Return of the Plasmagun?

[MRC(+)]

It wasn't so long ago that almost all armies tried to max out their Lascannon/Plasma gun loadout to the greatest degree possible. With 5th edition, the change in vehicle penetration tables, and the rise of cover saves, melta weapons have supplanted plasmas as the "go to" weapon for most Power Armor armies.

 

There is a new trend occuring which I think may begin to return plasma weapons to the top of the SM arsenal.... the rising number of armies with access to FNP.

 

In recent codexes, several armies have been given access to FNP for multiple units, not just specific ICs. Top of the list is Blood Angels, with their Sanguinary Priests/Death Company spreading FNP accross the force, but they are not alone. Tyranids have access to it through Tervigons, CSM and Chaos Daemons have their Nurgle troops with FNP and C:SM have it through their Apothecaries in Command Squads. Now, with DE just cresting the horizon, their Power Through Pain ability means we should expect to see very large chunks of the DE Battleforce starting the battle with FNP (or getting it within a few turns). With the Daemonhunter and (possibly) Necron codexes looking to come down the line, I expect we will see even more FNP in the future.

 

How does this relate to Plasmas? Well, obviously, AP2 is what we are talking about. While cover saves may mitigate Plasma weaponry's ability to cut through armor, FNP means armies are still going to need to find a way to put out a large volume of AP 1/2 (or S8+) weaponry. Meltaguns and Missile Launchers both ignore FNP and fit in the current meta-game, but getting a high enough volume of shots from them is the dillemma (unless you are playing IG, of course B).

 

Plasma weapons (primarily guns, due to Rapid Fire) provides at least a partial solution to the proliferation of FNP. A balanced force will still need other options, as Plasma does not solve all problems (in fact, it creates a few, with the risk of Gets Hot! casualties), but I think that we will gradually see plasma return to a degree of its former prominence.

 

Thoughts?

[Jackelope King]

Thoughts?

Pretty strongly disagree.

 

Plasma has its place. It makes great extra shots on Las/Plas Razorbacks (similar to the role it fills on Fireknife Battlesuits in my Tau army). Good Strength, decent AP, rapid-fire... they're a nice bonus. And considering how similar it is to the Autocannon, something I sing the praises of constantly, I should similarly love Plasma, right?

 

Plasma has three small flaws which, when considered together, make it a poor choice until you get to high points-value games (when you have so many wounds to shoot through that it wraps back around again and becomes critical), especially with the cost consideration:

1. Range: 24" is better than 12" of melta, right? Sure. But it's vehicle-killing capacity isn't even in Melta's league. Our best comparison is to the autocannon, where the Plasma rifle is pathetic. We've got a 24" green-zone, where we're depending on our enemy to come to us. Ugly. After that, we dip into our red-zone with an 18" range where we can waddle up and rapid-fire, which is where plasma shines. This means that short of a few special cases (Scout Sergeant with Combi-Plasma, Wolf Scouts, Drop Pods), you will not fire plasma on turn 1. My Autocannons, on the other hand? They'll be shooting. That 48" range means I can reach out and dismount the enemy from the word "go". So it really adds precious little to our anti-light-vehicle capabilities, a pale shadow of the Autocannon.
   
2. AP: Wait, doesn't AP2 melt everything from Terminators on down? Doesn't it ignore FNP? Sure. But it doesn't have AP1. AP1 means you can kill vehicles on a glance, and have a 50/50 shot of a kill-shot on a penetrating hit. AP1 tremendously improves your odds of killing an enemy vehicle. AP2... does not. So you have to get into the same range as Melta weaponry to get those shots which are less effective. No thanks.
   
3. Unspammable: And here's where Plasma plays against the very nature of 5th Edition. Plasma is very expensive to spam, and each additional plasma weapon you take vastly increases the odds of you losing these expensive weapons every single turn. One plasma gun rapid firing has an 11% chance of killing off its wielder. Two have a 21% chance. You pull four such weapons out, and you've got a 37% chance of losing at least one plasma gun every turn. Now let's really spam it and get 8 of them on the field. Now every turn you have a 60% chance of killing off at least one plasma gunner every turn. Oh, and those 8 plasma guns are costing you 120 points. That's a lot of points down the drain. Below 2500 points, you're still limited in the number of points you can put on the table. This isn't a trivial cost. And for that same cost, you can get a lot of meltaguns on the table... 16 S7AP2 shots versus 12 S8AP1 shots. Obviously a rare scenario, but one indicative of the choice between melta and plasma.
   

