Emergency disembarkation scenarios

[trefenwyd]

Question came up at a game last week regarding emergency disembarkation. From the BRB pg 67, "Models cannot disembark within 1" of an ememy. If any models cannot disembark because of enemies or because they would end up in impassable terrain, the unit can perform an emergency disembarkation - the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicle's hull . . . if even this disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark." Questions being:

 

1. Can you disembark onto the wrecked vehicle? It's just a piece of terrain now...

2. If the enemy completely surrounds the vehicle, can you deploy your troops 2" away from the hull (and 1" away from the enemy model that's in contact with the hull)? I.e., do you have to be able to trace a line from the hull to the ending posistion of each model that is entirely 1" away from all enemies?

3. Do you even have to respect the 1" rule? The BRB says that one of the reasons for doing an emergency disembarkation is if "because of enemies" - does the emergency disembarkation then allow you to disembark within 1" from the enemy? The above BRB statement seems to say that you can ignore the 1" rule and just deploy within 2" of the hull (since the 1" rule is the reason you're performing an emergency disembarkation anyway)

 

Thanks,

 

Trefenwyd

[Grey Mage]

1) Yes, if you have to.

2) No, because the minimum base size for 40k is an inch, and you have to be within 2", wich means youll be within 1" of the enemy.

3) Yes, you do. The 1" rule is only ignore during tank shocking and assaults.

[greatcrusade08]

im not a hundred percent sure but i have heard it argued that the base size is just under an inch therefore you could jump 'over' the enemy to be over an inch away yet still 2" from the vehicle..

however emergency disembarking is a form of movement and you cant move through enemy models unless there is space enough between them.

 

basically just hug the assault ramps and emarking points and hope for a wrecked result

[SeattleDV8]

1) Yes, if you have to.

Incorrect, the passengers disembark and take a pinning test. If they cannot disembark they are destroyed.

BRB pg.67

"After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck."

 

So when you are disembarking it is still a friendly model and as such you are disallowed placing your models on it.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

im not a hundred percent sure but i have heard it argued that the base size is just under an inch therefore you could jump 'over' the enemy to be over an inch away yet still 2" from the vehicle..

however emergency disembarking is a form of movement and you cant move through enemy models unless there is space enough between them.

 

basically just hug the assault ramps and emarking points and hope for a wrecked result

 

GW sells the bases as 25 40 and 60 mm bases.

 

An inch is 25.4mm, so the base would fit in that gap.

[Acebaur]

That's assuming that your opponents models are in base contact with the vehicle which they very well may not be, so even if you could move through them to disembark, chances are you wouldn't be able to still be outside of 1"

[greatcrusade08]

im not a hundred percent sure but i have heard it argued that the base size is just under an inch therefore you could jump 'over' the enemy to be over an inch away yet still 2" from the vehicle..

however emergency disembarking is a form of movement and you cant move through enemy models unless there is space enough between them.

 

basically just hug the assault ramps and emarking points and hope for a wrecked result

 

GW sells the bases as 25 40 and 60 mm bases.

 

An inch is 25.4mm, so the base would fit in that gap.

 

but they still cannot pass through enemy models unless they are an inch apart, as i said if they have the access points covered your in trouble

[Seahawk]

But they are not passing through anything, they are simply appearing where they now stand. It's like a magic pop. So my answers are...

 

1. No, as previously explained.

2. Yes, because you are not making a 'move' and can pop out anywhere in range outside of 1"; if it's possible, you can do it.

3. Yes, as previously explained.

[greatcrusade08]

But they are not passing through anything, they are simply appearing where they now stand. It's like a magic pop. So my answers are...

 

what makes you say this.. i cant remember what the discussion was but it was established that the units are on the table when embarked.. therefore within the vehicle.. if they are within the vehicle one moment and 2" away the next surely they have moved from one position to the other.. nothing magical about it surely?

[Seahawk]

"When a unit disembarks, each model is deployed..."

 

The key is deployed. It doesn't say they are moved following the normal movement rules, it doesn't say they can't squeeze between enemies, it simply says deployed.

 

So we have a magic pop into existence. It happens rarely enough so that it doesn't really matter one way or the other.

[greatcrusade08]

weird.. just make sure you are two deep outside the access points.. job done ;)

[Ming]

I understand that "officially" you cannot disembark onto the roof of your vehicle (even though it has a large hatch you can stand up in and look out of).

