Vangaurd Veterans

[NExOBLIVISCARIS]

Is it possible for after you deepstrike a 10 man Vanguard veteran squad to combat squad them then have each one of the combat squads use HI on different squads?

[Brother Nathan]

Huh? i think you combat sqad before you deepstrike them, but only 1 reserve roll for both halves, so both haves can use hi...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you split them into combat squads and deep strike them you roll for their reserves separately. They can both use HI.

 

0b :lol:

[shatter]

C:BA p23

 

"The decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which model goes into each combat squad, must be made when the unit is deployed. Both combat squads can be deployed in separate locations. The one exception to this is a unit that arrives by Drop Pod - the player can choose to split such a unit into combat squads when it disembarks."

 

"If you decide to split a unit into combat squads, then each combat squad is treated as a separate unit for all game purposes from that point."

 

BRB p 94 (2nd paragraph on rolling for reserves)

"Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks up any one of the units arriving and deploys it..."

 

If one, like me, believes deployment happens from reserve, then you must combat squad after the reserve roll. The drop pod exception speaks of where the squads are placed, ie. both must exit the pod.

This is not an uncommon interpretation. This way, both drop pod and non-drop pod are treated the same as far as reserve rolls go. Consistance is good. It also adds weight to the common inference that squadded units must enter play via the same mechanic (DS vs table edge) weather you bought them a ride or not and who rides in it. It also forces pods completely full or completely empty.

 

Some people feel that placing a unit in reserve is deployment, but that's not what the rules state.

 

So, the method is, pre game-start declare unit(s) (with attached ICs) in DS reserve as opposed to walk on reserve. Roll for reserves at the appropriate phase in successive turns. When the 10 man (and ICs) gets it's roll made, one then declares if combat squadding occurs (as this is the moment of their deployment) and which models are in which squad. Then, one squad is selected and DS rules for placement followed, then the other combat squad before moving on to any other units to enter on the same reserve phase.

 

(This is where Dante, priest and 10 VV shine, roll placement on 5VV HI, use tactical precision to autoDS Dante, priest and 5VV to give the previously placed HI 5VV FC and FnP throughout their assault)

 

So, getting back to the OP, (from how it's played in my neck of the woods,) yep, one reserve roll, 2 HIs possible on squadded 10 man VVs and possible on two different targets. The HI rule asks that you state that the unit is doing it, not what it's target is so one is free to select whatever is left in range after all the other units in your force have fired at/assault moved etc.

 

This comes up from time to time in the official rules sub-forum.

 

And, BO. I've noted your preference for a cheap VV squad and often wondered why you didn't favour the double hit/flexibility on a 10 man squad in order to save half of them from a single retaliatory unit. I guess this is why.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I now like one squad as such:

 

Sergeant - power fist & shield

4x bolt pistol & power sword

 

I used to run seven as such:

 

Sergeant - thunderhammer & shield

Vet #1: lightning claw & shield

Vet #2: lightning claw & shield

Vet #3: lightning claw & shield

Vet #4: lightning claw & shield

Vet #5: power sword & infernus pistol

Vet #6: chainsword & bolt pistol

 

Obviously the second squad is meaner and kill two MEQ squads on the charge. This build clocks in around close to 400 points though. The first squad allows me to field another assault squad and I've found I prefer this approach. The small squad of VV is stick potent with all those power swords. They obviously don't last as long but they are still good at what they do.

 

0b ;)

[Mezkh]

It's worth noting the same applies to RAS and 10 strong terminator squads as well of course. You (optionally) combat squad after you've passed a single reserve roll, can deploy each 5 strong squad in seperate locations and if so get to decide which of the two 5-man squads any attached ICs will join.

 

I've always wondered why I don't see more people taking advantage of maxxing elite squads likely to be held in reserve so that they can take advantage of this combat squad rule. It's pretty advantageous to have two fully separate squads arrive through design at the same point of the game this way. I think it's because many people don't understand it.

[Morollan]

I think it's because many people don't understand it.

 

I think it's because GW hasn't made the rules clear in the rulebook. Quel surprise!

[Mezkh]

I think it's because many people don't understand it.

 

I think it's because GW hasn't made the rules clear in the rulebook. Quel surprise!

 

So in other words because many people don't understand it. :)

 

Ha I agree though. they don't 'spell it out'.

[skawolf]

I see references to putting Dante in Vanguard squads, wouldn't they lose Heroic intervention in that case? What would be the point of Vanguard then?

[Mezkh]

I see references to putting Dante in Vanguard squads, wouldn't they lose Heroic intervention in that case? What would be the point of Vanguard then?

 

From what I can tell it's so that you can guarantee FNP and FC on the first vanguard squad you place by putting down Dante and a priest within range using his precision.

 

I think you give up too much for this though.

[vonny]

not quite on topic, but because it came up here anyway and I've never found an answer to this: what if you have (for example) a 10-man termi squad with a dedicated land raider in reserve. Can you combat squad such that one walks on while the other comes in embarked in the vehicle? Or, in the case of us blood angels, could you have one combat squad deepstrike through teleport and the other deepstrike embarked in the land raider? As you have to say which units are embarked or not when you place them in reserve, but you don't combat squad them until deployment

[Glitch85]

I see references to putting Dante in Vanguard squads, wouldn't they lose Heroic intervention in that case? What would be the point of Vanguard then?

