Best Melee Marines?

[Ravenfeld]

I am currently working on making a fairly shooty Iron Hands marine force and I was wondering what the other side of the coin would be? I would love to make a super assaulty marine force based almost wholly on power weapons and storm shields if I could. Kind of like a Romanesque theme with the legions marching in formation to deal out death. What Codices would fit the bill the most do you guys think?

[Xeonic]

IMO, the three top tier PA close combat style armies are:

Blood Angels

Black Templars

Space Wolves

 

BA can take assault marines as troops, and they can remove their packs to get a transport discount or deep strike more accurately thanks to descent of angels. The assault marines are far as I know are otherwise mostly standard but they can take twin meltaguns, which is always handy, as well as the usual sarge upgrades. Some mean special characters and sang. priests to hand out feel no pain and furious charge like candy and you have a recipe for some serious CC potential. Expensive vehicles and ICs will keep your numbers down though. This is probably your best "fast attack" option, though it also can do well mechanized. Also Melta Pistols, that is all.

 

BT have a more or less out of date codex, but at this point they make up for it with preferred enemy in CC and cheap neophyte meat shields to keep them near the top tier for CC armies. Having to pay for grenades sucks though. They can have 1 PW or fist in a standard troops squad along with a meltagun or flamer. Preferred Enemy/Furious charge Lightning Claw termies are also incredibly fearsome(they have rerolls on what now?) -_- . Due to the unique troops choice in the crusader squad this is the best "horde style" CC army IMO.

 

SW are more about potent close ranged shooting with good assault potential. Counter Attack is pretty golden for a close shooty army where every man gets a CCW+BP+Bolter. You do have to sacrifice the second special weapon(and an elites slot!) in your squad to takea "sarge" and still fit in a rhino, but it's all good, and well worth it. Space wolves are also one of the few armies that can take multiple(well, two) power weapons or fists in a troops choice. It's also worth noting that Thunderwolf Cav are one of the most devastating and annoying to deal with "death star" units in the game, packed with ablative wounds, sprinked with 3++ sv. guys, and generally at least a couple multi-wound ICs as well, though this is a *massive* points sink. Actually quite a good balanced close combat army with some really decent long ranged support options to boot.

 

EDIT: whoops, I never made a conclusion. To fit your criteria, I'd probably have to say Space Wolves are your best bet. Multiple homebrew hero Style HQs(and many good "counts-as" special characters to choice from too!), Lone Wolves, Grey Hunters with PW and a WGPL with a Fist and SS, backed up by Long Fangs and Land Speeders. Probably one of the easiest armies to spam power weapons/SS in, and they have better lightning claws too. Still, the others are all viable options, BT sword brethren in particular are a good ringer unit for what you have in mind. BA are the only one you wouldn't have to really "counts-as" as you could just make up your own successor(as far as I know neither wolves nor BT have any!).

[Grey Mage]

You want an entire, albiet very very small, army of SS+PW guys?

 

SWs will let you do it- take Logain, give all your now-troops Wolf Gaurd SS and PW or PF as you like.

 

Not sure its a good Idea though to be honest.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I always enjoy seeing my power weapon honor guard squad upon the field of battle. Though, I must confess, they fall very quick and oh so gloriously.

[Hellios]

Chaos... because if we lose our chainsword... we will just grow a claw!

[pattison]

Chaos... because if we lose out chainsword... we will just grow a claw!

That's it. :huh:

And who else is more committed to his job than a Khorne Berserker?

I mean it's really nice when your hobby is your job too. :P

[thade]

I am currently working on making a fairly shooty Iron Hands marine force and I was wondering what the other side of the coin would be? I would love to make a super assaulty marine force based almost wholly on power weapons and storm shields if I could. Kind of like a Romanesque theme with the legions marching in formation to deal out death. What Codices would fit the bill the most do you guys think?

 

Since no one's really spoken out in this way, I guess I'll do it: this is a terrible idea. =( It *sounds* cool, but each of those models will cost 50ish points...which means each time one of them dies (and they will die) you will feel it. There is only one circumstance under which I give a model that has a power weapon a storm shield as well, and that's if the model is an HQ that doesn't have a 4+ invuln at least (example: librarian in Terminator Armor).

 

Mix it up: marines get either a power weapon OR a storm shield, but not both; you'll also want marines who are just vanilla to soak wounds.

 

If you want to take a melee army that can be melee-only with power weapons everywhere, take SW with Logan Grimnar and max out on Wolf Guard. You'll find that you'll be outnumbered 2-to-1 by even marine armies and you will not have the durability to make up for it. =( Given some fire support and sticking those WG into terminator armor (or at least some of them) might help a bit.

 

Tactically, SW are a great melee army but their style is "Hi. We're gonna stand here and rapid-fire your face off. Charge us. We dare you." SW have Counter Attack and so will very often get attacks as if they charged, even if they did not.

