thade Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 First off, I apologize if this is the wrong place to post this...but I feel that my chapter's fluff is a small-type of fan fiction, and I definitely feel the people who frequent this particular board are the ones to ask. I have what I fear are unreconcilable contradictions in my background and I want to try avoiding a retcon if I can (as I like my fluff...and my entire painting scheme is based around it). For the record I use the Blood Angels codex, but my army is NOT a Blood Angels successor; I do not use Death Company, Baal Predators, or Sanguine Guard. I also use a LOT of Librarians. Note that my usage of timeline here is loose at best because, frankly, my comprehension of the WH40k timeline is not very tight. The Red Shields: "By our blood is the Imperium kept safe." They are a Seventh Founding chapter, and a Salamander Successor. To this day, members who have visited the homeworld of the Salamanders have experienced the skin/eye color changes that still reside in their geneseed (in short, some of my models have Sallie-skin and most have normal skin, if their faces are showing). They are a space-faring, barge-based chapter also seeking the Primarch's Relics (originally with the intention of delivering them to the Salamanders upon claiming them). The chapter is pretty closely adherent to Codex: Astartes. They have for the past several millennia declared a Forge Father (something with which the Salamanders were never really 'okay' with). Roughly ten Foundings later my chapter found one of Primarch's gifts: the Obsidian Chariot...essentially a large battle barge with the most effective cloaking device in the Imperium. (You can imagine why this one might have been hard to find.) Skip forward to the Ultramarines/Tyranids incursion. My chapter rushed to aid the Ultras and engaged the Tyranid Hive Fleet in space...resulting in my chapter being killed nearly to the last marine, literally leaving perhaps thirty brother marines and a few dozen staff members alive. Due to the still-growing schism (almost a rivalry) between them and the Salamanders (as they still refuse to turn over the barge...which saved the chapter's remnant) they refused to be re-absorbed. They are instead rebuilding the Chapter and seeking out lost Chapter relics (which accounts for my first few months of gaming, where I build the army and continuously fought battles against my friend's Tzeentch CSM). The command structure for my army is now weird, as the Chapter Master and much of the command was slain, and with so few survivors they instead went with a pseudo-council. The notable survivors (and pretty much the people in charge): - The Forge Father and Chief Librarian Dornkirk (my Counts-As Mephiston) - Librarian Asryndall (terminator honours) - Captain Vito (duel-wields Thunder Hammers) - Zemus (one of the few surviving sergeants, leads the Vanguard now) - Arcturus (Master of the Forge/Techmarine) - Captain Cecil (previously my Calgar-counts as) - Orin: a 6000 year old Dreadnought, which his old Shield bolted to his big metal face. My chapter has fought alongside the Inquisition (Grey Knights) and Imperial Guard on many occasions and so is not hunted or disavowed...however the Salamanders officially have no successors, leading me to feel that they were either unofficially disavowed or just plain forgotten (in that many may not know the Chapter survived). The Ultramarines - whom my chapter when to aid - actually saved my Chapter in the end, and so our purity seals are blue in honor and remembrance. Showing valor in combat earns you the right to bear a storm shield (the chapter' namesake); models with the Shieldbearer title have a Red Shield painted on one shoulder plate. Sergeants in general have Orange Helmets, Veterans have White helmets (or none at all). I often run a Vanguard, and occasionally an assault squad, but the focus of my army is really fire power and tactical squads; still works with the BA codex, but man do I catch a lot of flak for it. ("BAs don't do that." "I'm not BAs." "You use their codex!" "That's how DIY works." "You use their codex!!" "Work that out for yourself.") I do use Apothecaries (Sanguine Priests) and sometimes Meph (especially when I confront Tyranids). The Vanguard is more or less my defactor "command squad". So, not to belabor this with further nitty-gritty...but there we have it. When I summarize it here it sounds a little more solid than when I try to sum it up at the table. The potential issues I see are: - Salamanders have no successors...but my guys clearly are Salamanders successors (charcoal-black skin and red eyes on Captain Cecil, Zemus, and several other models). - My chapter should have been re-absorbed with so few survivors, and technically don't exist (no Sallie successors) yet have fought alongside the Inquisition. - I really don't want the Inquisition to be angry with me; that's Space Wolves territory. Once the GK get fixed and 6th Ed hits with Ally rules, I'll be allying with Grey Knights all the time again. - I really don't like the whole "Inquisition is Mysterous so deal with it" protective blanket...so my best feeling is that people believe very strongly there are no successors as they're supposed to all be