 

Foot / Jumper Blood Angels are annoying, but their FNP is dependent on Priests. Focus fire on the Priests and FNP and FC go away. Or pull out all those dozens of missile launchers you've got sitting around. S8 causes instant death to Marines, so Feel No Pain is ignored. Works great against Nids, too, and that 48" range is gorgeous.

 

Dark Eldar... guess what? Autocannons cause instant death, so you ignore FNP anyway.

 

Plasma is gravy, pure and simple. Getting those extra shots on Las/Plas Razorbacks is a steal. In the hands of an infantryman, however, I don't feel as though the cost is justified in light of the above weaknesses. When cost stops being an object in high points-value games, then it's time to start throwing it into play. Below that... nah.

[minigun762]

Plasma weapons (primarily guns, due to Rapid Fire) provides at least a partial solution to the proliferation of FNP. A balanced force will still need other options, as Plasma does not solve all problems (in fact, it creates a few, with the risk of Gets Hot! casualties), but I think that we will gradually see plasma return to a degree of its former prominence.

 

I agree with the general conclusion you have, that Plasma is on the rise again.

That being said, it won't be replacing Melta anytime soon and thats because while the last few armies have had an increase in either FnP or MCs in their lists, the whole of 5th Edition is based heavily around transports and armor.

 

Personally, I end up using roughly a 1:1 ratio of Plasma to Melta backed up by Power Fists (which are basically the same thing as both but for HtH).

 

I agree partially with J. King's assessment, I think the key to remember is that Plasma won't be replacing Melta but instead supporting it.

[Assault-back Kid]

I have not seen a rise in plasma's around here but that doesn't mean elsewhere there not on the rise. I myself am weary of the get hot! roll because I am a poor dice roller lol, but I do see them as useful just not as useful as meltas yet. Given the fact that most of the time I am using something like a plasma or melta is because I am trying to open up a transport so I can assault whatever is inside, meltas win out for me. Also I am a Blood Angel player so it really doesn't behoove me to not take something that is so readily available in my codex.

 

They could be on the rise but certainly not in my area.

[skawolf]

I like plasmaguns, but don't like using them all that much. The reason for this is not because they "get hot" or that they aren't an instant tank popper, but rather because I don't like rapid fire weapons. I so wish plasmaguns were an assault weapon...... Though I have started taking a grey hunters unit equiped with two plasmaguns to use as a "drive by" unit with their rhino. I actually recently popped a chimera and killed 5 vets in the insuing explosion with this tactic. (and two of the vets were the meltagun guys thank god)

[pattison]

I use plasma in form of cannons and I love 'em.

Would love to use plasmaguns too but a meltagun for 5 points is a better deal. If a plasmagun was 5 pts too... ...

Plasma pistols suck IMO as they can be given to mostly sarges/champs/hqs.

Though I'd love to see an assault squad all armed with plasma pistols & ccws except the sarge...

Oh and not for 15 points of course, that's ridiculously high.

All in all plasma is cool.

I mean hot. Whatever.

[ShinyRhino]

I've been pumping plasma into my army of late. Two plasmaguns and a plasma pistol on a biker squad (8-strong, plus attack bike), and I often run a 4x plasmagun Command Squad, and a Librarian with a plasma pistol. In three separate games this past weekend, I lost a total of two Marines to overheats. I wiped out huge swathes of Genestealers and Orks with the shots.

Plasma kills MEQ dead, no questions asked.

 

My local crowd is not sold on the "Mech is King" playstyle. Oddly, we're a speed-centered group. Folks like their ThunderCav, IG AirCav, IG Horde, Ork Kan Wall, Kult of Speed, Marine Bikers, Nid Spawning Pool, MechDar etc. No one wastes their time with FotM netlists. So, plasma is effective in all of my games. Even when I DO face a heavy-mech list (BA trasnport spam), I found plasma to be more than able to crack Rhinos/Razors when fired in numbers.

[Kay]

Melata's S8 instakills pretty much everything

Plasma's s7 does not

[pattison]

Yes, but do you have melta templates, melta rapid or melta pistols in C:SM? No.

Okay, the meltagun is an assault weapon, but I still think you can't do the same as plasmacannons with anything else (inclusive doing it at 36").

[Jackelope King]

Okay, the meltagun is an assault weapon, but I still think you can't do the same as plasmacannons with anything else (inclusive doing it at 36").

