The blood angels codex

[Spagunk]

Basically, you use a storm raven like eldar use their own transports. They can load up weapons but at the end of the day, you bought it to transport troops. Is it as worthwhile as a Land raider? Not if you are going for speed which is what Storm Ravens are for.

 

I would imagine that SRs would work well with fast baal preds as a 1-2 punch. Run your preds up using scout to put the pressure then flank the SR so you can get a nice deep field troop (DC)/dread placement. Also there really isn't a reason NOT to constantly be moving with that thing. Hell, drop some close ranged speeders in there and watch your opponent get flustered at the plethora of fast vehicles running around.

[Necronsftw]

Its a shame my stormravens die like crap.

[Brother Weasel]

Its a shame my stormravens die like crap.

 

OB told you how to use them.

 

there is plenty of info in this thread alone to lead you (if not blatently give you several lists) to some good builds, it's now up to you to either build some lists, play them, tweek them for your game stile, or not...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you solely break the SR down by each weakness but do not take into account all of it's strengths as a whole then sure it will come across as a poor choice. Do you see people who play guard berating Vendettas and Valkyries as poor choices? The answer is no, both are a staple for IG. Only when you take into account everything that a SR has to offer does it start to shine. It's not by any means a must have choice but for it's cost alone it does have a lot to offer if fielded in the right list. I don't see the SR as having as much value in a razorspam list versus DoA which is an important consideration when noting it's merits but to simply write it off as a point sink is just wrong. You have to look at the big picture, not all the little pretty pictures. That's all there is to it. It might not work for one person but that alone does not mean it has no value.

 

0b <_<

[Crynn]

1) I agree with Black Orange on the Stormraven. Its value is often underrated in DoA lists, or simply "normal" builds with mixed choices(i.e. no spam lists). In mech lists, it won't work that good, but I don't like mech (spam) so hey.

 

Snorri

 

 

I couldnt disagree with this more. How is a raven better in a doa list than in a mech one? It makes no mathamatical sense and little sense anywhere else. It has no armour saturation to help it survive and unless you put it in reserves or deep strike it, it will be the only threatening target in the lis on first turn an WILL get shot down. Transporting jump troops isnt really that fantastic and if you transport a dread you just make it a bigger target. I have playe against 2 lists that took storm ravens. One it killed nothing cause he used it as a transport and i shot it down and his squads were then left in asault range for me, great. The second the player ost it 1st turn cause the massiv thing was jsut an easy picking AV12 flying vehicle that my pred loved, the only ption is to resrve it and the you loose all that firepower for on average 2 turns as in it turns up turn 3. Horrible. Its only use is a gunshipin a mechlist if you want it to do anything remotey effective. People who find it great must be versng lesser opponents because every time I see one it just gets put back in the case as soon as its deployed.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

 

Crynn your opinions are noted. Are you basing this on actual game play or your own brand of theory hammer? My results from gaming vary significantly with what you are saying. I'd like to find out why there is such a large discrepancy. It seems like you just dont like the SR. Saying people who are having success are playing baby seals is a copout on your part... same thing can be said about anything really. Going by what you said above I dont think you know how to use the SR properly.

 

0b

 

I have given mathamatical theoretical and in game examples of why it is not a strong choice, you have simply said to me. You dont think i know how to us it correctly. Tell me what im and others are doing wrong. I havent given any theory hammer this is from from what ive seen, played with and against and mathamatically determined. I addressed the things you have said already. I Think you just play i less competitive brand of 40k than I do because running it in a DOA list is rediculous. It will be one of very few vehicles and thus it will attract all of the high str weaponary and get taken down very easily while all the other weapons will fire at your jump troops.

 

Armor saturation is really just a basic mathematical principle and it works, your lists dont take this into account. If use it as a transport any decent player will shoot it down and its fire power will be wasted, you'll still have all your missiles which you have paid for in the ravens cost. I would argue it is you who doesnt know how to use the raven properely. Comparing it to a vendetta is rediculous. the thing is 70 points cheaper has better firepower once you have fired all the missiles and it has scout. It is rediculously undercosted, hence you see it all the time.