 

BA cannot give *everybody* power weapons, but you can take two assault squads, 2-3 assault terminator squads, and 2-3 Vanguards, and otherwise have much the same load out.

 

Tactically, BA are a great melee army and their style is "OMG WE HAVE TO CHARGE RIGHT NOW." as on the charge they will often get Furious Charge and maximize their attacks.

 

I can't speak to Black Templar, but you can do that entire army as melee and I've seen it done very well, even in this current edition.

[Ravenfeld]

Well ok, I realize it isn't going to be possible to truly have EVERY model with a power weapon and storm shield. My intention is to have a melee army, I would like it to have as many shields and PW's or Relic Blades as possible, but without hindering the ability of the army. That means that I am looking to get as many chainsword/pistol combo's in while still remaining semi-competitive. I have perused the SW codex as I own it, and it isn't exactly what I was looking for, so that leaves the BA and BT, both of which show promise.

 

I know the BT have a semi-outdated Codex, but does that truly hinder them in this addition of the game?

[Nougat]

BA can get you an army of power weapons...sanguinary guard! BT are probably somewhat hindered by their out of date codex...you just don't get the kind of goodies that vanilla SM, SW, or BA get. If you like the idea of Neophytes, then maybe. I think BA are probably the strongest choice for a melee army at the moment. You don't have to take any bolter-armed troops if you don't want to.

 

BA would give you a break from painting black, as opposed to Templar/Iron Hands, too.

[thade]

BA can get you an army of power weapons...sanguinary guard! BT are probably somewhat hindered by their out of date codex...you just don't get the kind of goodies that vanilla SM, SW, or BA get. If you like the idea of Neophytes, then maybe. I think BA are probably the strongest choice for a melee army at the moment. You don't have to take any bolter-armed troops if you don't want to.

 

Two responses to this:

- Sanguinary Guard are expensive and come in five-man teams; that said, they take Elite slot, so add them to the fire with the rest of the BA melee (Vanguard and Assault Teams)

- Space Wolf troops come with Boltguns, Boltpistols, and CCWs; Chaos Space Marines do also. It's not whether you have a boltgun or not that matters for assaults: it's whether you have two CCWs.

 

BA would give you a break from painting black, as opposed to Templar/Iron Hands, too.

As colors go, Red's not a bad one to paint either.

[Ravenfeld]

So would a list of Assault squads be semi-competitive using the BA?

 

And this will be a home grown chapter, although it will still feature a Crimson Red.

[Zynk Kaladin]

So would a list of Assault squads be semi-competitive using the BA?

 

Oh, hell yes they would. At 1000 points I run:

 

1 libby

2 sanguinary priests with power weapons and jump packs

1 full Regular Assault Marines (RAS) with 2 flamers a power weapon.

1 full RAS with 2 meltas and a power fist

1 full RAS with 2 meltas and a power fist

 

Gotta love the sanguinary priests. FNP and Furious Charge on 2 power fist jump pack squads. Pop a tank with a melta or two, pop a transport then whack at the gribblies inside. My list still needs some tweaking, but at 1000 points the basic 3 RAS, 2 Sang P, 1 Libby always makes me smile.

[thade]

So would a list of Assault squads be semi-competitive using the BA?

 

You could in fact run a competitive army with all assault squads using the BA codex (note that you won't be able to use Relic Blades). Don't expect to put storm shields everywhere possible and do well: you will burn away points needlessly and lose very expensive models constantly. For instance, don't put a storm shield on an Assault Squad sergeant, as you'd never want to risk his leadership or attacks trying to save a stray lascannon shot into your assault squad. Likewise, giving every model in a Vanguard a shield and a power weapon is the reason people hate on Vanguard so much: it makes them catastrophically expensive. Instead, consider putting one to two models in each Vanguard with a storm shield, one to three with various power weapons (fist, hammer, claw, whatever), then several more with no upgrades at all. If the unit takes fire, put the invuln-only saves on the storm shields as they might save them...and if they fail their saves, you're losing only a storm shield and not also a power weapon.

 

You are going to take losses. Nothing can prevent that. What you need to do is plan ahead for that, and have models that you can afford to lose. A vet with no upgrades costs less than half than a veteran with a shield and weapon combo. Better to lose a vanilla vet before a shield, a shield before a power weapon, a power weapon before the sergeant (in almost all cases).

[Ravenfeld]

The lack of Relic blades does kind of suck, you'll have to forgive me because I don't actually own the BA or BT Dex's so I am flying blind and relying on other peoples input.

 

Well I want a legionary theme, like the Roman Legion, so having a shield motif would be nice, maybe have small shields on all my guys just for flavor and have larger shields represent the actual storm shields?

 

Also what do you think about replacing chainswords with gladius'? You know the Roman short swords, they would still count basic hand weapons, not power weapons or anything.

 

I wanted Relic Blades because I was going to use them as spears on my guys *sigh* So BA don't get any Relic blades at all?