Plasma cannons are not something I'd recommend. I actually rate them well below plasma guns. Small template means you'll usually get one hit, two on a good scatter, three with great luck (PA armies tend to spread out when there's plasma cannons on the table, which is a strength that must be acknowledged).

 

But it's just one shot. This is a critical flaw that you have to realize when you get up to high points-value games, and it comes time to start shooting your way through 60+ T6 Sv3+ wounds (yeah, Nids can put that many MCs on the table). Even a normal plasma gun can get two chances to put wounds on an MC. And at high points-value games (2500+), that's gonna be key.

 

Then consider how you'll get plasma cannons on the table. That comes down to Devastators and Sternguard. Devs are bad in Codex: Space Marines. A squad with no extra bodies and 4 plasma cannons clocks in at a stupifying 190 points. Sternguard, on the other hand, are good. Quite good. That said, when you ask them to tote plasma cannons around, you're probably turning them into a Plasma Cannon Bunker in a Rhino, so you're paying a big price up-front to get two Plasma Cannon shots per turn (especially in lost Special Ammo shots). This unit clocks in at 180 points. These are both very expensive investments for such a small number of shots, and for the same price as the Sternguard Squad, I can buy a Sternguard Squad with a pair of heavy flamers that'll operate in its optimum range-band more frequently, where it's always an option to jump and and rapid-fire and heavy flamer whoever happens to be exposed to death. And you've got better things to do with your Heavy Support slots.

[Myxx]

I absolutely love plasmacannons, guns not so much. It pays off to have that blast to throw around at orks, nids, etc. that cluster lots of models in small spaces.

[ShinyRhino]

I absolutely love plasmacannons, guns not so much. It pays off to have that blast to throw around at orks, nids, etc. that cluster lots of models in small spaces.

 

Or anythign that has just arrived via Deepstrike, or been spilled out of its transport involuntarily.

[BearersOfSalvation]

Or anythign that has just arrived via Deepstrike, or been spilled out of its transport involuntarily.

 

Only squads (not vehicles) that arrived via deepstrike but not drop pod and chose to shoot. Drop podders don't have to go Btb, and anyone not shooting can run to get some space. I'm not sure why units spilled out of a transport involuntarily would be packed tightly, it's the spilled player's choice. You only have to be within 2" of an access point, so you can get a so-so spread on just one side, and can form a "C" around a multi-access vehicle like a rhino, and should if there's significant scary AOE.

[minigun762]

Melata's S8 instakills pretty much everything

Plasma's s7 does not

 

True but Plasma has 2x the range and 2x the number of shots up close.

 

1 round of shooting with insta-kills vs 3+ rounds of shooting without, its hard for the Melta to compete with that for infantry killing unless everything you're shooting at has 3+ wounds @ T4 like Tyranid Warriors or SM HQs.

 

EDIT: J. King points out that its too early for me to be doing basic math...

[Jackelope King]

Melata's S8 instakills pretty much everything

Plasma's s7 does not

 

True but Plasma has 3x the range and 2x the number of shots up close.

... 3x the range? 24" is not 3x greater than 12" :jaw:

[ShinyRhino]

Or anythign that has just arrived via Deepstrike, or been spilled out of its transport involuntarily.

 

Only squads (not vehicles) that arrived via deepstrike but not drop pod and chose to shoot. Drop podders don't have to go Btb, and anyone not shooting can run to get some space. I'm not sure why units spilled out of a transport involuntarily would be packed tightly, it's the spilled player's choice. You only have to be within 2" of an access point, so you can get a so-so spread on just one side, and can form a "C" around a multi-access vehicle like a rhino, and should if there's significant scary AOE.

 

A unit arriving by deepstrike must land in a B2B spiraled cluster. If they do not shoot, they can Run to spread, but that's about it.

 

A 10-man squad dumped out of a Rhino doesn't have all that much space to deploy into. 2" is nice and all, but with 10 men to plonk down, you're getting 3-4 hits with a smack-on blast template, easy. Even easier if you exploded the vehicle and are restricted to staying inside the resultant crater area.

[minigun762]

... 3x the range? 24" is not 3x greater than 12" ;)

 

 

Oops! :huh:

I was thinking of Flamers for some reason, I'll fix that.