 

The raven suffers from trying to do to much at once and paying the points for all of it. If you could remove the transport capacity for lets say 40 50 points it would be fantastic. If you were to remove all its missiles for 30 -40 points it again would be fantastic. The point is you pay for all this and cant utalise it all. Razorbacks work and are common for a reason. They are a transport that has a heavy weapon system. similar to a raven in some respect, transport with some fire power but it differs because while you pay for the gun and transport capacity it can transport (move 12") then fire its weapon at full effect. There is no wasted components on this vehicle and nothing is left redundant. The raven suffers from this.

 

Why dont you see gohammers over crusaders??? You pay for weapons and transporting capability but with the god hammer you cant use them both, a crusader is much better able to bear its weapons while transporting. It comes down to very simple cost efficiency. I have been playing BA's for 12 years and with the new dex i have lost 1 game in about 30. I'd like to think I'm a good general and that accounts for quite a lot but I can tell you if my list was full of consessions like the raven there are some closes games I would have lost. I have 1 or 2 weaker links in my list, My lib dread and my honour guard that isnt tooled out like it should be but I play with them both because I converted cool ass models for them and I feel like I want to play a raven because they are just so awesome when built well but, from a pure forum side of things, where a player is struggling to win games I wouldnt be suggesting a unit that is easily not one of our strongest choices. Everybody agrees that assault squads are amazing, the pred and and attack bikes are amazing, that sang priests libs are amazing and there is a reason for this. THEY ARE! There is no debate about these things they can form a cost effective core to any BA army and this is where we need to guide struggling players, Not with some super toy that requires a veteran touch to perform when the same skills in a more cost effective unit would reap bigger rewards.

 

Now I humbly respect your opinions and you are obviously well respected on these forums however Uou haven't provided me with any mathamatical or logical reasoning why the storm raven for 200+ points is going to be a strong choice in this persons BA list.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Actually i have many times and youve stated you have read my batreps. Here is the survivability quotient for my Stormravens and a bit of an explanation in detail how I use them.

 

BoLScon

1st round vs. Pure jump infantry BA army. My opponent brought six full assault squads all armed with two meltaguns and an infernus pistol. Massacre for me. My opponent deciced to start the game with all his units deployed while I held everything in reserve. He could not get his troops into melta range of my SR. Meltaguns outside of the full 12" range are no threat. Simple defensive tactic - use other squads as a buffer to keep meltaguns and infernus pistols out of range. SR lasted the whole game intact.

 

2nd game versus Dingareth and his razorspam list. He also had a SR and two rifleman dreads plus two Baals if my memory serves me correctly. I held my SR in reserve and brought it out of range from his pair of riflemen dreads keeping them out of range. My SR pulled an alph strike when it showed up from reserve destroying Dingareth's SR the turn it came in. Vanguard crippled a pair of razors the turn they came in. My SR then delivered my Furioso and the Sanguinor into the heart of the opponent's line, they sliced and diced their way to victory. I believe my SR remained intact over the course of the game. Game result was a major victory for me.

 

3rd game versus Loganwing. SR was dropped early but delivered the Sanguinor and Furioso where they needed to be. End result was draw. I was up against a foot army so shooting with the Stormraven was a wash. Game ended in a draw.

 

4th versus mechar. Worst possible matchup, i lost but it was very close and my SR survived up right to the end and was then destroyed, but not before it was able to deliver the Sanguniour and dreadnaught where I needed them plus it destroyed two serpents.

 

5th game versus Sallies, massacre for me. My SR survived the whole game. Basically kept it outside of melta range the whole time plinking shots at the xenos skimmers. If my memory serves me correctly the SR survived the whole game and was epic. Another massacre for me.

 

6th game versus BA landraider spam list. I'm on a top table again and massacre again. My SR destroys three of four landraiders with it's melts. Again my SR is untouched.