 

"Unofficially", you may want to agree you can do it with your opponent, BUT, wrecked vehicle roofs are dangerous and difficult terrain (fuel and ammo burning, etc), so all models disembarking to the roof still must be 1-inch away from an any opponent model base AND have to take an immediate dangerous terrain check (no saves allowed). On a subsequent turn, you would have to take dangerous and difficult terrain tests when moving them. If the rhino was completeley surrounded, you might only be able to get 4 or 5 guys on the roof...the rest would perish inside. You would also have to take a pinning check. And if lost more than 25% in the disembark also take a morale check. And....

 

As an aside - very interesting thing....I was in a game last month (tournament) vs blood angels.

 

The BAs had wrecked a rhino with their flying tank. The Ultramarines dismounted on the far side of the rhino. On the next turn, the BA player dismounted and moved forward the death company to charge the Ultramarine tactical squad. The shortest model-to-model distance was OVER the top of the wrecked rhino.

 

The BA player then did the right thing - he assaulted 5 DC marines over the top of the rhino (not around), including Lemartes! The rest flanked around the wreck. He rolled the difficult terrain check (got a 5), moved the models onto the roof, and rolled DTTs for the 5. I think he lost one marine to the DTT. After the assault, he was able to consolidate off the rhino and volunteered to take 4 more DTTs...Overall, it was a great learning moment on how wrecked vehicles can impact the game. Most people would just charge around them not thinking about the closest to closest rule. Straight line in, closest to closest, at least impacts the first charging model and could make the assaulting player take a difficult terrain check. At least thats the way this guy played it as was very commendable on his part.

[trefenwyd]

Great Crusade,

 

It's important to remember that this is an emergency disembarkation, not a normal one, so models do not need to use the nomal access hatches - they can disembark from anywhere (i.e., leaving through the holes that the power fists just rended in your Rhino). Seems like consensus is:

 

You cannot deploy on top of the Rhino since it counts as a friendly troop until after the disembarkation (this makes sense with the BRB wrecked rule "if the unit cannot disembark it is destroyed" - otherwise a unit could ALWAYS deploy on top of the wrecked vehicle)

 

You do not need to trace a path to the deployed models, who can instatly appear anywhere within 2" of the hull and 1" away from an enemy model (25mm-based enemy models in contact with the vehicle are .99" inches wide, and therefore a model can deploy directly across from them (exactly 2" away from the hull and 1.01" away from the enemy model (assuming enemy models are only 1-deep)

 

So, the only way to truly "auto-destroy" a unit inside a transport is to completely surround the vehicle so that the aforementioned deployment is impossible.

[thade]

You cannot deploy on top of the Rhino since it counts as a friendly troop until after the disembarkation (this makes sense with the BRB wrecked rule "if the unit cannot disembark it is destroyed" - otherwise a unit could ALWAYS deploy on top of the wrecked vehicle)

 

I'm not convinced this is true, and I believe your inference to be in error. Specifically, you could not ALWAYS deploy on top of the wrecked vehicle if the unit in question was too large to do this. For example: you swarm my Rhino with your thirty power-fist-wielding Vanguard models...the Rhino is surrounded 4" deep on all sides by your very angry marines. It gets Wrecked and the full tactical squad inside of it cannot possibly all fit on top of the Rhino, let alone with the 1" from all enemy models required to do so.

 

Thus, if you had only ONE surviving model inside, and you were willing to suffer the Dangerous Terrain check of standing on top of the Wreck, I don't see anything in the rules preventing you from disembarking on top of it. Nothing anywhere states that it becomes a Wreck after you disembark; if anything, it seems clear that you are forced to disembark because it has become a Wreck.

 

EDIT: For sake of argument, imagine that not all of the models can quite crowd in due to prior positioning of the units, so only most of the unit was able to close in, the rest of them still very close but not all BtB with one another; ergo, 4" all around is not impossible. ;)

[greatcrusade08]

Great Crusade,

 

It's important to remember that this is an emergency disembarkation, not a normal one, so models do not need to use the nomal access hatches - they can disembark from anywhere (i.e., leaving through the holes that the power fists just rended in your Rhino). Seems like consensus is:

 

sorry to burst your bubble, but check out page 67 of the rulebook, a wrecked result is a disembark not an "emergency disembark".. normal rules apply

 

Thus, if you had only ONE surviving model inside, and you were willing to suffer the Dangerous Terrain check of standing on top of the Wreck, I don't see anything in the rules preventing you from disembarking on top of it. Nothing anywhere states that it becomes a Wreck after you disembark; if anything, it seems clear that you are forced to disembark because it has become a Wreck.