[Grey Mage]

No, they get two handed master crafted powerweapons instead.... bleh.

[Kay]

But not on HQs iirc. Bummer...

[thade]

The lack of Relic blades does kind of suck, you'll have to forgive me because I don't actually own the BA or BT Dex's so I am flying blind and relying on other peoples input.

 

Yea, I guess PA + really good pre-charge shooting (Sanguinary Guard) + FnP + Furious Charge was enough in their eyes...and a Str 6 attack at I5 coupled with Sweeping Advance was just too much. It's a shame, but I accept it; it's one of many things I miss about my former codex.

 

Well I want a legionary theme, like the Roman Legion, so having a shield motif would be nice, maybe have small shields on all my guys just for flavor and have larger shields represent the actual storm shields?

 

No, this won't fly at all from an official/tournie-rules perspective. If they have shields on, they can either represent Combat Shields or Storm Shields...so telling your opponent some of them represent neither will best case confuse them, worst case get your entire army disqualified from tournies. It's not a road you want to walk on, even if you never intend to play a tournament. If you want to go all Roman, mod up some crested helmets and paint shield iconography on them.

 

Also what do you think about replacing chainswords with gladius'? You know the Roman short swords, they would still count basic hand weapons, not power weapons or anything.

 

This can't be confusing so long as your power weapons look significantly different from your common CCWs; perhaps your power weapons can all be painted blue with lightning details while the CCWs are just a dim metal color.

 

I wanted Relic Blades because I was going to use them as spears on my guys *sigh* So BA don't get any Relic blades at all?

 

You can take the Sanguinary guard and they come with spear-like swords, which are their master-crafted Relic Blade replacements. You can also give that weapon to the Vanguard sergeant. If I remember correctly, no other models in the army can wield them.

 

Same holds true for Vanilla Marines, frankly: Honor Guard, Captains/Chapter Masters, and the Vanguard Sergeant can take Relic Blades. Nobody else can.

 

So you can't really expect to dec out the entire army in Relic Blades in either case. You could very easily use spears for power weapons though. Since they don't yet have their new codex, I wouldn't officially recommend them, but I do have two units of Grey Knights that I field as allies once in a while. Not worth their points, but man do they look awesome...and they wield weapons that I think you'd like visually.

[Ravenfeld]

Ok, well with that in mind how effective would you find assault squads without jumppacks? I know closing the gap is highly important in a BA army that is based around assault, so would a lack of jump packs really hinder that? Remember, both my 40k armies are either well rounded (Death Guard) or very shooty (Iron Hands). I don't have a whole lot of experience with Fast Attack in general, actually, let alone assault oriented forces... heck even my Orks are going to be Dakka heavy!

 

Its count the contrary for my fantasy armies, which rarely have much shooting at all!

[Marshal Wilhelm]

SWs will let you do it- take Logain

 

Logain?

 

Is that some dietary supplement?

 

<_<

[thade]

Ok, well with that in mind how effective would you find assault squads without jumppacks?

 

I used one tonight, actually. An 8-man Assault team on foot with a PF. I packed them with an Apothecary (Sanguinary Priest) and Librarian into a LRC, for which I bought a MM and an extra Storm Bolter.

 

Turn 2 Ragnar and a terrifying unit of Wolf Brother Veteran Maniacs (3 single wolf claws, 2 frost blades, 1 power weapon, 3 vanilla) charge out of a LR and eat one of my tac squads. I used ranged tactical squad fire and the LRC to whittle them down, then charged them with the assault squad, overwhelming the remainder with vanilla wounds (courtesy of the Librarian granting Preferred Enemy).

 

I then used that assault squad and the ranged support to hold a control point center of the table (in a ruin). They got charged by one Spacewolf Tac Squad; I managed to intercept the other one with a dreadnought. The tac squad finished the game holding the center objective with four remaining models. (Note that the Sanguinary Priest that was with them died when the LRC got blown up, so they only had it against Ragnar).

 

In summary: they do pretty well. They don't need a LR. You can stick them in Rhinos; I do all the time. In fact, Khorne Bezerkers have been doing it for years: you just drive the Rhino up, pop smoke, and sit there taking fire for a turn. Next turn, don't move the Rhino, your guys pile out, move 6", and assault. Works just fine. <_< Just keep that Rhino behind other Rhinos (or at least behind cover). Like any other unit, they won't do well open table without support. In the example I just described above, I had a Sternguard (6-man) right behind them, and just a bit further back was a full tac squad and a devestator squad with MLs laying out support fire. The Dread was TL-autocannon and I slogged him up to join them, popping off shots the whole way.

 

Assault squads are excellent at taking down units that are not kitted out for melee, especially if they get the charge. Vanguard are better (but more expensive); also, don't think you have to buy upgrades for your Vanguard to make them worth it. A vanilla Vanguard puts out a LOT of pain. Use them to cut off or counter-charge units that are closing in on your firing line.