 

7th and final game versus IG leafblower. Capture & Control mission. My SR is quickly immobilized but helps me to hold my objective for the last round draw keeping me in the final cut for the top 10 percent and placing highest with BA

 

So there you have it in a nutshell.

 

0b

[Mezkh]

SR is almost worth it's cost for the ability to get a Bloodtalon dread to where it wants to be alone. The ability to alphastrike if ever needed is just gravy.

 

I don't see anything wrong with reserving it. Basically means when it comes on you can assault anything in your own half if needed. That's powerful. Good use of reserves is key to good play. Yes the dice-roll is random (what isn't in this game?) but your opponent doesn't know if it's going to come on next turn or not and just the threat of such a powerful asset showing up next turn could lead to him making weaker, more conservative moves.

 

I don't think much of your mathhammer examples Crynn. 'Making back points' is a erronus way to play and construct lists - sure your combi-weapon could kill a twenty-point model (double it's cost) but if that model was going to be swept away in combat next turn then it's a wash isn't it?

 

Also wrong is your idea of breakdown of a unit's cost by it's constituent parts and having each part 'earn it's points' per game: it's false to state that because you used the Stormraven to alphastrike in one game, and in the other game it delivered it's payload first, that in both games 'points were wasted' due to opportunity cost. Flexibility is a positive attribute in and of itself and in many cases worth paying for. And this flexibility is the 'ideal' of Space Marine gameplay ( The same unit shoots what can out-assault it, and assaults what can out-shoot it, compared to Eldar; this unit shoots the best, this unit assaults the best, but is horrible in the other aspect) Consider a study of the popular for a reason Landspeeder with MM/HF. Powerful but completely opposed weapon choices, you'd never benefit from firing both in the same round, but what you're outlaying more points for is the flexibility of the Landspeeder to decimate a far wider range of targets-of-opportunity on the field.

 

You throw out the figure of the missles being worth maybe 30-40 points. Well lets say I give you a transport only storm raven with that saving. Then you draw Eldar in a tourney game and your chances are greatly improved if you alphastrike an important waveserpent early on. What did you spend the 30-40 points on that can can throw out 4 missles with AP1 and a TL Lascannon? A speeder Typhoon upgrade costs 40 points by itself for just two regular missles. A TL lascannon costs anywhere from 30-65 points depending on chassis. So we're looking at maybe 110 points worth just factoring in the weapons without the outlay for chassis. If you wanted the chassis for each weapon it could be around ~250 points for speeders and a razorback to give you that ability every game. Is it going to be key every game? Maybe, maybe not.

 

The thing is stuff tends to be heavily discounted when obtaining it negates other good weapons or actions available to you. Even if the Stormraven only alphastrikes once every 3-4 games, the upgrade actually likely still 'is worth the points/earns it's cost back'.

 

You'll know the saying 'looks good on paper'. The reverse applies as well of course, but the true test is in the actual results. It's why we perform experiments to test an hypothesis even if the hypothesis looks very convincing.

 

I would put a lot of stock in 0b's actual 'testing' with Stormravens in what appears to be a solid competitive environment and the reported results over a pure 'mathhammer' analysis. although 7 games is still a small sample size in a very variable environment.

 

The problem with most attempts at mathhammer is they simply don't take enough of the variables that the 40k environment to throw up - it's too hard to do so, the metagame is just too open. I wouldn't put any stock in points I've spouted off the top of my head above trying to break down the stormraven, it's just an attempt to show how futile stuff like that can be. Math is good for simple specific stuff like what's better between single lightning claw and powersword with +1 attack vs a space marine.

 

But trying to prove a question like 'is Mephiston worth his points' in a mathmatical logic type of approach is prone to error. You can present an argument like 'He kills X Space Marines per combat phase compared to whatever and Space Marines are the most popular army type based on sales' and think it looks good, but you're ignoring stuff like local metagame, Space Marines might be the most popular army out of 11 but they're actually only say a 33% total share, some of those armies might contain specific powerful counter-units to Meph available to Space Marines, and so on.

