How many Vanguard

[Br0ther Rafen]

Hi guys

I need some help organising my Vanguard.

here is the loudout for a 5x squad:

2 ablative wounds (BP+CCW)

1 "meatshield" (SS+CCW)

2 upgraded guys (PW+BP & Sergeant w/ fist+BP)

Total: 165pt

If anyone has objections tot his loudout, please comment and i'll most likely ignore you. (joking B))

 

now, my real question is how many vanguard is too much? because i was thinking that if i gave the squad +5 guys w/ the same stuff, then this cheap assualt unit makes Terminators look cheap.

So i just want to know, what's the best loudout for a 10x squad?

Thanks for any help in advance.

Rafen

[Hellios]

Hi guys

I need some help organising my Vanguard.

here is the loudout for a 5x squad:

2 ablative wounds (BP+CCW)

1 "meatshield" (SS+CCW)

2 upgraded guys (PW+BP & Sergeant w/ fist+BP)

Total: 165pt

If anyone has objections tot his loudout, please comment and i'll most likely ignore you. (joking :))

 

now, my real question is how many vanguard is too much? because i was thinking that if i gave the squad +5 guys w/ the same stuff, then this cheap assualt unit makes Terminators look cheap.

So i just want to know, what's the best loudout for a 10x squad?

Thanks for any help in advance.

Rafen

 

I think it depends on what you plan to do with them... I see many people suggesting it is often better to take jump packs off and sticke them in a transport and gives them 3-4 special weapons. If you really want some advice I think you should tell us what you want them to do and roughly what your list will look like...

 

I'm sure Thade will post something informative here as he seems to have experimented a bit with them and seems to like them B)

[Jackelope King]

I'm not a fan of Vanguard Vets in Codex: Space Marines. Too pricey for what they do.

 

Analyzing them a bit, Vanguard Vets should be the ideal place for us to stick Power Weapons. 2 attacks base + 1 for charging + 1 for two close-combat weapons is actually pretty decent. The problem is that they start to cost an obscene number of points to do that, and they eat up a Fast Attack slot, meaning there are that many fewer slots full of fast-moving units who can run up and support them.

 

So we have to mix special weapons in diligently. They can get Invulnerable saves (thank goodness), so they have a leg-up over Honor Guard, but their cost is still very high, especially once you look at Jump Packs. Failing Jump Packs, you need to Rhino Rush them. Yeah, that means they run up, cross their fingers and pray that they don't get shot to pieces. Giving them a Land Raider is a possibility. They can actually get the numbers to use the capacity of a Land Raider, and really take advantage of having so many attacks, but again, oi the price.

 

The problem with them is that unlike in Codex: Blood Angels, they don't have the advantage of Descent of Angels or a similarly up-close-and-personal force to swoop in and support. Descent of Angels + Heroic Intervention + Furious Charge / Feel No Pain Bubbles = facewreckers in a Jumper Army. A very expensive and still-fragile one, but the amount of hurt a BA player can put on the table bringing in two of these squads is scary. Codex: Space Marines have to jump through hoops to get anything like this (spending more points on Locator Beacons, etc.), and still won't have the maneuverability of a Jumper Army once it's on the ground even with something like Drop Pods.

[Ming]

Assuming you want the Generic Vanguard to do a well placed heroic intervention, the baseline would be to take down 10 SMEs. With that in mind, you need 8, all with a minimum of a pistol and PW.

 

5 are perfect for taking out those pesky Long Fangs. Otherwise 5 are for assassination, to kill ICs or other leaders.

 

PFs are needed if they might go vs T5+ MCs or worse.

[McFisty]

I wish Vanguard had Furious Charge instead of Heroic Intervention. I would certainly use them more if they had any way to be I 5 outside of Khan. They are so cost prohibitive that I always end up taking terminators instead. They sure can be a lot of fun to field from time to time but unless they could use Heroic Intervention from a drop pod I don't think it improves the unit enough to overcome their negatives.

 

 

For The Emperor,

 

McFisty

[Br0ther Rafen]

Well, the general idea that i had for them was to be a counter assualt unit, since a play a defensive army style.

