Chaos Space Marines 3rd Edition, Second Codex?

[Ultraboy]

I bought a copy of this codex for (No lie) $2.29 at my local hobby shop. While reading it I realized, why didn't we keep using this codex? Fluff wise, it represents chaos as legions, unlike (My opinion) disorganized rabble in the current codex. It also gives you several options in building a decent army. I've only been playing 40k for two years and I just started with Chaos, but I don't think I'm alone with this. What's your guys opinions?

[Gree]

It could be easily abused. For example, look at the Iron Warriors army. They could take Basiliks and Vindicators were no other Chaos force could, and in four heavy support choices. with mini/maxing it quickly became the cheesy army of 3.5.

 

EDIT: Apologies, I made a typo. It's four, not nine.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

In my opinion, it was about as perfect a Chaos Codex as has been made yet. I lament its passing with each game I play with the current one. <_<

[Zeller]

IW could take 4 heavy support at the expense of an elite and fast attack IIRC. One of those HS could be a basilisk and 1 could be a vindicator.

 

In regards to just about anything in the chaos section of the board about the current codex:

TL:DR 99% of people don't like it. 3.5 was the real chaos codex. All we can do is wait.

[the jeske]

It could be easily abused. For example, look at the Iron Warriors army. They could take Basiliks and Vindicators were no other Chaos force could, and in nine heavy support choices. with mini/maxing it quickly became the cheesy army of 3.5.

and you would have an army with 10 models being scoring and ~1300 pts not being scoring.[by the way you could take 1 basil and 1 vindi . and at most you could have 6 hvy support choices and it was in a non legion list ].

 

 

But back to the question why we dont use it anymore. It aint legal . normal players dont play against illegal dex . plain and simple.

[Hellios]

I bought a copy of this codex for (No lie) $2.29 at my local hobby shop. While reading it I realized, why didn't we keep using this codex? Fluff wise, it represents chaos as legions, unlike (My opinion) disorganized rabble in the current codex. It also gives you several options in building a decent army. I've only been playing 40k for two years and I just started with Chaos, but I don't think I'm alone with this. What's your guys opinions?

 

Many of the old vets lament the passing of the old dex... but we wait bitter and angry knowing the truth that one day chaos will rise again!

 

DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!

 

As for now... some people might be willing to play you... but the rules would need to be re-jigged for this edition... someone has actually made what seems to me (I haven't play tested it) a good 5th ed chaos codex thats a mix between 3.5 and 4th ed and updated for 5th but I don't have a link to it.

[Sangneur]

Many of the old vets lament the passing of the old dex... but we wait bitter and angry knowing the truth that one day chaos will rise again!

 

DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!

 

Now I'm just a simple fairy/lawyer/fireman, but when I got into 40k a couple of years ago I read the 3.5 book and th 4th ed. books, and assumed that 3.5 was the most recent one (the books I used didn't have the titles on them) because of how much more engaging, and interesting it was, not to mention the units being more awesome. A couple of weeks later my friend said that it was the old one, and showed me the 4th edition book, having read it already, I seriously didn't believe him, because of how much worse the 4th book looked. I know both books fairly well, so I too share the sentiment.

 

Every time I pick up the 4th edition book to assemble a list, I wish I could have participated in the time before this travesty of a book.

[Clewz]

Many of the old vets lament the passing of the old dex... but we wait bitter and angry knowing the truth that one day chaos will rise again!

 

DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!

 

Now I'm just a simple fairy/lawyer/fireman, but when I got into 40k a couple of years ago I read the 3.5 book and th 4th ed. books, and assumed that 3.5 was the most recent one (the books I used didn't have the titles on them) because of how much more engaging, and interesting it was, not to mention the units being more awesome. A couple of weeks later my friend said that it was the old one, and showed me the 4th edition book, having read it already, I seriously didn't believe him, because of how much worse the 4th book looked. I know both books fairly well, so I too share the sentiment.

 

Every time I pick up the 4th edition book to assemble a list, I wish I could have participated in the time before this travesty of a book.

 

I did a similar thing when I got back into. It was completely dumbed down. Wasn't as if it was on a level of complexity as slaves to darkness/lost and the damned. What were they thinking about when they decided to knock the gifts on the head :D

[Iron Father Ferrum]

3.5 Alpha Legion was my first 40K army, and I was a loyal Traitor (pun intended) for a long time. I ran a 100% infiltrating infantry force, with no tanks or APCs at all, and it worked -- I won my first-ever RT with that army (and haven't won one since, sniffle). I've set my Alphas aside in protest over the new Codex until we get some Legion rules back.

[Brother Ambroz]

We all lament its passing. I still have all my sorcerer Tson champs with powerfists which i can't use anymore..... -_-

[Plague Dave]

While this topic has been much discussed, I had a new thought about it (well, new for me) the other day.