[liberate_tutame]

You'll know the saying 'looks good on paper'. The reverse applies as well of course, but the true test is in the actual results. It's why we perform experiments to test an hypothesis even if the hypothesis looks very convincing.

 

I would put a lot of stock in 0b's actual 'testing' with Stormravens in what appears to be a solid competitive environment and the reported results over a pure 'mathhammer' analysis. although 7 games is still a small sample size in a very variable environment.

 

The problem with most attempts at mathhammer is they simply don't take enough of the variables that the 40k environment to throw up - it's too hard to do so, the metagame is just too open. I wouldn't put any stock in points I've spouted off the top of my head above trying to break down the stormraven, it's just an attempt to show how futile stuff like that can be. Math is good for simple specific stuff like what's better between single lightning claw and powersword with +1 attack vs a space marine.

 

Can we make this post required reading for all players of 40k? Excellent summary of the failings of Mathhammer and the idea that still endures of 'winnning points back', though goodness knows why this legacy endures, apart from what you said points are irrelevant in the missions in 5th ed.

[Mezkh]

I should say I feel like I've ripped into Crynn a bit but I do agree wholeheartedly with him on avoiding silly netlists where possible (it's a bit like picking up a Chess Openings book and just trying to memorize them by rote - useless if you're clueless about the theory behind an opening)

 

and that Sang Priests are overemphasised. They're good in some lists, but they aren't a fits all sizes choice.

[the jeske]

apart from what you said points are irrelevant in the missions in 5th ed.

that is false . If something requiers 400+points to be countered then its good. If something can kill a unit per turn while costing less it is good. 700+ points death star unit is not good because it will never have the impact two separate 350 pts ones would have [both being able to target more units , giving your opponent 2 targets instead of one etc etc].

 

as storms good/bad and testing goes . as most non official reports wins or loses could be viewed as wild stories , we have to go to basic everyone agrees. Is a single storm good in a mecha or jump list ? it aint , tall model , nothing special as AV goes [so problems with SW RL and IG] , a single valk in an IG army sucks too . two storms do better , but then we more or less a alfa strike build , less flexible but they do take a lot more fire . gun shiping with a BA razor build is possible , but as the razor builds goal is to maximize the fire power for minimum of points it may not fit[as in may not fit at 1500 , its a bit different at 1850-2k or your in us and play 2250-2500]. Does that mean a storm is crap ? no it aint . does it mean it is harder to use and less flexible ? yes . does that fact make it unviable [as in taking storms make you lose in certain match ups and doesnt make other match ups better]. no .

And if someone wants to learn how to use storms play a few dozen games with eldar and then a few more with tau , helps to skill up the use of skimers a lot.

[Crynn]

SR is almost worth it's cost for the ability to get a Bloodtalon dread to where it wants to be alone. The ability to alphastrike if ever needed is just gravy.

 

I don't see anything wrong with reserving it. Basically means when it comes on you can assault anything in your own half if needed. That's powerful. Good use of reserves is key to good play. Yes the dice-roll is random (what isn't in this game?) but your opponent doesn't know if it's going to come on next turn or not and just the threat of such a powerful asset showing up next turn could lead to him making weaker, more conservative moves.

 

I don't think much of your mathhammer examples Crynn. 'Making back points' is a erronus way to play and construct lists - sure your combi-weapon could kill a twenty-point model (double it's cost) but if that model was going to be swept away in combat next turn then it's a wash isn't it?

 

Also wrong is your idea of breakdown of a unit's cost by it's constituent parts and having each part 'earn it's points' per game: it's false to state that because you used the Stormraven to alphastrike in one game, and in the other game it delivered it's payload first, that in both games 'points were wasted' due to opportunity cost. Flexibility is a positive attribute in and of itself and in many cases worth paying for. And this flexibility is the 'ideal' of Space Marine gameplay ( The same unit shoots what can out-assault it, and assaults what can out-shoot it, compared to Eldar; this unit shoots the best, this unit assaults the best, but is horrible in the other aspect) Consider a study of the popular for a reason Landspeeder with MM/HF. Powerful but completely opposed weapon choices, you'd never benefit from firing both in the same round, but what you're outlaying more points for is the flexibility of the Landspeeder to decimate a far wider range of targets-of-opportunity on the field.