dead, but people just don't realize that rumor has covered the truth. - I've attributed the "Red Thirst" rule (and the loss of Chapter Tactics) to simply being "infallible zeal"; my marines will not flee, and seldom break from combat no matter how bad it looks...such is their faith in the Emperor. (And why they almost didn't make it out of that Tyranid ordeal.) If you see any glaring holes in this that I don't perceive (for instance, perhaps the Obsidian Chariot was found in the fluff and is something entirely different) I'd love to hear about it; I'm not above changing which relic it is or even adding a previously unknown Primarch gift. I really don't want to do any retcons if I can help it, but I'm open to the idea (provided I don't have to repaint my army). I really appreciate any thoughts you have. =) Thanks for reading. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213679-my-diy-army-fluff-is-in-peril/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culebras Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 - Salamanders have no successors...but my guys clearly are Salamanders successors (charcoal-black skin and red eyes on Captain Cecil, Zemus, and several other models).- My chapter should have been re-absorbed with so few survivors, and technically don't exist (no Sallie successors) yet have fought alongside the Inquisition. - I really don't want the Inquisition to be angry with me; that's Space Wolves territory. Once the GK get fixed and 6th Ed hits with Ally rules, I'll be allying with Grey Knights all the time again. - I really don't like the whole "Inquisition is Mysterous so deal with it" protective blanket...so my best feeling is that people believe very strongly there are no successors as they're supposed to all be dead, but people just don't realize that rumor has covered the truth. - I've attributed the "Red Thirst" rule (and the loss of Chapter Tactics) to simply being "infallible zeal"; my marines will not flee, and seldom break from combat no matter how bad it looks...such is their faith in the Emperor. (And why they almost didn't make it out of that Tyranid ordeal.) If you see any glaring holes in this that I don't perceive (for instance, perhaps the Obsidian Chariot was found in the fluff and is something entirely different) I'd love to hear about it; I'm not above changing which relic it is or even adding a previously unknown Primarch gift. I really don't want to do any retcons if I can help it, but I'm open to the idea (provided I don't have to repaint my army). I really appreciate any thoughts you have. =) Thanks for reading. I'm gonna give you some ideas to help you out. Take them or leave them, its up to you. -Salamanders have no first founding successors, but that does not mean in the long, often unrecorded history of the Imperium, that no successor chapters were ever created using Salamander gene seed. Please remember that all knowledge was lost of the thirteenth founding, so a dozen salamander successor chapters may have been created then and we would have no idea. -Technically speaking, rebuilding a space marine chapter depends more on the availability of gene seed then on the survivors. If a chapter was wiped out but had a large enough stockpile of stored gene seed, then it could still be resurrected. Consider the terrible losses inflicted on the Crimson fists, yet they still are fighting to come back. Perhaps your chapter kept a sizable store of gene seed hidden on a vault world or sequestered on some barren rock that no one would think to explore, let alone loot -Best advice I can give regarding the GK is that there should be a reason they don't memory wipe your chapter. Perhaps, your forge father character has a well known reputation and history as a daemon fighter, or the chapter itself has gone toe to toe with demonic enemies in the past and walked away victorious. One option would be you surrendered some tome of demonic lore that the thousands sons were chasing to the ordos xenos, and they have come to view your chapter as exceptionally zealous. -"Inquisition is Mysterous so deal with it" protective blanket? I don't follow. The inquisition is mysterious because they strongly believe that knowledge of evil tends to lead humans into temptation. Its also human, however, and therefore prone to politics, rumor, and petty bickering. For every fire and brimstone inquisitor your run into, there is another who is as greedy, conniving, and treacherous as your basic chaos champion. -red thirst sounds fine. It looks like your chapter is turning into a hybrid of the blood angels and the Black Templars. -As for finding the obsidian chariot...Is it really? Work some ambiguity into your storyline a little to help create gaps and give yourself room to explore later on. Perhaps your chapter believes that this is true, but the Salamanders disagree based on secret knowledge they refuse to share. Here is my impression of your chapter. Your marines are extremely zealous and fiery, perhaps drawing strength from ritual acts of castigating their flesh or hours spent in prayer, kneeling on benches made of sharpened iron, to inure themselves against the sins of the body. Your loyalty is to the master of mankind, and in his name you march into the fires of war, choosing