 

GW's justification for much of what became the new Chaos codex was that 3.5 had so many options, but players only ever took a few of them. So, they cut and combined things. However, after some time with the 4th ed. codex, how many reasonable/competitive Chaos lists are there? Maybe a handful at most? Everyone now takes nearly the exact same set-up (DP 1-2, troops in Rhinos, Oblits). Chaos has gotten very predictable.

 

While I doubt a general Chaos 'dex will come out any time soon, I really have high hopes GW will surprise us with cult/legion lists. Even if they're just in White Dwarf. I think that'd tide us over for quite a while.

[Prot]

I bought a copy of this codex for (No lie) $2.29 at my local hobby shop. While reading it I realized, why didn't we keep using this codex? Fluff wise, it represents chaos as legions, unlike (My opinion) disorganized rabble in the current codex. It also gives you several options in building a decent army. I've only been playing 40k for two years and I just started with Chaos, but I don't think I'm alone with this. What's your guys opinions?

 

I realize you have a handful of posts and joined the forum recently. (Welcome, btw!) Without taking this the wrong way, I would suggest you do a search on this type of subject, except the results would seize your computer up, and burn out the hard drive.

 

I think in my entire time being here I have never seen a more despised codex, that has been nearly unanimously hated by its intended audience, than the current Chaos Marine codex. The creators of that codex don't work in the studio anymore, and one left GW entirely. Make of that what you will, but they're gone.

 

Even back when GW were a little smarter by employing decent sized pools of playtesters around the world, I knew guys who tested it and pleaded with GW not to release it as is. It fell on deaf ears. You also have the complicated issue that may or may not be true of the Ork line being pushed back. The Ork codex was THE codex (in more ways that one) in 4th edition, and made off like a bandit in 5th ed as well. The rumour is that the Ork miniature line wasn't ready and they forced through Chaos ahead of schedule.

 

So that's the muddy history in a nutshell. I will say I hope this doesn't open up a can of worms because this is where the threads can go for a nose dive. So hopefully this gives some answers..... basically only 'new' chaos players who didn't really play 'true' chaos were _ok_ with the current dex. But almost every single local Chaos guy dropped them. Some did as you are suggesting, and attempted to live a fringe lifestyle of playing the old codex, but as Jeske states.... it's illegal now so it's somewhat pointless.

 

The Legion codex was hinted about. One author of the codex admitted this was a strong suggestion. Other reliable sources have also fessed up to this idea (Jervis for instance). But it just isn't happening.....

[Ulfast]

So when do you think we get our 5:ed chaos codex? Could it be next year, like q3 or q4?

[the jeske]

the codex we have now was made with 5th ed in mind [it was made/tested at the same time as codex demons], it was pushed before orks before parts of the ork model range were not ready , considering GW didnt change a thing when the codex droped sales[compering to chaos model/dex sales of the 3.5 dex] , they wont change it now . So minimum of a year or two and even when they do make a new dex , it is going to be based around the Gav dex and not the 3.5 dex , so old timers will meh anyway . But GW knowing that few players play for more then 2 years can do stuff like that , when the 5th or 6th ed chaos codex comes out most people wont remember how 3.5 was.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Basically 5th has reduced the number of competitive Chaos builds to ones revolving around 2 Daemon Princes. minimum sized Plague Marine squads. 10 man Chaos Marine squads (all meched) and Obliterators. Anything else will have a hard time against proper 5th edition armies... well except for Dark Angels... there's an army that received a similar thrashing.

[Hellios]

Basically 5th has reduced the number of competitive Chaos builds to ones revolving around 2 Daemon Princes. minimum sized Plague Marine squads. 10 man Chaos Marine squads (all meched) and Obliterators. Anything else will have a hard time against proper 5th edition armies... well except for Dark Angels... there's an army that received a similar thrashing.

 

C:CSM lost flavour and limited how many builds could be competitive (basically some units in the current dex are so much better than others it is a no brainer if you play to win)... while C:DA is so restricted and was going the new way but they overshot and reversed with other dexes making it look weak in comparison...

 

What can I say except I didn't even play chaos in 3.5 but played against them all the time and they gave me my best games... Now all I can say is thank god for Codex Orks and Codex Imperial Guard... because now at least a few more ork players are around and lots of Imperial Guard have come out of the wood work... Otherwise all my games would be vs Marines or marines with jump packs or marines on wolves or maybe marines with spikes... seriously the old chaos dex gave me more games against armies that were different than Current Chaos dex combined with C:SM, C:BA & C:SW!

[Ulfast]

But with all the new good stuff that GW has done, like dark eldar etc, they have brought back old and intersting units, like harlequins, conversen beamer etc Could this not meen that even we, chaos, can get new (or rather old) things back, like more flavour?

