he doesn't want to.

 

In the real-world, this effect is often achieved with Disrupting obstacles (as opposed to Fixing, Blocking, and Turning obstacles), which are designed to disrupt attacking enemy formations, causing them to lose synchronization at the point of attack. On the battlefields of the table-top, however, we have few such obstacles (other than the occasional piece of difficult terrain) to use for this purpose. Instead, we have to look elsewhere to achieve our goal; enter the Disrupting Force.

 

 

Disrupting Force:

As explained just above, the purpose of the Disrupting Force, is to disrupt an enemy's attacking force, preventing them from bringing an overwhelming number of units to bear on your defending forces at one time. Achieving disruption will allow the defender to focus the fires of his forces on the attacking units as they approach in succession, rather than together.

 

The Space Wolves have a few good alternatives for techniques to achieve disruption. The first by taking advantage of weapons that can cause the Pinning of enemy units. Pinning is one of the few ways in which a defender can halt the forward progression of an enemy unit, and our Pinning options include Barrage weapons, such as the Whirlwind launcher, and Wolf Scouts using Sniper Rifles. Don't forget that you can force an enemy unit to take multiple Pinning tests in a single turn, and it is an excellent way to force them to go to ground, disrupting their forward movement, and potentially separating the unit from others in the attack.

 

A second alternative toward achieving disruption is in the Spoiling Attack. Other than Pinning, one of the only other ways to stop an enemy unit's forward movement is to Lock it in close combat. Relatively easy to do, choosing to make a Spoiling Attack, is often a difficult one for the defender, because it usually means the sacrifice and loss of the unit sent forward to execute the mission. Desirable attributes for a good Spoiling Attack force are that the force is small and cheap enough that it won't be missed when it has ultimately been destroyed, and that it isn't a critical part of the main defenses. Additionally, the force should have enough Protection to keep it around long enough to effectively Lock the enemy unit in place for a turn or two. A minimum-sized Swift Claw pack makes a pretty good Spoiling Attack force; it has good Mobility, decent Protection (with the T4(5)), decent Close Combat capability, and doesn't cost so much that they will break the bank.

 

However, there is an even better alternative at your disposal - the Lone Wolf. The Lone Wolf is probably the perfect unit with which to conduct a Spoiling Attack, and therefore achieve disruption of the enemy. Firstly, equipped properly, the Lone Wolf is robust enough to Lock down an enemy unit by himself, and probably do some significant damage before ultimately being overwhelmed. Secondly, even with a TDA, a Storm Shield, and a Thunder Hammer, he only costs 85 points, so his loss will barely be noticed. Lastly, and this is the fun part, it's our goal for this guy to eventually get him killed anyway! I don't think we could ask for a better man to do the job.

 

If we can agree on this assessment for the "optimal" role of a Lone Wolf, then we can start to consider whether a single Thunderwolf Cavalry model can conduct the same role, almost as well. I think the answer to that question is that he almost certainly can! If your intent is for a single TWC to stay hidden until they can use their broad assault range to engage a single enemy force, lock that enemy unit in close combat to prevent it from participating in a synchronized assault, then the TWC (like the small Swift Claws pack that I used as an example above) is a perfectly viable Disruption Force candidate. In this role, the TWC has at least one advantage over the Lone Wolf (greater tactical mobility). It also occupies a different slot in the FOC chart. In my army lists, I almost always use up my Elite slots, but often have spare Fast Attack slots available. However, the TWC has a few disadvantages when compared to the Lone Wolf, too, especially in a Killpoint game, in which having the TWC die is bad, but having the Lone Wolf die is good.

 

Like Wilhelm, I disagree with some of Killpoint's recommendations and uses for the TWC (such as using them as "meat shields" for Rhinos, etc.).

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Marshal Wilhelm, I would be interested to see some math hammer comparing the unit to a lone wolf rather than a unit of grey hunters...

While I dont swear by mathhammer, I think it can be used as a guide for a unit you have not tried before.

 

A lone wolf with TDA/SS/CF + 2 fen wolves is 105, which is tha same cost of the TWC with power fist and Storm shield.

Id like to see the math to see how these 2 units compare.

 

Also ontop of the math I think we also need to realise that a TWC unit will make it to combat faster and once in combat has a higher strength and toughness....

So maybe some math hammer to see how both would do offensivly against a TAC squad or something.

 

2 Dakka Preds against a t4 squad.

12 HB shots. 8 hits. 5.3 wounds.

4 AC shots. 2.64 hits. 2.2 wounds.

= 7.5 wounds.

 

2 on 1st Wolf, 2.5 on 2nd Wolf, 3 on the Marine.