However, if i was planning to do something different then i would give them a rhino as a transport to get where they need to be. LR's would be preferable in higher point games, but the Rhino/Razorbackwould still do just fine.

The defensive style list basically has scary amounts of marines on the table (60-70+). I was wiling to sacrifice some Termies for them since it's a 2000 point friendly list.

For my "other" list is a DS drop pod force in which they would obviously be given a dp so that they can exploit their HI rule.

What i really want to know is are they good enough to be 5 man. And if not, what is the cheapest amount of upgrades for a 10 man? i know that SS are basically mandatory, especially against special units with PW's. And as of the original loudout, i wanted the fist in case he charges me with something like a Writhlord so that they don't Tarpited for the rest of the game. Though a relic blade would do nicely i guess...

anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

[thade]

Sorry to disappoint with a long wait. Hi, my name is Thade, and I love Vanguard. :lol:

 

Well, the general idea that i had for them was to be a counter assualt unit, since a play a defensive army style.

This is a fantastic reason to use Vanguard, and the only reason I would ever give them jump packs as Vanilla marines. Heroic Intervention with the vanilla dex is asking for trouble as it plays to the weakness of assault troops...namely that they are closer than all of your other units, are not in a transport, and look juicy. Typically you'll find that if you race Assault Troops forward they will at best eat one enemy infantry unit and die, worst they'll die before they eat anything. If you hide them behind your transport/tank-line or behind whatever structures/ruins your gun-line is hiding in, they can leap over your gun-line and charge/counter-charge any melee unit that closes with your gun-line. On the charge even vanilla (non-upgraded) vanguard does a fantastic number of attacks.

 

However, if i was planning to do something different then i would give them a rhino as a transport to get where they need to be. LR's would be preferable in higher point games, but the Rhino/Razorbackwould still do just fine.

I wouldn't bother with the Razorback for the Vanguard, as a Rhino with vet melee models in it is already tempting enough to draw fire. Put the points elsewhere so your opponent has more to shoot at than just the Vanguard. Unless you give the Vanguard a Land Raider, which is something I stand behind for games at 1750 or above.

 

The defensive style list basically has scary amounts of marines on the table (60-70+). I was wiling to sacrifice some Termies for them since it's a 2000 point friendly list.

For my "other" list is a DS drop pod force in which they would obviously be given a dp so that they can exploit their HI rule.

Re-read the HI rule; you'll find that they cannot use DI if they DS in a Drop Pod. It only works with Jump Packs. That said, I've never tried deploying a Vanguard in a Drop Pod, and I probably would not unless I was DPing the entire army. Vanguard really need to either be in a transport, behind your lines for counter-charging, or both to be most effective.

 

What i really want to know is are they good enough to be 5 man. And if not, what is the cheapest amount of upgrades for a 10 man? i know that SS are basically mandatory, especially against special units with PW's. And as of the original loudout, i wanted the fist in case he charges me with something like a Writhlord so that they don't Tarpited for the rest of the game. Though a relic blade would do nicely i guess...

anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

 

Food for thought...here's my typical Vanguard load-out schema for Vanilla:

 

- If a marine gets an upgrade, he either gets a weapon upgrade or a storm shield, but not both.

- For each marine that gets an offensive upgrade, there must another marine with either a defensive upgrade or no upgrade at all.

- There must be at least one Str 8 weapon upgrade (PF or TH).

- Lit Claws are strictly better than Power Weapons; never pair them up.

 

So here's an example anti-infantry Vanguard (intended to go in a transport):

- Relic Blade, Power fist, single LC, 2x Storm Shield, 2-3 vanilla vets

 

Here's another (intended to go in a transport also):

- 2x Power Fist, 1-2 Storm Shield, fill out with vanilla

 

Here's a surprise fun one which doesn't cost too much more than a vanilla assault squad:

- 1x Power Fist, 7-9 vanilla.

- The number of attacks this one does is pretty fun; try them out with a Chaplain and watch them overwhelm TH/SS termies with vanilla face punches.

