How many Vanguard

[fredbob524]

@bannus plasma pistol make it even more expensive, and while they can cause damage they are risky on such expensive models

[Meatman]

Plus the fact if you've paid a lot of points for a combat unit, you want it to be in combat as much as possible. Spending 15 points per model to get one or 2 plasma shots per game is not a good use, in my opinion.

[thade]

@bannus plasma pistol make it even more expensive, and while they can cause damage they are risky on such expensive models

 

This is not correct, provided you're using my recommended load out schema. A plasma pistol costs the same as a power weapon/lighting claw and is an upgrade. I was actually considering this on my way to work this morning, Bannus...

 

2-4 vets with plasma pistols, 1 storm shield (maybe), PF on the serg, 2-4 more vanilla, all foot-slogging in a transport.

 

Now in melee they will hit *hard* with upwards of 40 attacks on the charge (if you fill out to ten and don't take the PF or storm shield...if you do, you lose two attacks - serge gets no offhand with a PF, storm shield gets no off-hand - but gain three power fist hits), but pre-charge they have a very good chance of dropping a chunk of MEQ models.

 

I am actually going to try this. Mathhammer aside, they might play very well alongside my tac squads and tanks (way I play them anyway).

[Ming]

I'll go with the comparison test.

 

Everyone who reads this has homework this week.

 

Take a Vanguard squad equal to 200 to 235 points (to be a terminator squad equivalent).

 

Attack a similar point enemy unit. Fight until one or the other unit is eliminated.

 

Report results back here. Loadout of prey item and predatory unit. Number of turns to take down prey item.

 

If steroids or amendments are used (librarian zones for example) please include.

 

Tell opponent that once the experimeent begins, no interference is warranted until completed.

[Bannus]

I am also suprised at the reactions to the plasma pistols.

 

Remember, we are talking about weapons that hit and kill the opponent before you even enter close combat. That - in and of itself - is a good thing.

Also, it means more Marines capable of inflicting harm on monsterous creatures like Wraithlords/etc. Plus the bonus of taking down tanks through their thinner side/rear armor (the Land Raider being an obvious exception).

[fredbob524]

plasma pistol costs the same as a power weapon but lets break it down:

Plasma pistol versus MEQ 2/3 chance of hitting X 5/6 chance of wounding = 10/18 chance of killing a marine

also 1/6 chance of over heating X 1/3 chance of failing that save = 1/18 shot of dying

Now in CC you will have 4 atks so /2 chance of hitting X 1/2 chance of wounding X 1/3 chance of a failed save = 1/2(4) or 1/3 a chance of killing some one in cc

 

Power weapon

Bolt pistol 2/3 hitting X 1/2 chance of wounding X 1/3 = chance of a failed save so a 1/12 shot of killing an MEQ

that MEQ you had a 10/18 chance of killing with your plasma pistol now has 1 atk so 1/2 chance of hitting X 1/2 chance of wounding X1/3 chance of a failed save = 1/12 chance of dying to that marine you could have killed

now is assault 1/2 chance to hit X 1/2 chance to wound = 1/4(4) so 1 dead marine

 

 

Summary: the Plasma pistol marine has a 1/18 chance of dying to the pistol and a 16/18 chance of killing a marine

The Power weapon one should kill 1 and 1/12 marines and has a 1/12 chance of dying to that marine it could have killed with the plasma pistol if the plasma pistol killed it

 

clearly a power weapon is better

Against GEQ's the plasma pistol will still cause the same but every thing else will do better

Against TEQ the Power weapon still kills 1-2 depending while the plasma pistol is also equally less effective

I would not recommend counting on 2-4 plasma pistols to kill armor

An Finally MC's should be dealt with by more appropriate stuff like sternguard

[thade]

Remember, we are talking about weapons that hit and kill the opponent before you even enter close combat. That - in and of itself - is a good thing.

 

Not always. It will increase my pre-charge kills by one or two models, but because my opponent can take casualties from anywhere in the unit, he may be able to pull enough of his models that I can no longer close for an assault.

 

That said, while I appreciate your mathhammer, fredbob, it precludes basically everything else about the game, as it makes the following assumptions:

 

- the Vanguard squad is all within 6" of the target squad: sometimes I can only get a few monels into btb, in which case a few shots from plasma would be nice.

- there is no intervening terrain or units: this is never true. There's always a hedge or a wall or rocks or wrecked tanks or live tanks between me and my quarry. At the very least, if this is an ideal situation, one of my tactical squads is between me and the target.

- neither unit is in terrain (or we make a sufficient difficult terrain check to get everybody within strike range): everybody hides in cover these days which is why it's good I have frag grenades...which I wouldn't have were I a unit of Lit Claw terminators.

- You want to charge right now: maybe you're trying to bait them out to charge you so you can cut them off from support with your Rhinos or surprise-counter charge them with a Dreadnought or a tac squad or even a Dev squad. Yes, I'm serious. Extra attacks are extra attacks, but I'm not moving that dev squad unless I *know* they're going to kill something.