 

You throw out the figure of the missles being worth maybe 30-40 points. Well lets say I give you a transport only storm raven with that saving. Then you draw Eldar in a tourney game and your chances are greatly improved if you alphastrike an important waveserpent early on. What did you spend the 30-40 points on that can can throw out 4 missles with AP1 and a TL Lascannon? A speeder Typhoon upgrade costs 40 points by itself for just two regular missles. A TL lascannon costs anywhere from 30-65 points depending on chassis. So we're looking at maybe 110 points worth just factoring in the weapons without the outlay for chassis. If you wanted the chassis for each weapon it could be around ~250 points for speeders and a razorback to give you that ability every game. Is it going to be key every game? Maybe, maybe not.

 

The thing is stuff tends to be heavily discounted when obtaining it negates other good weapons or actions available to you. Even if the Stormraven only alphastrikes once every 3-4 games, the upgrade actually likely still 'is worth the points/earns it's cost back'.

 

You'll know the saying 'looks good on paper'. The reverse applies as well of course, but the true test is in the actual results. It's why we perform experiments to test an hypothesis even if the hypothesis looks very convincing.

 

I would put a lot of stock in 0b's actual 'testing' with Stormravens in what appears to be a solid competitive environment and the reported results over a pure 'mathhammer' analysis. although 7 games is still a small sample size in a very variable environment.

 

The problem with most attempts at mathhammer is they simply don't take enough of the variables that the 40k environment to throw up - it's too hard to do so, the metagame is just too open. I wouldn't put any stock in points I've spouted off the top of my head above trying to break down the stormraven, it's just an attempt to show how futile stuff like that can be. Math is good for simple specific stuff like what's better between single lightning claw and powersword with +1 attack vs a space marine.

 

But trying to prove a question like 'is Mephiston worth his points' in a mathmatical logic type of approach is prone to error. You can present an argument like 'He kills X Space Marines per combat phase compared to whatever and Space Marines are the most popular army type based on sales' and think it looks good, but you're ignoring stuff like local metagame, Space Marines might be the most popular army out of 11 but they're actually only say a 33% total share, some of those armies might contain specific powerful counter-units to Meph available to Space Marines, and so on.

 

 

Your understanding of mathhammer is very basic and unfortunately for you, you may not be able to factor in all the meta game but other people maybe able to factor in more than you think. Your whole paragraph on 'versatility' shows you actually have very lttle comprehension of math in some areas but I am not really willing to express my case against the storm raven any further so I will leave you to your opinion which you have absolutely eveyr right to have, I will jsut leave you with 2 things.

 

1) I never compared the storm raven in a manner where it makes its points cost up by 'just destroying things' I said if it had less guns and was 'x' cheaper where x was jsut a random example it would be better because you would use it as a transport and not pay points for things you didnt use. In an all comers list you dont want to pay points for something which you only sometimes use ie the ravens missles or transport capacity you go for a sure thing (as sure as dice can be) Your exsample of laandspeeders with mixed weaponary is nice in theory yet not practical or efficient and this is one none of the top payers of any SM dex mix squad of Attack bikes landspeeders so that they have comos like this otheriese ud see baals with flamestorm cannons and heavy bolter sponsons in competetive play which you dont. If you believe that tactically versatile is the way to go however you will never do anything at its full capabilities if you do this. No top touny players do anything like what you suggested, you are just plane wrong. If you disagree maybe you think you can beat the top runners at the ard boyz tournies I dont know. Does anyone take a dev sqaud with one of every gun because of how tactically versitile it is?