 

Here's an anti-light armor kit:

- 1-2xTH, 1-2xPF, 1xSS, 2-4 vanilla (maybe give a few of the vanilla melta bombs)

 

When you're building it, consider what role you want them to play alongside the rest of your force. You also want to try and pick your fights; it's true that a Wraithlord (or any other MC) or a Walker will tarpit and/or eat your Vanguard steadily, so keep away from them. Also, don't underestimate your Vanguard's ability to tarpit things: they look scary (they are kind of scary) and have good durability as they're marines and have a couple of Storm Shields. I used to pair Calgar with my Vanguard and stick them in an LRC. Expensive as hell, but in many games I was able to pin down more than their points-value in the center of the table (and skirt around with my tac squads to support fire and take control points). Cassius is probably a much better character-paring with the Vanguard, but even a vanilla Chaplain will do.

 

Hope this is helpful.

[fredbob524]

Vanguard are way over priced for what they do, th/ss termies are all around better, 200 pts for five plus the 250 lr tax is 450 and put a lot more hurt down then these vanguard units

[Ming]

In a world of Null Zone librarians and units that cause lots of wounds you have to save, TH/SS termies might sound great, but can be wiped out before you get to I1. Vanguard deserve a hard look because they can be tooled up in vastly better ways, and live as long, or cause more damage before they croak.

 

Case in point: I played a game Friday where my 5 assault terms "for fun" assaulted a band of broken kroot and kroot hounds (I did not have to, but the terminators had nothing better to do LOL). 3 TH/SS and 2 DLC Assault terms. I rolled 8 dice at I4. The kroot took a few wounds at I4, but I lost 4 of the squad from rolling 4 1's in response to his 12 or so wounds. That meant at I1 I had just 3 attacks left (from the assault term sergeant)...I did not plan to roll the 1's, it just happened. On the following assault phase the last terminator died, and had the game gone to turn 7, the kroot should have been able to get on an objective. The same happened the prior week vs a ork nob squad (see blog) - I rolled 3 1's at I3, losing all the lightning claw guys, the other two TH/SS marines were popped by Ghaz and Nob Claw at I1. In that game I was a pretty poor speed bump.

 

If I had charged the Kroot with 5 Vanguard, with 1 PF, 2 LC, and 2 PW, that would have been 14 attacks at I4, 3 attacks at I1...and the damage to me might have been far less.

 

I'm building a Vanguard squad for counterassault. Hope to get to 8+ models. It may be the only thing I can do to offset the death company / Lemartes power builds I'm encountering.

[thade]

Also keep in mind that you can fit more Vanguard into an LRC, can put them into a Rhino/Razorback, or can give them jump packs: they are more mobile than Assault Terminators.

 

Assault Terminators cannot perform Sweeping Advance; Vanguard can. Since you're going to sweep in and do a ton of wounds and likely win combat anyway...wouldn't you want the chance to auto-eat that unit instead of taking fleeing-fire?

 

Don't write of Vanguard because - for whatever reason - it was the status quo to do so before I got here. :huh: They are worth a try.

[ShinyRhino]

Here's a surprise fun one which doesn't cost too much more than a vanilla assault squad:

- 1x Power Fist, 7-9 vanilla.

 

I like this version. It feels a lot like my dirt-cheap Biker Command squad that has only an Apothecary, Champion, and 3x basic Veterans. Massed vanilla attacks causing a ton of armor saves. I know I fail far too many armor saves when faced with that many dice to roll.

[thade]

Here's a surprise fun one which doesn't cost too much more than a vanilla assault squad:

- 1x Power Fist, 7-9 vanilla.

 

I like this version. It feels a lot like my dirt-cheap Biker Command squad that has only an Apothecary, Champion, and 3x basic Veterans. Massed vanilla attacks causing a ton of armor saves. I know I fail far too many armor saves when faced with that many dice to roll.

 

Yea, it's precisely the same reason that Ork Boyz are so ridiculous on the charge. I may not count out my assault attack rolls in "dice cubes", but 10 vaniila veterans with off-hand weapons bring 40 attacks on the charge. That's a lot of face-punching. Figure 4+ to hit MEQ, you can expect (conservatively) 15-20 hits, followed by 8-10 wounds (4+ vs MEQ). They're going to lose half of their tac squad. If you brought the power fist, that would effectively increase the wounds and guarantee one or two deaths.