 

Here comes another reason why I prefer Vanguard over Terminators: base-size. I can fit a lot more vanguard into a tight area than I can Terminators. I can more easily weasel them into ruins, between other units (maintaining that 1" from enemies I don't want to engage) and snake them in ways to draw more enemy units into the assault. It also helps me be selective as to how many of YOUR models you can put into combat with me: if you can't get a particular model into BtB or within 2" of one of your other models that is, that model can't attack. It's easier to make BtB on a terminator, which helps you maximize your attacks. I'm not into that. :) Remember when I wanted to charge through my tactical squad? If my tac squad isn't just so, the terminators will have trouble sneaking through them with their fat feets. Not so the Vanguard.

 

Finally, when you fail to kill all the models in that unit with your TH/SS cheesanator squad, they break and run and you cannot Sweep them. Bye bye, Kill Point. (These are MEQ, right? Auto-rally and hey! Now they're putting Rhinos in the way.) Sweeping Advance is underrated and can boost the amount of effective wounds the squad does in combat.

 

Finally, never take a power sword. When mathhammer speaks, it shows us that a single lightning claw is strictly better than a power sword. It's a shame, really. Power swords look cool.

[fredbob524]

@ thade you are right that mathammer was completely in a vacuum adding in terrain and the like does change stuff.

Als you are right a lightning claw is better almost all of the time

However I cannot figure you out, do you not run th/ss termies because you hate the so called cheesiness of them or do you honestly find vanguard better?

[thade]

However I cannot figure you out, do you not run th/ss termies because you hate the so called cheesiness of them or do you honestly find vanguard better?

 

I apologize; it's unfair of me to smack the "cheeziness" label on TH/SS terminators. They are very effective.

 

Do I find Vanguard more effective than TH/SS? It depends on the application. On an almost bare table with few vehicles or a LOT of anti-vehicle fire I'd rather have the TH/SS terminators. However, with a reasonable number of vehicles, anti-vehicle fire, and LOS-blocking terrain as well as area terrain, I'd rather have the Vanguard as I can pull stunts with them that people don't expect, and people often under (or over) estimate them...either of which puts me at a subtle advantage. I can squeeze them into small areas that I can't fit terminators allowing me to pull of some crazy assaults.

 

The reason I got into Vanguard was, frankly, that *everybody* told me that TH/SS were "better for less points" and "Vanguard were not worth it". I felt driven to find out for myself, and had a great time painting them up.

 

Same thing's forming up here with plasma pistols, as even I find myself agreeing that they're not as good as melee weapons for a vanguard and wouldn't I rather stick plasma on a command squad or just take a Sternguard? Well, experimentation sounds like fun to me, and I enjoy painting marines. =)

[fredbob524]

Ah so you play less competitive more casual

If you do play in tournies do you find your self running into comp often? this is the one maybe good reason for them in my book

[thade]

Ah so you play less competitive more casual

If you do play in tournies do you find your self running into comp often? this is the one maybe good reason for them in my book

 

I do play tournies, but I haven't used a veteran melee unit (Termies or Vanguard) in one in a while. Last time I ran a literal marine horde with tac squads, assault squads, and dev squads. That said, tournaments around here do use comp, but I don't pay much mind to it as I never use anything that would upset them. ;)

[fredbob524]

@ thade so if you find yourself cutting vanguard out of your tournie lists, even though in a foot list as you said you run they could be kinda useful how can you in good conscious tell the OP that the answer is not 1 is to many Vanguard

[thade]

@ thade so if you find yourself cutting vanguard out of your tournie lists, even though in a foot list as you said you run they could be kinda useful how can you in good conscious tell the OP that the answer is not 1 is to many Vanguard

 

The reason I don't use Vanguard in tournaments is the same reason I don't use Terminators in tournaments. It's very simple.

 

200 pts gets me five terminators with no transport.

200 pts gets me six or seven Vanguard with no transport.

200 pts gets me ten marines in a Rhino.

 

I put 90 marines on the table at tournies and I do okay; also it's pretty fun.

 

The OP's question was regarding Vanguard, and so "in good conscience" I shared my experience and feelings on Vanguard. I'm not sure I see what your issue is? Perhaps you've not tried a Vanguard or seen success with the one you did try?

[fredbob524]

I have read what others who are smarter and more experienced than me when it comes to 40k say about them, and I have tested them quite bit, what I really have a problem with is someone who takes it upon them self to try to tell a player who has no idea about a unit that it is good when it really is pretty bad. THat is what I have a problem with and it is people like that, that drive players away from the game after they keep losing, and people away from these great forums because of the obvious bad advice. We try on this forum to provide a better environment than some forums ... but advice like this makes people think of us in the same was as they look at those other forums.