death before even considering the sin of retreat. You have fought against the blasphemous enemies of man and, whether wrapped in warp sorcery or xeno skin, you have found them both loathsome. You have no master but the emperor and your forge-father, and Vulkan, though a great warrior, was still just a man. In their primarch's absence, the salamanders have fallen from his crusading light, becoming less than they once were. The presence of the Obsidian Chariot proves to your chapter that the Emperor favors you, and you will use it to harry his foes into oblivion. In recognition of your many acts of heroism, facing near annihilation at the hands of the enemy, the inquisition has blessed you and your righteous wrath, declaring you a cherished weapon of intolerance which will sweep away the fell threats that seek to drown the Emperor's realm in unwholesome darkness. You can use that if you like. Hope this helps. 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The Normish Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Here is my impression of your chapter. Your marines are extremely zealous and fiery, perhaps drawing strength from ritual acts of castigating their flesh or hours spent in prayer, kneeling on benches made of sharpened iron, to inure themselves against the sins of the body. Your loyalty is to the master of mankind, and in his name you march into the fires of war, choosing death before even considering the sin of retreat. You have fought against the blasphemous enemies of man and, whether wrapped in warp sorcery or xeno skin, you have found them both loathsome. You have no master but the emperor and your forge-father, and Vulkan, though a great warrior, was still just a man. In their primarch's absence, the salamanders have fallen from his crusading light, becoming less than they once were. The presence of the Obsidian Chariot proves to your chapter that the Emperor favors you, and you will use it to harry his foes into oblivion. In recognition of your many acts of heroism, facing near annihilation at the hands of the enemy, the inquisition has blessed you and your righteous wrath, declaring you a cherished weapon of intolerance which will sweep away the fell threats that seek to drown the Emperor's realm in unwholesome darkness. Best. Description. Of a Chapter. Ever! Seriously, this sounds great! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213679-my-diy-army-fluff-is-in-peril/#findComment-2544386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culebras Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Best. Description. Of a Chapter. Ever!Seriously, this sounds great! Thanks for the compliment. <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213679-my-diy-army-fluff-is-in-peril/#findComment-2544393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 First off, I apologize if this is the wrong place to post this...but I feel that my chapter's fluff is a small-type of fan fiction, and I definitely feel the people who frequent this particular board are the ones to ask. Two words, dude - Liber Astartes. That said... They are a Seventh Founding chapter, and a Salamander Successor. To this day, members who have visited the homeworld of the Salamanders have experienced the skin/eye color changes that still reside in their geneseed (in short, some of my models have Sallie-skin and most have normal skin, if their faces are showing). They are a space-faring, barge-based chapter also seeking the Primarch's Relics (originally with the intention of delivering them to the Salamanders upon claiming them). The chapter is pretty closely adherent to Codex: Astartes. They have for the past several millennia declared a Forge Father (something with which the Salamanders were never really 'okay' with). Roughly ten Foundings later my chapter found one of Primarch's gifts: the Obsidian Chariot...essentially a large battle barge with the most effective cloaking device in the Imperium. (You can imagine why this one might have been hard to find.) Are there other cloaking devices in the Imperium, then? Also, cool stuff rarely makes a Chapter interesting. The exception is when the exploration of the cool stuff is the focus of events - which this does not seem to be. Skip forward to the Ultramarines/Tyranids incursion. My chapter rushed to aid the Ultras and engaged the Tyranid Hive Fleet in space...resulting in my chapter being killed nearly to the last marine, literally leaving perhaps thirty brother marines and a few dozen staff members alive. Due to the still-growing schism (almost a rivalry) between them and the Salamanders (as they still refuse to turn over the barge...which saved the chapter's remnant) they refused to be re-absorbed. They are instead rebuilding the Chapter and seeking out lost Chapter relics (which accounts for my first few months of gaming, where I build the army and continuously fought battles against my friend's Tzeentch CSM). Tying your Chapter into important events and happenings, while it may make you feel warm and fuzzy, often comes across perilously close to trying to make your Chapter cool and important by attaching them to things, places and people who are. Additionally, those losses are, I suspect, unsustainable. Chapters whose numbers fall