 

NOW throw a Chaplain on there. :D

[Br0ther Rafen]

Thanks Thade, your advice has been very helpful.

What about a squad with say 7-8 Vets, 1 with PW and 1 with fist and 2 SS?

i was thinking jump packs so that have an assualt threat radius of 18"? that way, i will eat up an ork squad like nothing, or just scare him into getting into combat.

the price for the norms would be 220pt for 7, while the same with JP would be 290pt

JP very pricey i know, but still would be helpful.

Any thoughts on it?

[thade]

I like your proposed loadout; instead of a PW I recommend using a single Lightning Claw on that vet. (If you just don't have the lit claw, a power weapon is fine...but you can pick up a lit claw vet pewter model for like $12, or bum a lit claw off of one of your Space Wolf friends and file off the puppy marks.)

 

Jump Packs are fine provided they have a significant gunline (read as: most of your army) to stand behind. If they're in front, jumpin around, they might hit (and eat) one infantry unit...but if a second infantry unit charges them and they're Orks, you are going to lose the squad. You might even just lose them to a round of shooting. Imagine the case where they charge and break/sweep a unit during their assault phase. You can consolidate only d6" away...which likely won't be enough. Now your Vanguard is in front and hated and well, your opponent loads them with bullets.

 

Keep them behind your gun-line and counter-charge; with jump packs they can charge into any combat any unit of your gun-line gets tangled in. They'll hit it hard and when they consolidate d6", you can guarantee they'll at least be intermixed with (if not clearly behind) the shooty squad they just saved.

 

I think you should try that load out and see how you like it. Either magnetize the backpacks (much easier than it sounds, but it requires a dremel), or pin the backpacks (requires pinvice andis more annoying than a dremel), or just only use a single drop of super glue to afix the backpacks...so you can pop them off. Magnets are awesome here as you can swap between Jump Team and Foot-slogging team, each of which have their perks as you'll see.

 

Happy to be of help.

[Meatman]

I'd probably go for 7 guys like you're saying, but I'd go for this load out

 

Vet 1: Power weapon (sergeant)

Vet 2: Power weapon

Vet 3: Stormshield

Vet 4: Stormshield and meltabombs

Vet 5: Thunderhammer

Vet 6: Vanilla

Vet 7: Meltabombs

 

8 power weapons for killer damage at I4, 14 normal at I4 and 3 hammer to deal killer blows. Plus 2 guys to soak up wounds, 2 storm shields for power weapon hits back. And every model is unique so you can play the wound allocation game.

 

240 points without packs. 310 with them. Not too unreasonable?

[thade]

I'd probably go for 7 guys like you're saying, but I'd go for this load out

 

Vet 1: Power weapon (sergeant)

Vet 2: Power weapon

Vet 3: Stormshield

Vet 4: Stormshield and meltabombs

Vet 5: Thunderhammer

Vet 6: Vanilla

Vet 7: Meltabombs

 

8 power weapons for killer damage at I4, 14 normal at I4 and 3 hammer to deal killer blows. Plus 2 guys to soak up wounds, 2 storm shields for power weapon hits back. And every model is unique so you can play the wound allocation game.

 

240 points without packs. 310 with them. Not too unreasonable?

 

You can't really play a "wound allocation game" with them because marines have one wound a piece...so there's no magic to bouncing the wounds around as there may be with Nobz. Also note that Meltabombs are for Planetstrike/bunker-busting. Don't expect your Vanguard to tear down a Landraider; even a squad full of meltabombs is a poor anti-LR solution. (If you are playing Planetstrike, I guess it's an okay way to spend those points.) The Vanguard's real strength lies in how many attacks they gets on the charge (which is, as previously mentioned, fantastic.)