[Reyner]

But with all the new good stuff that GW has done, like dark eldar etc, they have brought back old and intersting units, like harlequins, conversen beamer etc Could this not meen that even we, chaos, can get new (or rather old) things back, like more flavour?

It will take a long time but it is quite possible. They could make it like the current Loyalist Marine codex where you pick a character and they give you "legion" rules. Crappy thing about that though would be forcing you to take a character. We can only hope eh?

[Hellios]

But with all the new good stuff that GW has done, like dark eldar etc, they have brought back old and intersting units, like harlequins, conversen beamer etc Could this not meen that even we, chaos, can get new (or rather old) things back, like more flavour?

It will take a long time but it is quite possible. They could make it like the current Loyalist Marine codex where you pick a character and they give you "legion" rules. Crappy thing about that though would be forcing you to take a character. We can only hope eh?

 

I would prefer it if it was an upgrade for a captain... well a lord in the case of chaos... such as Warsmith Xpts you get cyber armu skull crushy thing and replace combat tactics with all your base are belong to us.

 

Dark Apostle you get a badass evil crozius thing and replace combat tactics with Only the good die young!

[Prot]

But with all the new good stuff that GW has done, like dark eldar etc, they have brought back old and intersting units, like harlequins, conversen beamer etc Could this not meen that even we, chaos, can get new (or rather old) things back, like more flavour?

 

To go a bit further with my original post, you do bring up something interesting that I believed happened around the time of the Chaos Codex. Again I knew of a local group of 4-6 people who were playtesting the actual Chaos pre-release codex (the ones that begged for it to not be released). The information I had at the time was that GW were trying to reel back on 'Codex Creep'. Publicly GW DID state that some of their codexes and army lists were "too complicated" and they wanted to simplify them. (If you will recall 5th edition was all about speeding up, and simplifying assault!)

 

This part is pure speculation, but I believe in their effort to 'simplify chaos' they realized it was a butchered mockery of its former self.... sales were poor. I know if I were GW and I had to lay someone off and give them a severance package, I'd probably give the poor git a garage full of 'Chaos Spawns' just to drive the point home.... (Or possessed, or whatever...)

 

So I believe Chaos was intended to be simpler in 5th, but this failed. They went the other direction immediately and now here we stand, with strong sales of new codexes and the likes of Mephiston, IG Valk lists, Ork Painboy biker lists, and other very complicated, and highly competitive codexes with lots of great models. So you look back at our poor codex, and it makes me think: It's hard to soar like an eagle.... when you're built like a turkey. ;)

[RapatoR]

I hate to say it, but IMHO we cant await release a new codex at least till 2nd half of 2012, as GW release schedule is according to rumors full (DE, Inq, Tau, Crons) and there isnt even a single rumor about new chaos dex and I doubt that there will be any GW support of recent dex, so till new release players will have to rely on home made dex improvements and Legion rules.

[Hellios]

I hate to say it, but IMHO we cant await release a new codex at least till 2nd half of 2012, as GW release schedule is according to rumors full (DE, Inq, Tau, Crons) and there isnt even a single rumor about new chaos dex and I doubt that there will be any GW support of recent dex, so till new release players will have to rely on home made dex improvements and Legion rules.

 

Can't expect a new chaos codex until after or just before the end of the world... go figure...

[Freman Bloodglaive]

You can expect a shiny new 'dex that is characterful and plays fantastically under 5th edition rules... right before 6th edition comes along and nerfs everything again.

 

Just saying.

[MarshalHelva]

Part of being a current chaos player is accepting the fact that your codex sucks and probably will for quite a while yet. we really are the underdogs and it makes it all that more satisfying when i manage to smash my opponents shiny new space wolf army. chaos codexes are cyclical, we had a really crappy bland 3rd ed codex then got the fantastic but abusable 3.5 codex then the current bland and boring 4th ed codex and i would dare to bet our next codex(5th or maybe 6th ed) will be way over the top.

 

really the best thing i have done in regards to this hobby is stop trying to compete with the WAAC tournament crowd with this army. i have surrounded myself with a group of gamers who are very good players but also would rather play friendly games over beer and pretzels and are more concerned with having a good time than winning. and it has opened up a lot of opportunity in regards to the chaos codex. all of a sudden i dont mind taking my chaos dreadnoughts and possessed and i can take my chaos terminator lord instead of dual daemon princes. hell, some of my friends dont even care if i use my old chaos basilisk from time to time.

 

having said that i really think releasing white dwarf legion rules like they did long ago for the even crappier 3rd edition codex would go a long way in keeping interest in chaos marines alive.

[Prokrustes]

having said that i really think releasing white dwarf legion rules like they did long ago for the even crappier 3rd edition codex would go a long way in keeping interest in chaos marines alive.

 

I think that too, but what are our chances of that happening........