 

From what I can tell it's so that you can guarantee FNP and FC on the first vanguard squad you place by putting down Dante and a priest within range using his precision.

 

I think you give up too much for this though.

 

Dante doesnt give you FNP and FC does he???

 

But if you do put him with a Vanguard squad they lose there HI, it states in the codex that you cannot use HI if you attach an IC with the squad

[Morollan]

I think the idea is that you combat squad the VVs and attach Dante and the SP to one combat squad, using his special rule to land them where you need them to be. You then use HI on the second combat squad and (scatter permitting) they will hopefully be in range of the SP bubble when they assault.

 

Whether that is legal or not, I do not know.

[Mudpuppet]

I think the idea is that you combat squad the VVs and attach Dante and the SP to one combat squad, using his special rule to land them where you need them to be. You then use HI on the second combat squad and (scatter permitting) they will hopefully be in range of the SP bubble when they assault.

 

Whether that is legal or not, I do not know.

 

I think you put the non dante sp squad first then put dante and his priest etc down within range of them. This way scatters are less of an issue.

 

What makes you doubt the legality of this?

 

Mudpuppet

[Morollan]

I think you put the non dante sp squad first then put dante and his priest etc down within range of them. This way scatters are less of an issue.

 

What makes you doubt the legality of this?

 

Mudpuppet

 

Makes more sense that way. D'oh!

 

My only doubt on the legality of it is whether you can attach IC's to a VV squad without losing their HI ability, even if you combat squad them. I'm sure that's covered somewhere in the rules but I don't have the time to check it at the moment.

[Mezkh]

I think you put the non dante sp squad first then put dante and his priest etc down within range of them. This way scatters are less of an issue.

 

What makes you doubt the legality of this?

 

Mudpuppet

 

Makes more sense that way. D'oh!

 

My only doubt on the legality of it is whether you can attach IC's to a VV squad without losing their HI ability, even if you combat squad them. I'm sure that's covered somewhere in the rules but I don't have the time to check it at the moment.

 

They do lose HI, so Dante's priest squad doesn't get to assualt. Take some melta pistols perhaps..

 

It would probably be the best way you could guarantee a charge on a transported unit with HI. Most units clump though.

[Mezkh]

not quite on topic, but because it came up here anyway and I've never found an answer to this: what if you have (for example) a 10-man termi squad with a dedicated land raider in reserve. Can you combat squad such that one walks on while the other comes in embarked in the vehicle? Or, in the case of us blood angels, could you have one combat squad deepstrike through teleport and the other deepstrike embarked in the land raider? As you have to say which units are embarked or not when you place them in reserve, but you don't combat squad them until deployment

 

Answer: When you put your units in reserve during the deployment phase, you have to specify if they are going to use their special rules to enter (Deepstrike, outflank) or come in from your table edge. You can't change your mind later.

 

So if your terminators have a dedicated Land raider, you can 't deploy the Land raider into reserve with terminators inside and roll as one (can't combat squad, so can't fit.) So if you elect to deepstrike both units, and they happen to come in the same time, you can't deploy inside a Land raider even if you choose to then combat squad- you've already elected to deploy your terminators via deepstrike, and the deepstrike rules don't let you place your models inside vehicles when they come on :jaw:

[Brother Nathan]

on the dante and priest thing, surely it would be etter to put him in an hounourguard and them deepstrike near enough to pop a veichle and give the boost to the vanguard vets tat are hi ing the contents...

[vonny]

Answer: When you put your units in reserve during the deployment phase, you have to specify if they are going to use their special rules to enter (Deepstrike, outflank) or come in from your table edge. You can't change your mind later.

 

So if your terminators have a dedicated Land raider, you can 't deploy the Land raider into reserve with terminators inside and roll as one (can't combat squad, so can't fit.) So if you elect to deepstrike both units, and they happen to come in the same time, you can't deploy inside a Land raider even if you choose to then combat squad- you've already elected to deploy your terminators via deepstrike, and the deepstrike rules don't let you place your models inside vehicles when they come on :)

So this also prevents them from moving on to the table edge on the inside of their transport, as you can't combat squad before they move onto the table, so they don't fit into the land raider. Correct?

 

Anyway, thanks for the info, this was something that had really been confusing me for a while :D

[shatter]

on the dante and priest thing, surely it would be etter to put him in an hounourguard and them deepstrike near enough to pop a veichle and give the boost to the vanguard vets tat are hi ing the contents...

 

It could be as honourguard are able to be more shooty... except that's two reserve rolls to rely on to get the 1-2 punch. Nor does HG + 5 VV give you the option to decide deploy 10VV without ICs (1xHI), 2 x 5VV (2xHI) without ICs or 10VV with ICs (no HI). Versus many lists, having the options available will improve one's odds of winning.

 

10 man units with the combat squad rule allow you to make decisions for your deployment which simply are not possible with HG + a 5 man.

 

The only point I was trying to make really.

The Dante, priest and VV thing is a good example to show the options available while seeming similar to common internet builds featuring HG and 5-9 man buddy units. (sanguinary priest integration = HI cost. The SP required is more expensive than a chapter banner but adds a similar overall affect plus, another wound.)

[Brother Nathan]

i was more thinking of dante with the hounour guard and the 10 man vanguard vet squad that combat squads... and with doa them being on 2 reserve rolls there isnt a really big threat of them not turning up...