 

Versus vehicles in melee, all the challenge for you lies in hitting and not penetrating...as you will be hitting Rear armor in assault...so you'll want to prefer volume of attacks over potential penetration. Krak Grenades you only get one shot with, no matter how many attacks you get per round. Same with melta bombs. However, with a power fist you get 3 attacks on the charge...and you only really need to hit with two of them for a good shot at popping a Rhino. Maybe consider swapping out one of the power weapon guys for a vanilla, and swap the other power weapon guy for a power fist. Now you've got two PFs for 6 attacks vs a vehicle on the charge: you are going to pop that Rhino.

 

Right now you've got three weap upgrades, two shields, and two ablative wounds; honestly I'd want one or even two more vanilla marines in this to keep the power weapons safe, but you could probably work with it. This looks like a fine start to me, other than the meltas.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Thanks for the advice Thade, i think that i'll have to pin them since i don't have dremel (sigh)

Rafen

[fredbob524]

@ming just because one army out of more then a dozen has a good way to shut them down, which your own librarian w/ a physic hood has a 50/50 shot of stopping, or you had some horrible luck does not mean you should write off assault terminators

@thade they die a lot faster to being torrented by normal bolters with only a 3+ save to give them a 3++ invulnerable makes them only 5 pts less then termies before giving the power weapons of any type

 

here this is an analysis of vanguard from VT2 over on 3++ is The New Black http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/09/...10-jumpers.html

it mainly focuses on them with jump packs but I think it got the fundamentals.

 

Basically if you are using them with no jump pack or power weapons the damage they cause will be small and will not happen very quickly as they must spend 2-3 turns getting into position. If they are not in a rhino they are a little cheaper but will be dead quite quickly. The 225-250 pts, possibly more depending on the load-out, this could be used way more productively on shooting units that can cause a lot of damage from turn 1

 

With jump pack DSing them is suicidal, and they become extremely expensive so it really is not worth talking about them like this.

 

The Vanguard will just not be as effective as TH/SS terminators with a landraider

[ImperialReaper]

Well I tried to include some vanguards in my list for quite some but they where just no good. Even in my BA army where the do scatter only 6" when deepstriking.

 

Today I am a proud user of a honor guard - they are a much better value for points unit IMO and they dont use up a slot in your force organisation chart.

[thade]

The Vanguard will just not be as effective as TH/SS terminators with a landraider

So, just last week my Vanguard - mounted in a Land Raider - killed a Termie Assault Squad after I grounded their LR. Just putting that out there. It's not the first time it's happened. In a tournament once I killed a TH/SS unit with a vanilla Assault Squad backed up by a Chaplain. How do I typically take down TH/SS terminators? With massed bolterfire. It's not just Vanguard's weakness; it's really everybody's weakness. Keeping Vanguard in their LR helps protect them from that, and means they can potentially get into two or three assaults before the game ends. 2+/3++ is awesome, but when you hit them with 16+ wounds on the charge, they are going to roll some ones. The ability to do this is why Vanguard is costed only slightly less than TH/SS terminators.

 

Also, TH/SS terminators are for posers. I WENT THERE. @_@ Seriously though, everybody uses em, and that's the reason I got into Vanguard. Now I love them. I don't have a single model in my army that has a Thunder Hammer and is also in Tactical Dreadnought Armor.

[Jackelope King]

The Vanguard will just not be as effective as TH/SS terminators with a landraider

So, just last week my Vanguard - mounted in a Land Raider - killed a Termie Assault Squad after I grounded their LR. Just putting that out there. It's not the first time it's happened. In a tournament once I killed a TH/SS unit with a vanilla Assault Squad backed up by a Chaplain. How do I typically take down TH/SS terminators? With massed bolterfire. It's not just Vanguard's weakness; it's really everybody's weakness. Keeping Vanguard in their LR helps protect them from that, and means they can potentially get into two or three assaults before the game ends. 2+/3++ is awesome, but when you hit them with 16+ wounds on the charge, they are going to roll some ones. The ability to do this is why Vanguard is costed only slightly less than TH/SS terminators.

 

Also, TH/SS terminators are for posers. I WENT THERE. @_@ Seriously though, everybody uses em, and that's the reason I got into Vanguard. Now I love them. I don't have a single model in my army that has a Thunder Hammer and is also in Tactical Dreadnought Armor.