 

2) Storm ravens arent used in comp play period. The question is constantly asked if they are good so clearly people are having their doubts. I will bet you that even when the model comes out that the top BA armies will not run any storm ravens, but maybe your just smarter than all those other people who finish at the top of tornies and dont use ravens, infact I cant think of an example where a list with them has finished at the top but many without. In fact let me extend this bet to say that if the raven comes out in the grey knight dex it will either be cheaper or be better in some way showing that even GW realise it isnt worth it.

 

Oh and if your going to refence my examples please do it correctly, i didnt say 30 to 40 points for all missles AND the twin linked lascannon it was just the missiles and it was just a ball park figure but to answer your question i could upgrade a dev squad with 4 missile launchers for 40 points and they shoot 4 every turn and would never not get the chance to fire cause they were transporting something and could actually find cover and never get one shotted if they are spread correctly.. Being tactically flexible is fine but the raven pays to much for this. Also if you read what I said earlier my 'assumptions' about the raven arent all based on math hammer like i said before ive played with them and against them.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The Stormraven has a lot of similarities to a landraider, landraiders are very popular... ergo the Stormraven may eventually catch on. You see posts each week of a new conversion. Also you keep forgetting PotMS, the Stormraven can always fire at least one weapon. Your bias is starting to show through now.

 

0b ^_^

[Brother Weasel]

Lets drop the storm raven, we get it, Crynn don't like em OB does. (and you dont' need to quote entire posts Crynn)

 

is there any other options for hte OP? or should he give up and play SW so he can win (yes thats sarcasm)

[Mezkh]

Actually my understanding of 'mathhammer' , game theory and strategy is very good thank you.

 

Obviously flexiblity is relative to points and opportunity cost. Don't give me pat examples like a mixed Dev squad - such a unit obviously sacrifices too much for 'flexibility'. Now if it were an option for each Marine armed with a ML to additionally also be armed with a plasma cannon for 1 point each would this be worth it? Yes, even though you can only fire one weapon a turn. 4 points is a small price to pay to add the option to shoot high strength low AP blasts.

 

Adding 10 points for a Heavy Flamer to a MM Landspeeder's cost is often worth it, simply because you get an alterate weapon choice for a very small cost. And yes people use them competitively.

 

You can't say building some flexibility into units isn't competitive and try to counter with silly points-inefficient examples.

 

Specialisation has it's place, and it's EASY to understand - e.g right, I want a unit that specialises in killing tanks, melta's the obvious choice lets find the cheapest source of Meltaguns in the codex and spam it. You'll see a lot of silly netlists built this way.

 

In an all comer's list you can pay for things that you only sometimes use if the overall value of the package strong enough to counter the fact they're used only some of the time. Math agrees, yet your disagreeing and saying I don't get basic math? Odd.

 

consider I have $20 and can play two 'gambling' games, each costs $1. The first game ALWAYS pays a return of $1.10 If I played this game I would never 'lose' and over a long time I could make some good $$$. The second game I only win 20% of the time and lose the $1 the other 80% of games played, but if I 'win' then I get paid a great return of $100.00

 

Obviously it's better to play the second game over the first game even though I 'lose it all' 4 out of every 5 times I play.

 

Consider 40k, and that you might have a unit or a choice that fails 4/5 of the time yet 'wins the game' outright for you the other 1/5. Depending on the points you pay for it the choice could be very strong. If it costs half your points allocation it's a sucker's choice, but if it costs a mere fraction, then it's a goer.

 

It depends on how risk adverse you are. In 40k I'm open to using well priced specialists, flexible units, 'banker' units and some gamblers, and trying to build an overall strong and competitive packaged army around them. It's your choice to rule out flexible and gambler units from your armies but you're possibly cutting out good value options for no reason.

 

I see at the end of your post you admit some tactical flexibility is fine, the raven pays too much for this, fine, this is where we disagree. As I said before the ability to transport a dread straight into an assault is almost worth it alone.

 

I read what you said earlier and you'd played against the Storm Raven twice. I don't really consider that a defining sample size...