[Ming]

I agree with Shiny. And having as many AP2 or AP1 fire dice is very important. I find the get hot rule worth the risk. And 3 plasma guns in a command squad is devastating to the opponent at much lower risk to you. Since I have little access to multi-meltas (try to buy a single MM online....much less 4 of them LOL), squads that might have carried that weapon use plasma cannons instead.

[chaplain belisarius]

thats odd...lately ive gone from meltas to plasma in my tactical squads (plasma cannon and plasma gun) and they are performing much better as a mostly shooting unit...glad its not just me doing this! :huh:

[pattison]

As I see the plasma cannon is a love it or hate it weapon.

To respond to Jackelope King's analysis I always take them in tac squads (going into combat squads) for 5 points. And I take more than 1.

That is a freaking bargain imho.

There's nothing as sweet as blasting a 5 man squad of deep striking terminators to smoking goo.

[Jackelope King]

To respond to Jackelope King's analysis I always take them in tac squads (going into combat squads) for 5 points. And I take more than 1.

That is a freaking bargain imho.

There's nothing as sweet as blasting a 5 man squad of deep striking terminators to smoking goo.

A Multi-Melta is free, and helps more against the more-dominant approaches to 5th Edition (mech). The Multi-Melta Bunker Rhino is the reason Codex: Space Marines beats the pants off of Codex: Space Wolves and Codex: Blood Angels at controlling midfield.

 

A plasma cannon... smokes deep-striking terminators... that's not a particularly common or effective tactic these days. And vehicles laugh at plasma cannons.

 

As I said before, Plasma's gravy. You don't take gravy as your main course... you pour it on your meat and potatoes once your plate is already full (Las/Plas Razorbacks, Tau Fireknives, 2500+ point games).

[ShinyRhino]

As I said before, Plasma's gravy. You don't take gravy as your main course... you pour it on your meat and potatoes once your plate is already full (Las/Plas Razorbacks, Tau Fireknives, 2500+ point games).

 

That statement relies on the assumption that melta is THE meat. It might be A meat, but it's not THE meat.

Against anything but a Land Raider or a Russ tank on the board back line, I can successfully field plasmaguns on my biker squads, and do just fine.

Meltaspam is simply not the "only way to play."

[Jackelope King]

As I said before, Plasma's gravy. You don't take gravy as your main course... you pour it on your meat and potatoes once your plate is already full (Las/Plas Razorbacks, Tau Fireknives, 2500+ point games).

 

That statement relies on the assumption that melta is THE meat. It might be A meat, but it's not THE meat.

Against anything but a Land Raider or a Russ tank on the board back line, I can successfully field plasmaguns on my biker squads, and do just fine.

Meltaspam is simply not the "only way to play."

Yet that's not what I'm advocating. My Tactical squads usually run as Flamer/Multi-Melta these days, because that is the most effective way for a Rhino-Borne squad to hold Mdfield. I do believe that you benefit more from spamming melta than you do plasma (especially at lower points-value games), for the reasons I've already gone into.

 

There is no "only way to play". It's a game. But when a topic demands the most effective means to achieve a desired end in a competitive environment, then unfortunately, plasma will lose out in most cases (the caveats I noted above). Plasma is just squeezed from two sides (anti-light armor, the Autocannon beats it; anti-heavy armor, Melta beats it). There are ways to make it work, but these will often be less-than-optimal. You only have so many points and so many slots to shoves threats down your opponent's throat. Make the most of them. Save the gravy for when your plate is already full.

[Myxx]

You don't take gravy as your main course...

 

I would if I could...

[ShinyRhino]

The original topic was actually regarding an increase in plasma being taken to mitigate the increase in armies that get FNP now.

I feel plasma is a better FNP breaker because it disallows all armor saves, and has a 24" max range. A meltagun might disallow saves, but only at 12" range. At 12" plasmaguns can deny double the number of saves, by virtue of firing twice.

Multimeltas match the 24" range band of plasmaguns nicely, and also deny FNP. They beat plasma cannons on vehicle busting, but not on maximum number of models able to be wounded. Multmeltas are always 1, but plasma cannons are 0-4 or thereabouts.

 

The best way to solve mechanized FNP forces is to pair units into groups. Two tac squads? One can take a tank-buster weapon like a missile launcher or multimelta, and the other takes the anti-FNP weapons (plasma cannon and/or plasmagun). Should the anti-tank group fail, the plasma is at least capable as a backup. If the tank buster succeed, letloose with the palsma and deny FNP saves.

 

/shrug