Don't mean to pick on you thade, but this raises an important point, so I hope you don't mind terribly. I'm only using you as an example in a larger trend I see rather often. Nothing in here is meant as an attack on you :P

 

Okay, so this one time, your Vanguard Vets killed a squad of TH/SS termies. And another time, all it took was a Chaplain leading an Assault Squad.

 

Great. What's your sample size?

 

Sample size, for those of you lucky enough to be spared statistics in your education, is one of the factors that goes into determining how powerful an experiment is. You can't ask one person who they're going to vote for to accurately predict the outcome of an election, and you can't conclude that a single person's experiences using a medication will necessarily be the same as everyone else who uses that medication. But once you increase the number of people you'll ask or test beyond one, you start to get more power behind your question. If you ask a thousand people who they're going to vote for, you're much more likely to predict the outcome of the election than if you just asked one.

 

So when you tell me that you killed a squad of TH/SS termies with them once, I'll ask about every other instance when you ran a similar experiment and for the outcome. Because by looking at the numbers, a squad of Vanguard Vets are probably in trouble without some very lucky rolling. My Biker Command Squad has also rolled TH/SS Terminators escorted by a Null Zone Librarian, but that doesn't mean I'll advise it. It was lucky for me that the Librarian failed two Storm Shield saves when the Captain was swinging his relic blade on turn 1, and the number of 1s he rolled to wound back against my Bikers was catastrophic for him. Combat still dragged on for another turn and a half. It's not a very efficient way of dealing with the problem. Heck, two weeks ago, I had a Kroot Carnivore Squad gun down a Daemon Prince, but it was pure luck, and I'd already whittled the thing down to one wound with some Tau-y shooting.

 

One instance does not a tactica make. If you want to approach list-building effectively, you need to step back from those moments of pure awesome and look at what's most effective. Look at what a unit adds to your list, and what it denies you the ability to take. Vanguard deny you another unit of Land Speeders, the Land Raider is going to shrink the size of your firebase, and the point consumption is going to significantly reduce your model-count. If your army can still put an effective number of boots on the ground and make due with a smaller firebase, and the Vanguard will be adequate for the role for which you have equipped them, then go for it. Otherwise, your best bet is to pass on them for a competitive list.

 

(And my apologies to thade again... you're just too darn convenient in your timing!)

[fredbob524]

Dang Jackelope King beat me to it, but he is correct, once my thunderfire cannon took out a squad of TH/SS termies this was because they where bunched up i rolled great and my opponent rolled pretty bad. This does not mean when I see terminators I go to my thunderfire cannon first because it is so great at killing them, I still throw up null zone and use ap 1 and 2 plus power weapons to get the job done. Having great luck is one thing, but using the more reliable option would seem to make more sense

[thade]

(And my apologies to thade again... you're just too darn convenient in your timing!)

 

My sample-size is pretty big, actually; my vanguard has killed a lot of combat terminators. I'd cite more instances, but I don't want to despoil your example, which is important. ;)

 

I'm trying to combat the trend of people bashing Vanguard. I appreciate you combatting the trend of people not knowing basic statistics. :D

[Jackelope King]

(And my apologies to thade again... you're just too darn convenient in your timing!)

 

My sample-size is pretty big, actually; my vanguard has killed a lot of combat terminators. I'd cite more instances, but I don't want to despoil your example, which is important. ;)

 

I'm trying to combat the trend of people bashing Vanguard. I appreciate you combatting the trend of people not knowing basic statistics. :D

S'allgood.

[Bannus]

I'm suprised that no one has brought up another option for Vanguard;

 

The plasma pistol.

 

I know, I know - your first reaction is that the plasma pistol just isn't worth the points anymore.

 

But is it?

 

Used in mass (say upgrade one-in-two Vanguard - maybe more), the weapons can be devastating. Each Marine will hit first on a 3+ (regardless of the opponent's WS or Initiative) witha Str7 hit tthat ignores armor saves. Whatever survives the initial fusilate will easily fall prey to masses of chainsword attacks and the Sergeant's power weapon.