[thade]

I have read what others who are smarter and more experienced than me when it comes to 40k say about them, and I have tested them quite bit, what I really have a problem with is someone who takes it upon them self to try to tell a player who has no idea about a unit that it is good when it really is pretty bad. THat is what I have a problem with and it is people like that, that drive players away from the game after they keep losing, and people away from these great forums because of the obvious bad advice. We try on this forum to provide a better environment than some forum ... but advice like this makes people think of us in the same was as they look at those other forums

 

So...you are either trying to pick a fight with me, or plainly telling me that I am giving advice that is purely bad? Um, well, okay. Here are my responses:

1. Please don't be a troll. If that's not your intention, I recommend changing the way you word things, because - frankly - you're getting a bit personal.

2. You're entitled to your opinion, which I believe is that you dont like Vanguard. That's fine: you are like many.

 

I think there are people on here who do in fact value my advice. Possibly because I use Vanguard once or twice a week, and with a reasonable amount of success. I don't believe that your benchmark is accurate (namely that trying to point and say "Look, everybody, look at Thade! He likes Vanguard but hasn't used them at a tournament in a year!") because you are inferring that the REASON I haven't used Vanguard is that they are bad. That is not the reason at all. The reason I have not used Vanguard at a tournament for a year is simply that I like variety.

 

The OP wanted advice on Vanguard, and so I gave advice on Vanguard. If you don't like it, well, welcome to the Internet.

[fredbob524]

@thade sorry that came off worse then I intended it i just want to try to keep this forum out of the muck that other forums succumb to

[thade]

@thade sorry that came off worse then I intended it i just want to try to keep this forum out of the muck that other forums succumb to

 

That you imply I am the cause for the muck is bad enough. =P I don't appreciate it.

 

This is a good forum because we have an awesome base of people who are consistently on here, and some awesome moderators. If I'm out of line, one of said moderators will wave his hammer at me. Don't sweat it; it's not your job to. <3

[Bannus]

Let's remember that everyone is entitled to an opinion. ;)

[thade]

Let's remember that everyone is entitled to an opinion. ;)

 

That fact I would not dispute. =) Anyway, back to the scene.

 

Vanguard = 1-3 power weapons (at least one fist), as many vanilla vets, and 1-2 storm shields. For best results, use an LRC with EA and a melee-support IC (e.g. Chaplain, a mean captain, Calgar). YMMV.

[fredbob524]

if we are going that expensive how about ten of them w/ 10 ss 9 thunderhammers, 1 relic blade and 10 jump packs for like 430 points, or Landraider Librarian Khan 10 of them with 9 lighting claw sets and a relic blade

[thade]

if we are going that expensive how about ten of them w/ 10 ss 9 thunderhammers, 1 relic blade and 10 jump packs for like 430 points, or Landraider Librarian Khan 10 of them with 9 lighting claw sets and a relic blade

 

Not sure what you mean. A Vanguard as I described it with 1 model with a PF, 2 models with single LCs, 2 models with storm shields, and 8 models total would cost 255 points.

 

The unit you describe costs 745 points, not 430. (Did you remember to add in the cost of the JPs, the cost of marines beyond the initial 5, and the sheer mass of points nine THs costs the Vanguard? You can buy another mounted Vanguard for the THs alone!) It's easy to sink too many points into Vanguard, which is why I think people don't like them. Just be sparring and they will do you well.

 

For 225 points, you can take 10 Vanguard with no upgrades (save the power sword on the sergeant). That's 40 attacks on the charge and the entire unit has Ld 9. They *will* kill something. Keep them in a Rhino parked behind your gunline and charge them out when your gunline needs melee support.

[Kay]

im using a 8 man vanguard squad as my captain (typical Rb+SS build) "command squad" i give them 3 SS 1 RB and 1 PF and a vanilla LR. All i can say that if not the best unit in my army, they have been performing above expected in every single game i have used them. they come to about 250 points (dont remeber exactly) but they earn every single point you pay for them. they have been able to obliterate from ork mobs to tyranid warriors (including zerk squads, plague marines, ABADDON with retinue, death company dudes...) they are quite resilient while in combat due to the fact that you have 4 SS (3+captain's) and they deliver quite an impressive punch when charging...

[thade]

I use Vanguard in much the same way: my defacto "command squad". (I can't bring myself to kit out an actual command squad for melee, because being restricted to five marines doesn't allow for ablative wound marines.)

 

More then one occasion my Vanguard has held the opponent's entire army mid-field while my tac squads skirt around the edges to offer support fire and claim objectives. That's very fun for me.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Sorry for "resurecting the topic again, but i have pne last question regarding Vanguard.

Is it better to have a power fist or a relic blade? PW's have higher strength, but relic's only have 2 less and strike in initative order.

What's better?

[fredbob524]

A relic blade, it will not be as good against rear armor av 11+ tanks but it will do better against infantry because it strikes at I