 

I'm not from the states and I don't play in ard boyz. If you're happy to fly me there and provide me the resources to build a crazy army I'm sure I'd kick some ass though ;)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Crynn comes across as both highly opinionated and abrasive. It is a bad combination for a friendly forum like this one.

[earemir]

Crynn comes across as both highly opinionated and abrasive. It is a bad combination for a friendly forum like this one.

 

Hmmm spicy ... I like both arguments, you can really learn a lot of things from this discussion. I guess it all depends where you play (you local meta some would say). In my case I've used the SR as Transport mostly and in a few recent battles as a Gunship.

 

As a Transport I've managed to use it with good results specially if you are used to play with Eldar skimmers and there is one thing that put some flavor to the SR, you can move 24", picking the best spot to deliver the cargo and even shot your MM.

 

As a Gunship I've not make it work as expected. Like Crynn said, if you get the first turn you are ok, but going second means you will most likely put it in reserve and it's not worth it. But I'm still giving it a try, maybe I'll master it one day.

 

One thing that I want to play is a modification to this list from Alex Fennel:

 

Mephiston

5 ASM w/ Meltagun, Meltabombs, Godhammer Land Raider w/ EA, MM

5 ASM w/ Meltagun, Meltabombs, Razorback w/ TLLC

5 ASM w/ Meltagun, Meltabombs, Razorback w/ TLLC

4 TH/SS Terms + 1 LC Term w/ Redeemer w/ MM, EA (replacing Redeemer with SR)

3 TH/SS Terms + 2 LC Terms w/ Redeemer w/ MM, EA (replacing Redeemer with SR)

2 x SHP

 

And to the OP, for me BA are ok, SW are better that we are because we are trying to play similar list to how they play and that's just wrong IMHO. I usually play agains Razorspam and TWC list and we are at the same level. I can tell you, Mephiston eat TWC or NobBikerz any day. Cheap JP VV against Long Fangs, win. Termies with Reroll to hit/to wound+FC+FNP, win. Learn to play with synergy.

 

Last tourney I used an all JumpPack Army and placed second just behind an IG gunline list. DoA is just plain awesome. I don't know if its just me but I've not fail a DS since the new codex came out.

 

Just saying.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

An advantage of the SR for the two squads of terminators is you can run them right up into your opponent's face. If they are destroyed in the next shooting phase the terminators will be no worse for the wear. That is an expensive way to use the Stormravens though. I like to run a jump troop inside and place it right on the periphery of the enemy line. They cannot move up close enough to charge the squad if the SR is knocked out but you will be able to charge them the next turn. It puts a lot of pressure on your opponent and really takes the heat off of the rest of your army. Against certain opponents you know your SR is going to eventually die / that is not necessarily a bad thing if you can use it to your advantage. I have always wanted to run terminators in a SR but haven't done it yet since I'm having fun with DoA. I think it can work though.

 

0b ;)

[Murcielago]

So all of you would say that both our codex and the space wolves codex are better than the vanill marines codex???

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It all comes down to the players, their lists and how they use their armies. A young guy playing Salamanders won BoLScon this year - at first glance his list seems like nothing special but because he is definitely a top tactician his army is actually quite brutal in his capable hands. He beat a really tough dual thunderpup list the last round and simply outplayed his opponent. So looks can be deceiving. That said both BA and SW got their new codices after SM and I think we have some better units and characters. I would rank these three armies as follows:

 

BA/SW then SM

 

I see BA and SW as equal in terms of ranking. Both have their advantages over each other, it's up to the players to make it happen.

 

0b :lol:

[Mezkh]

SM can be quite good, combat tactics is useful, their characters aren't bad (Vulkan lists are quite good especially) and if you want to do a Bike army, you need to use codex SM. A friend finished higher than all the Blood angel armies with his SM Bike army at the last national tourney. Their librarians have some top notch powers like gate and null zone, I don't find our powers really compare to those two. Their captains are better than ours and as above unlock options like bikes as troops.