 

pg 67 "the passengers must immdiately disembark and then take a pinning test. any models that cannot disembark are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck"

[Grey Mage]

Great Crusade,

 

It's important to remember that this is an emergency disembarkation, not a normal one, so models do not need to use the nomal access hatches - they can disembark from anywhere (i.e., leaving through the holes that the power fists just rended in your Rhino). Seems like consensus is:

 

sorry to burst your bubble, but check out page 67 of the rulebook, a wrecked result is a disembark not an "emergency disembark".. normal rules apply

An emergency disemark is still a kind of disembark, and you can do it- as covered under the procedures rules.

[greatcrusade08]

oh yes, its at the top hidden in a wall of text,, i do apologise

[Isiah]

An emergency disemark is still a kind of disembark, and you can do it- as covered under the procedures rules.

 

Exactly. And if in a wrecked transport and you can't even Emergency Disembark due to the proximity of enemy models (as summed up nicely in trefenwyd's post a bit further up) then your trapped models are destroyed.

 

Emergency Disembarkation is the 'Last chance saloon' yes, but not a fail safe means of escape :tu:

[Frosty the Pyro]

A small note ming, that you probly already understand, but the closest to closest rule does not always mean a strait line, instead it's the shortest legal path, you can go around impassible terrain and freindly/enemy models. It IS normaly a strait path, but I figgured it was worth clarifying.

[trefenwyd]

I kind of like this thread, so I'll keep it going . . .

 

Distance between models is typically measured from base to base, yes-no? (explicitly so in the case of multi-level ruins, BRB pg 82, which can be taken as guidance for models on any terrain of height difference, in my opinion) If so, then I can fit all of my models on top of my Rhino, right up next to the enemy models because I will have 1" clearance from my base to his base. In that case, it would be impossible for a squad not to be able to disembark, which makes the "if a squad cannot disembark" rule a non-factor. Obviously (said with as much sarcasm as I can muster), GW would not print a rule that could never come about, so their intention was to either 1) Not allow disembarkation on top of a wrecked vehicle or 2) Measure from base to head/torso. I'm leaning towards #1 - disembarking on top of your vehicle seems a bit cheesy. You just disembarked everyone into dangerous terrain (and took no tests due to inital disembarkation rules), forcing your opponent to now charge you through difficult/dangerous terrain, giving you initiative and forcing him to take dangerous terrain tests on the charge. Seems like one helluva good deal for getting your Rhino/LR shot to pieces.

 

What say the masses?

[Grey Mage]

No, you cant go within 1" of an enemy model, not within 1" of an enemy base- I dont think that would fly.

[thade]

Distance is 'typically' measured from base to base because 'typically' the models are on the same level. When different distances are concerned, you measure the distance between models (in your case, from one model's base to another model's head).

 

This is clearly stated in the weirdest place with regards to our discussion: in the chapter regarding buildings and ruins and how your unit is (or is not) in coherency when on different levels of a building. In short, each level is three inches and they assume your models to be two inches in height, so there's plenty of play room for coherency between the base of those above and the heads of those below.

[Ming]

Overall, I guess the teaching moment here is that in "official" games, if your vehicle is blocked to keep you from any emergency disembark, make sure of the following:

 

1. When the opponent charges everyone in the unit is supposed to participate, no holding back!

2. In initiative order, the opponent rolls the dice to HIT the vehicle. Make sure no dice are held back.

3. Roll for penetration of ALL hits, no holding any dice back.

4. Roll for effect for all glances and penetrations competely - apply the results for that initiative. As averything is at initiative, make sure rolling does not stop even if he is doing dice individually - no stopping at the first "wreck".

5. Roll for effect distance for ALL explodes, not just the first one he sees. Take the largest blast distance from the hull rolled as the area of effect.

 

Why all this?

 

A. Instead of losing everything, your models that fit would be standing in a crater rather than destroyed.

B. The risk to your opponent is that the vehicle explodes, and you always want the biggest explosion you can get....

 

I can imaging there are some players who want to stop as soon as a wrecked result is seen....nope, gotta keep rolling till the hits are done!

[Seahawk]

You know, I was about to write that you only roll once if you get multiple explosions, but looking through the book that's not the case. Heck, you're allowed to roll to wound from each explosion too as it doesn't say otherwise! Anyone disagree? I hope you do, as this is too awesome that you roll more than once...

[thade]

You know, I was about to write that you only roll once if you get multiple explosions, but looking through the book that's not the case. Heck, you're allowed to roll to wound from each explosion too as it doesn't say otherwise! Anyone disagree? I hope you do, as this is too awesome that you roll more than once...

 

LOL

 

I hope not, man; that's a LOT of die-rolling. This isn't Champions. :D