How many Vanguard

[thade]

Sorry for "resurecting the topic again, but i have pne last question regarding Vanguard.

Is it better to have a power fist or a relic blade? PW's have higher strength, but relic's only have 2 less and strike in initative order.

What's better?

 

Comes down to preference. Striking at I is nice, but a single Lit Claw (wounding on 3+, rerollable) is strictly better than a Relic Blade (wounding on 2+) vs T4...so for an all-comers list at I4 or better...it's not awesome. It is nice against targets with a higher T than 4 (e.g. Plague Marines) and T3 or less (if you're into insta-gibbing Eldar and IG commanders).

 

That said, a Power Fist is more versatile, and I often feel it's worth the I1-wait to be able to crack open a Dreadnought or Rhino. So, if I have enough power fists in the force, I'll take a Relic blade, at least for variety.

[ShinyRhino]

I like a powerfist in a large unit, and a claw or relic blade in a small one. Smaller units have more risk of taking enough wounds to threaten the powerfist, and causing it to die before it swings. If you're looking at a 7-10 man squad, you're probably safe taking the powerfist.

[thade]

I like a powerfist in a large unit, and a claw or relic blade in a small one. Smaller units have more risk of taking enough wounds to threaten the powerfist, and causing it to die before it swings. If you're looking at a 7-10 man squad, you're probably safe taking the powerfist.

 

I like this line of thinking.

[Metal Apostle]

Would you consider this to be overkill?

 

Relic blade, 2x single LC, 2x PF, 2x SS, 3 standard vets. Coming to 350pts, intended to be in a Crusader.

 

The loadout seems appealing but the points cost is pretty scary. I'm just not sure if i'd need that much assault power, even when taking on things like Mega-Armoured Warboss/retinues... What do you think? And as a White Scars player, i'm tempted to thow Khan in there too... But that's a LOT of points in one unit.

[Validar]

considering that you can get 2 double LC, 3 thunder hammers and 3 stormshields for almost half the price, with better armor save all over, while still being able to sit in the land raider I'd say your setup isn't optimal.

 

You aren't using the vanguard's potential, you're making them do something that assault terminators do better and cheaper. Vanguards are in PA, they can sit in rhinos/razorbacks, they've got granedes so they can assault through cover at no cost at all, they can take jump packs and use their heroic intervention rule and be able to sport at 18" threat range. Granted, some of those aren't superb options, but atleast you're using vanguards in a way only vanguards can be used, in which case you can explore the tactical advantedge of just that and possibly use that to get the upper hand (maybe your opponent havn't seen a lot of vanguards before and doesn't know how to react!).

 

Otherwise you're having the vanguard play the terminator role (basically the landraider charge unit) - you're taking a unit that, at a higher price, can't even do what the terminators can...

 

Now, I'm not saying one shouldn't use vanguards. I use them myself! But you really should consider using some of the options they have instead of going the "cookie cutter SM melee unit" way with the land raider. Vanguards can do some things that only vanguards can do - use that!

 

edit: I use 5 vanguards, 1 relic blade and 2 power weapons and jumppacks. They don't want to fight power weapon specialists, but they'll tear appart anything shooty, troops, etc. I can't say if they earn their points home, but it affects my opponent that he knows those 11 power weapon attacks are only 18" away.

[thade]

Would you consider this to be overkill?

 

Relic blade, 2x single LC, 2x PF, 2x SS, 3 standard vets. Coming to 350pts, intended to be in a Crusader.

 

The loadout seems appealing but the points cost is pretty scary. I'm just not sure if i'd need that much assault power, even when taking on things like Mega-Armoured Warboss/retinues... What do you think? And as a White Scars player, i'm tempted to thow Khan in there too... But that's a LOT of points in one unit.

 

I would drop one of the PFs either altogether or in favor of a standard Vet. If you're running them with an IC who's worth a damn in CC, I'd drop the Relic Blade too. Hitting at I4 with Str 6 is nice, but it's only two swings...so with all those bodies to soak hits, I'd go for S8.

 

Don't forget that Vanguard can fit more bodies (including attached ICs) into a Land Raider than can a Termie squad, *and* they can perform a Sweeping Advance (provided one of the ICs they charge in with is not in TDA). Hidden benefits.

 

I almost always put my Vanguard into a LR as it drastically boosts their survivability and increases their effective threat range, even over having jump packs (add on that 2" disembark).

[7Thunders]

You know i missed this thread the first time around.

 

my only dumb question is : why only use a single lightning claw?

would it not be better to use two?

 

or would it be best to try 1 lit claw with plasma pistol?

 

i'm asking because I too have just started to build a vanguard squad

to back up my sternguard who seem to constantl get beat in close combat

 

now with the new dark eldar,if i dont find away to handle them when they

quickly get past my gunline i can expect to lose alot.

[thade]

my only dumb question is : why only use a single lightning claw?

would it not be better to use two?

 

It's a points-thing. Lightning claws are expensive; two of them cost even more and add only one additional attack, and when that one model dies, you've lost a good chunk of points. I don't put dual-wielding on anything that doesn't make it worth it...meaning only Captains who come with multiple wounds and invuln saves.

 

I can't put the points up here of course, but you can see for yourself: compare the cost of a single Vanguard model with two Lit claws to two models each with single claws. Now compare how many Lit Claws attacks you get, and how many Lit Claws attacks you still have when one of those models dies...

 

or would it be best to try 1 lit claw with plasma pistol?

 

This is actually a very bad idea in my mind because

1. It's more than one combat upgrade on a single model, making him a large points loss when he dies.

2. You don't get an extra attack for having a pistol with that single lightning claw.

3. Plasma can potentially kill the model shooting it, which in this case also loses you a lightning claw.

 

i'm asking because I too have just started to build a vanguard squad to back up my sternguard...

 

You could do this with an assault squad, or a Vanguard with only a few upgrades. Not that I'm discouraging you from taking Vanguard; I just seldom take both the Vanguard and the Sternguard in the same list myself.

[7Thunders]

@ Thade: thanks for the response.

However i have a tendency to live an die by my sternguard :lol:

 

i see now why you would'nt want to add two lit claws.

So what would you suggest as the other weapon on the other hand?

[BrotherWade]

My 7 man vanguard squad has served me well over the year I have played in my local area. RB, 2 men armed with 1 LC, everyone with melta bombs, and everyone is given a jump pack. I attached a jump pack chaplain with melta bombs and a digital weapons to the unit. They have chewed thought a lot given everything, I usually jump them with a rhino squad and dreadnought and turn a flank with them to take objectives or use them as generic counter assault. They are my general swiss army knife assault unit. Dish out 6 LC attacks on the charge, 3 RB attacks on the charge, and 4 PW attacks on the charge all of which re-roll to hit and most of which re-roll to wound except the str 6 attack.

 

Statistically, they are not suppose to be as good as other unit in the marine book I know, but from trial and error I basically found this to be acceptable for my armies needs. I have never tried the whole Heroic intervention trick though. The re-rolling to hit with 8 melta bombs helps against pesky fast moving vehicles that stay out of range of my lascannons (fire prism and hammerhead but will jump about any vehicle that is giving me problems).

 

Just my 2 cents.

[thade]

i see now why you would'nt want to add two lit claws.

So what would you suggest as the other weapon on the other hand?

 

A bolt pistol. =)