[Dingareth]

2nd game versus Dingareth and his razorspam list.

 

0b

 

Not to just back half the thread, but can we forget this game existed? :) Worst loss I've had in a loooooonnnnggggg time. Let me tell you, without the GBF's Storm Raven, it would have been a different game... Stupid AP 1 missiles... Grumble Grumble...

 

Truthfully, I think that the Storm Raven is the best thing we've got going for us in the new book. It adds even more speed, and the ability to project a Dread's assault range up to 23 inches. Don't be so quick to dismiss it in any list.

[Taranis]

Hmmm spicy ... I like both arguments, you can really learn a lot of things from this discussion. I guess it all depends where you play (you local meta some would say).

 

This is very true. personally I find the storm raven to be an expensive waveserpent (Transport wise) and in most lists I have seen the ravens appear alone. Perhaps this is because they are difficult to get/construct because there is no official model.

 

I play both Eldar and Blood Angels and a single AV model attracts much attention especially if its worth in excess of 500 points (Sanguinor or DC with a furioso or DC Dread).

 

Having AV 12 means that any weapon of S:6 can hurt it. This is a power armour forum and we have very few different S:6-10 ranged weapons. What I'm trying to say is that we rely on close range and melta especially as BA.

 

3 eldar walkers with all scatter lasers is 180 pts range 36. 18 S:6

3 eldar walkers with all shuriken cannons is 120 pts range 24. 12 S:6

 

What is important is knowing who and what your are up against. Ravens can deliver your best squads/units where they can do the most damage but if taken out to early can seriousli cripple your fighting chances.

 

Back on topic.

 

BA vs SW. BA vs the world.

 

To me Doas list is becoming more and more obvious. Honour guard can drop pod in and take out key enemy units like armour, expensive elite/fast choises and command squads.

Then comes the jump troops and the jump VV. I have tried mech heavy armies they don't fit my personal tastes. Perhaps dreads will see the light one day but razor spam no thanks.

 

Assaultcannon Baal's can greatly support DoA but if going second go for outflank or normal reserves. Keep them cheap and moving.

 

To me the plasmagun is twice as good as the meltagun. When your troop choices deepstrike they can't assault anyway and with priest nearby most times the get's hot is no longer as frightning.

 

The tricky thing is deciding the balance between power weapons and power fists. Fists is for MC/IC primarily but it costs battlebrothers waiting for I:1! Could S:5 power weapons be enough? How embarresing will it be to run from a dreadnought if your fist is lying back aboard the ship on its shelf?

 

That equation is highly influenced by the local gaming environment.

 

Hope this helps.

 

T. -_-

[ScReaM]

Sanguinary Guard can actually be very good if played correctly.

 

Many people see DoA and think OMG I should drop them behind tanks and blow them up so next turn I can die. Instead, try flying them behind a rhino screen of Assault Marines and then watch as the Sang Guard do work the way they are meant to...In close combat.

[Mezkh]

Sanguinary Guard can actually be very good if played correctly.

 

Many people see DoA and think OMG I should drop them behind tanks and blow them up so next turn I can die. Instead, try flying them behind a rhino screen of Assault Marines and then watch as the Sang Guard do work the way they are meant to...In close combat.

 

I agree.

 

I'm not sure where this popular perception came from that they're 'for fluff flavour only'.

 

2+ and jump pack movement is surely good enough to fly them into favourable combat matchups given the abundance of 4+ and LOS blocking cover available.

 

With FNP being given out to armies like candy it's hard to overlook a fast unit of full powerweapons at a reasonable price of 200 points.

[the jeske]

2+ and jump pack movement is surely good enough to fly them into favourable combat matchups given the abundance of 4+ and LOS blocking cover available.

yes because all tournaments have full LoS blocking cover . they are not viable for any tournament play[or any place you dont know what the terrain is] because if you end up on a lava board or one of those tables with one or two huge terrain in the middle they are dead. even with FnP and +2sv they still suffer from plasma/melta + they are not cheap.