 

The Wolves die. 0.5 failed saves on the Marine. 0.25 failed FNP rolls. Basically no wounds taken from the Marine.

 

If the Wolves have 4+ cover, they should still die with 2 wounds put on them.

 

If the Lone Wolf gets shot at again by those 2 Dakka Preds, this is what happens:

7.5 wounds. 1.25 failed saves. 0.6 failed FNP rolls. Perhaps a wound taken from the Marine.

 

The extra Toughness does not save the TWC from this kind of shooting. It is the 2+ then 4+ that keeps the Lone Wolf upright.

2+->4+ is 1/12. Excellent compared to the TWC 3+ or 1/3, even with the extra wounds the Lone Wolf will be taking for a lower toughness.

 

The Lone Wolf wins this one.

 

+++

 

TWC versus Tacs.

5 attacks on the charge. 2.5 hit. 2.1 dead Tacs.

 

LW versus Tacs

3 attacks on the charge. 2 hit. 1.7 dead Tacs.

 

If the Wolves don't die.

6 attacks on the charge. 3 hit. 1.5 wound. 0.45 dead Tacs.

Comparable on the charge if you add the Lone Wolf and the Fenwolves together.

 

The TWC wins this one.

 

+++

 

I like the idea of putting a Lone Wolf [without TDA] with PF or MotW +SS and Meltabombs into a Long Fangs Rhino, plus his two Fenwolves.

 

Whilst he won't be as tough without TDA [dropping from 1/12 to 1/6] he can cover the TT well and your foe has to blow up the Rhino anyway, making him tougher than just the 1/6 saving throw he has.

A Rhino delivering a Melta bomb wielding hard-nut? Sure you can ignore him if you want

[Spazmonkey]

Thanks Marshal Wilhelm

 

honestly Id be interested in play testing them all.

 

I think perhaps if you want a mobile lone wolf, then the TWC/SS/insert prefered weapon is the way to go.

If you want the Tank/hard to take down guy then LW/TDA/SS/ insert prefered weapon is the way to go

 

one unit gives up durability for speed, the other gives up speed for durability (When compared to each other that is)

[Max_Dammit]

thats why i have a wolflord in runic armour with them, just so i can save those autocannons on my 2+ if one gets trough

 

And if u use a lone thundermount he should be support more than front man, the lone wolf should be on front line.

[Prot]

I like the single Wolf Mount idea... I mean I've had some really fun games with just Lone Wolf in Termie armour. Basically counter attacking, and hiding behind Rhino's (the 'run' rule makes it work more or less).

 

I guess 'hiding' a thunderwolf is a bit of a challenge, but he'd have no trouble keeping up to a vehicle.

[Grimtooth]

I did some list tweaking and amd going to be running two squads of two TWC, one with frost blade and one with storm shield. They would soley be for support of my GH until and opportunity presented itself that they could safely move away to kill something on their own.

 

Now just on rolling dice to represent the role I want to use them is devastating. I don't think I will ever solo assault my GH pack again without one of my TWC units close by as support. Mind you, this is while I have thunderlord running around the table raising hell as well. Seems that it will force some major decisions on an opponent as to take out with the amount of threats.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I did some list tweaking and amd going to be running two squads of two TWC, one with frost blade and one with storm shield. They would soley be for support of my GH until and opportunity presented itself that they could safely move away to kill something on their own.

 

Now just on rolling dice to represent the role I want to use them is devastating. I don't think I will ever solo assault my GH pack again without one of my TWC units close by as support. Mind you, this is while I have thunderlord running around the table raising hell as well. Seems that it will force some major decisions on an opponent as to take out with the amount of threats.

 

Its almost as if you are running MSU doing it like that ^_^

;)

[Grimtooth]

I did some list tweaking and amd going to be running two squads of two TWC, one with frost blade and one with storm shield. They would soley be for support of my GH until and opportunity presented itself that they could safely move away to kill something on their own.

 

Now just on rolling dice to represent the role I want to use them is devastating. I don't think I will ever solo assault my GH pack again without one of my TWC units close by as support. Mind you, this is while I have thunderlord running around the table raising hell as well. Seems that it will force some major decisions on an opponent as to take out with the amount of threats.

 

Its almost as if you are running MSU doing it like that B)

:)

 

Haha, except they would be supporting 10man GH packs with Rhinos not tossing Razorwolfs about to just die off easily.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Its almost as if you are running MSU doing it like that ;)

:P

 

Haha, except they would be supporting 10man GH packs with Rhinos not tossing Razorwolfs about to just die off easily.

 

*Eres Badlands daemon to itself* :)

"Yes, just a few more small units, yes, yes!"

 

Muahahahahahaha :)