so low have a very, very low survival probability. My chapter has fought alongside the Inquisition (Grey Knights) and Imperial Guard on many occasions and so is not hunted or disavowed...however the Salamanders officially have no successors, leading me to feel that they were either unofficially disavowed or just plain forgotten (in that many may not know the Chapter survived). The Ultramarines - whom my chapter when to aid - actually saved my Chapter in the end, and so our purity seals are blue in honor and remembrance. Showing valor in combat earns you the right to bear a storm shield (the chapter' namesake); models with the Shieldbearer title have a Red Shield painted on one shoulder plate. Sergeants in general have Orange Helmets, Veterans have White helmets (or none at all). The Salamanders have no Second Founding successors. This is a very important distinction. I often run a Vanguard, and occasionally an assault squad, but the focus of my army is really fire power and tactical squads; still works with the BA codex, but man do I catch a lot of flak for it. ("BAs don't do that." "I'm not BAs." "You use their codex!" "That's how DIY works." "You use their codex!!" "Work that out for yourself.") I do use Apothecaries (Sanguine Priests) and sometimes Meph (especially when I confront Tyranids). The Vanguard is more or less my defactor "command squad". The fact that the BA are a mostly-Codex Chapter eluded them, eh? - Salamanders have no successors...but my guys clearly are Salamanders successors (charcoal-black skin and red eyes on Captain Cecil, Zemus, and several other models). Not even slightly an issue. No Second Founding, but the Salamanders are honorable, nice, and fight well. They'd be drawn on at least once or twice. - My chapter should have been re-absorbed with so few survivors, and technically don't exist (no Sallie successors) yet have fought alongside the Inquisition. The Inquisition don't make that call. The High Lords or the Chapter would. - I've attributed the "Red Thirst" rule (and the loss of Chapter Tactics) to simply being "infallible zeal"; my marines will not flee, and seldom break from combat no matter how bad it looks...such is their faith in the Emperor. (And why they almost didn't make it out of that Tyranid ordeal.) Not implausible, but a little odd from the level-headed and relatively kindly Salamanders. * * * Honestly, I'm a little uncomfortable with them finding the Obsidian Chariot at all. It just feels like you're trying to make them special and important. Ditto the whole Tyranid thing - though that may just be that you seemed to be emphasizing the Ultramarines, when really it was just the same war. 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NightrawenII Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 -Salamanders have no first founding successors, but that does not mean in the long, often unrecorded history of the Imperium, that no successor chapters were ever created using Salamander gene seed. Please remember that all knowledge was lost of the thirteenth founding, so a dozen salamander successor chapters may have been created then and we would have no idea. Second Founding. First Founding was time of Legions, Primarchs and the Big Stuff. I haven't read the Salamaders (trilogy??), but IIRC there is something about Dragons Warriors being Sallies successors. Additionally, those losses are, I suspect, unsustainable. Chapters whose numbers fall so low have a very, very low survival probability. The Background is very contradictory on this one. The Crimson Fists lost their gene-stock and most of their Chapter was wiped out, yet they are slowly rebuilding. The Marines Errant has their gene-stock stolen by Huron, no information about their numbers, and they are condemned to slow death. The Scythes of Emperor has their gene-stock destroyed and their Chapter is reduced to one(???) Company. Listed as destroyed. The Astral Knights were wiped out to the last man(the story says so) with their gene-stock intact(the story don't talk about it), listed as destroyed. It all depends. The thing is, in such state most of the Chapters decide to launch suicidal crusade/mission ie. the Glory End, rather to pull back from active duty in order to rebuild their Chapter. And your Chapter is too zealous to do such thing, I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213679-my-diy-army-fluff-is-in-peril/#findComment-2544561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Scout Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Heresy I know but you could always lie to the high lords of terra. They wouldn't know if you had 30 or 300 or 3000 marines if you....kept them in the dark. Hell your boys could be off on a quest or a purge or something of that nature. If you do go with the 30 lone survivers make sure you explain how you had enough gene seed to recover. My celestial lions raided gene stock from saturn just before chaos did :) I like your story so far but I'd like to ask don't your marines have identity crisis'? Sallies using BA codex acting like BT's ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213679-my-diy-army-fluff-is-in-peril/#findComment-2544579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted October 25, 2010 Author Share Posted October 25, 2010 I like your story so far but I'd like to ask don't your marines have identity crisis'? Sallies using BA codex acting like BT's :D Did I mention that their paint scheme - other than no holy crosses and red trim here and there - is black and white? They are often confused for BT at a glance. =) Guys, thank you very much; this has given me a lot to think about. The reason I decided for them to find the Obsidian Chariot is that I wanted something to strongly tie them lore-wise to the Sallies as well as serve as a division between them; I very much like the idea that 1. my marines believe it's the Obsidian Chariot, 2. the Sallies strongly disagree, 3. the Sallies claim their right to it anyway. As to whether the Imperium has other cloaking techs, I don't know; I'd be happy to downgrade it to simply "a cloaking battle barge" or write it out altogether. Some thinking to do there. I didn't know the GK/Inquisition could/would memory wipe a chapter of Space Marines after a demon incursion; how many times has this happened? Under what circumstances does it not (or has it ever not)? My marines have thrown down with demons and Chaos w/ heavy demon support on many occasions on the table (in fact, perhaps half of the games I have been in have involved at least one demon prince on the other side of the table, usually two). I like the idea that they turned over a tome without questioning or even examining it too. This fits in well with Red Thirst, as my marines REFUSE to flee (no Combat Tactics + a chance of Fearless help that out) under almost all circumstances, so their being super-zealous is not far-fetched at all. Regarding the locating of a gene seed stock...if it's not Salamander's stock, can it be cultured into it or something? I'm betting it can't...meaning either my marines 1. were able to recover a great deal of the gene seed lost after the marines were killed, or 2. they found a massive Sallie stock and maybe THAT's why the Salamander's are pissed: my marines kept it to rebuild and didn't turn it over to them. Is that plausible? Again, thank you guys; especially Culebras. You've helped me on the long road to filling out my chapter's background. =) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213679-my-diy-army-fluff-is-in-peril/#findComment-2545196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myxx Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 I haven't read much of the fluff, but perhaps the battle barge can just be a ship, and the disagreement with the Sallies is due to having a different (and not so terribly "in-your-face" as a warship with a cloak) one of Vulkan's scattered relics? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213679-my-diy-army-fluff-is-in-peril/#findComment-2545217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted October 26, 2010 Author Share Posted October 26, 2010 Two words, dude - Liber Astartes. Aye, now I see. Perhaps a mod could cast this thread over there? I'm okay with it either way. Not implausible, but a little odd from the level-headed and relatively kindly Salamanders. This was the whole reason I initially chose to be a Salamander successor, as they are the "nicest" marines by reputation. The initial idea was that my marines would sacrifice themselves if it means saving a hamlet of humans from xenos, but given how they're shaping up I'd say - if this is still true - they'd be pretty abrasive when addressing the hamlet denizens later. Honestly, I'm a little uncomfortable with them finding the Obsidian Chariot at all. It just feels like you're trying to make them special and important. Just trying to tie them awkwardly to their parent-chapter, and drive a wedge between them as well. I felt equally weird having them be such a long-lived sucessor (7th founding, est.) without having found any of the relics at all. Perhaps they have not, as this device may in fact not be one of the relics. Ditto the whole Tyranid thing - though that may just be that you seemed to be emphasizing the Ultramarines, when really it was just the same war. The decision to tie the Ultramarines in was based on an art-choice I made; their purity seals are colored blue (to add something to their otherwise bleek black-and-white armor which the red trim wasn't doing), and I suspected this might be kind of a big deal (red purity seals seem the norm, which is probably Codex Astartes?). So the idea was the Ultramarines saved my marines, but how to set it up so that could happen? First idea that came to me was to have my marines drive themselves between the Hive Fleet and Ultramar...and - though they bought a little time for Ultramar - they failed, were presumed dead, and more or less stricken from the record. The Ultras saved the two remaining barges (one badly beaten, the other the Chariot) and - to honor them - the seals have been changed. I'd be okay here with either 1. dropping this entirely, 2. making up some other encounter/event with the Ultras, 3. another reason entirely. It's just one of the scraps I had for my fluff so far. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213679-my-diy-army-fluff-is-in-peril/#findComment-2545829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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