DC and Land Raiders

[Mudpuppet]

Hi all,

 

As the topic suggests i am looking for info from anyone who has tried death company in a deep striking Land Raider.

 

The reason i ask is this, i am trying to shoehorn some DC into my army mainly for fluff reasons and i love the idea of a land raider in DC colours.

 

My idea was stick either:

 

1) Ten Death Company (one PF, one PW) in a Land Raider Redeemer with Multi-melta. 500 points

 

2) Five Death Company (one PF, one PW) and a Chaplain in a Land Raider Redeemer with Multi-melta. 500 points

 

Anyone think there is any merit to either of those or has tried it, or just wants to point out pros and cons please give it to me.

 

Mudpuppet

[skawolf]

I belive deepstriking land raider packed full of death company would be the most appropriate time to play some metal!

 

Now, on topic. I think it is a way cool idea, I want to do it myself as just the thematic element is cool enough to make it a viable tactic. Who cares if it works right?

[BigBaals]

One of the reasons I started playing BA a few years ago was Death Company. It's probably just me, but they just aren't performing the way I expect them to. When I run them, I toss them in a Land Raider with MM/EA. It's usually 8 DC, 1 TH, 1 PW, and the rest with Bolt Pistol/CCW. I'd recommend a Chaplain, and don't forget they are WS5! I haven't tried to deep strike them inside the Land Raider yet, I usually just drive them up.

 

Don't aim them at Assault Terminators with full Storm Shields.. you'll take out a couple terminators, maybe 3, but the final two will eat your squad.

[Ranwulf]

Hi all,

 

As the topic suggests i am looking for info from anyone who has tried death company in a deep striking Land Raider.

 

The reason i ask is this, i am trying to shoehorn some DC into my army mainly for fluff reasons and i love the idea of a land raider in DC colours.

 

My idea was stick either:

 

1) Ten Death Company (one PF, one PW) in a Land Raider Redeemer with Multi-melta. 500 points

 

2) Five Death Company (one PF, one PW) and a Chaplain in a Land Raider Redeemer with Multi-melta. 500 points

 

Anyone think there is any merit to either of those or has tried it, or just wants to point out pros and cons please give it to me.

 

Mudpuppet

 

For the love of god, don't deep strike a Land Raider. You will have a INCREDIBLY difficult to do it, since the LR:

 

1)Is freaking large, so much depending on the terrain, you will have to do it far away from the enemy.

 

2)If you scatter, there is a Large chance of Mishap. So you have a big chance of losing 300 point minimum.

 

3)When you get there, you can't assault. Only shoot the LR weapons.

 

4)Worse, usually you will get close to the enemy, enough for him using Meltas.

 

Seriously, either go normal(which even so I would not do it, since I rather get DC inside of Rhino and get as quickly as possible to combat) or get somenthing else.

 

Ran

[Zeller]

I've wanted to try it as well but there is the idea nagging at me that if I have to use an expensive unit to counter an expensive unit then I am not being as efficient with my tools as I can be. For the cost of the LR I can have two other fire support vehicles which will pump out more damage at longer range and with greater mobility than the LR. I've yet to have a reason to take a LR outside of wanting to.

 

My DC have been very brutally effective for me. They have taken down nob squads with the boss attached and come out with a few guys left. I normally take 50% or higher casualties and the chaplain always dies to a power klaw but I kill them dead if I charge.

[TheMouth]

Deep striking a land raider is not that difficult at all. People need to stop freaking out about. You don't do it in an aggressive manner. Land some place that is open, but far enough away that the next turn you can go the full distance and dump your troops out.

 

Deep striking DC in a Land Raider is awesome and fun, and scares the crap out of opponents no doubt about it.

[Ranwulf]

Deep striking a land raider is not that difficult at all. People need to stop freaking out about. You don't do it in an aggressive manner. Land some place that is open, but far enough away that the next turn you can go the full distance and dump your troops out.

 

Deep striking DC in a Land Raider is awesome and fun, and scares the crap out of opponents no doubt about it.

 

That is hardly somenthing I would call "easy", specially when it depends in the game terrain, enemy army(such as a Horde Army, is freaking impossible to do that), size of the table, special abilties that prevent from deep striking (like from the Wolves) without having chances of Mishap, if you get far away you might just have lost one turn of movement that you could easily have use at the start of the game, not forgetting, it still relies on your reserves rolls.

 

No. It's NOT easy. Specially because it WILL rely in MANY conditions just to get a expensive unit in position.

 

Ran

[Zeller]

Don't demon players do it with their Soulgrinders? *glances at defiler on the table* Same chassis, bigger than a land raider even. If they can do it so can we. Icons or not. We have our equivalents.

[TheMouth]

Deep striking a land raider is not that difficult at all. People need to stop freaking out about. You don't do it in an aggressive manner. Land some place that is open, but far enough away that the next turn you can go the full distance and dump your troops out.

 

Deep striking DC in a Land Raider is awesome and fun, and scares the crap out of opponents no doubt about it.

 

That is hardly somenthing I would call "easy", specially when it depends in the game terrain, enemy army(such as a Horde Army, is freaking impossible to do that), size of the table, special abilties that prevent from deep striking (like from the Wolves) without having chances of Mishap, if you get far away you might just have lost one turn of movement that you could easily have use at the start of the game, not forgetting, it still relies on your reserves rolls.

 

No. It's NOT easy. Specially because it WILL rely in MANY conditions just to get a expensive unit in position.

 

Ran

 

I am going to disagree with you, I do it about every game. Horde or other wise...sometimes to make it even easier I use a scout squad with a beacon. And you talk about missing a turn, correct, you miss a turn of doing anything deep striking it anyway. Sorry if you have not had much luck with it, but it is alot of fun and easy to do. Just remember its only on enemy models and impassable terrain that you need to be really concerned about. Take extra armour if you are really concerned about the dangerous terrain roll.

[Morollan]

sometimes to make it even easier I use a scout squad with a beacon.

 

This ^^

 

On several occasions I've deployed my scouts in cover and then dropped a LR Redeemer full of DC (with Chaplain or Reclusiarch) exactly where I want it.

[Ranwulf]

Deep striking a land raider is not that difficult at all. People need to stop freaking out about. You don't do it in an aggressive manner. Land some place that is open, but far enough away that the next turn you can go the full distance and dump your troops out.

 

Deep striking DC in a Land Raider is awesome and fun, and scares the crap out of opponents no doubt about it.

 

That is hardly somenthing I would call "easy", specially when it depends in the game terrain, enemy army(such as a Horde Army, is freaking impossible to do that), size of the table, special abilties that prevent from deep striking (like from the Wolves) without having chances of Mishap, if you get far away you might just have lost one turn of movement that you could easily have use at the start of the game, not forgetting, it still relies on your reserves rolls.

 

No. It's NOT easy. Specially because it WILL rely in MANY conditions just to get a expensive unit in position.

 

Ran

 

I am going to disagree with you, I do it about every game. Horde or other wise...sometimes to make it even easier I use a scout squad with a beacon. And you talk about missing a turn, correct, you miss a turn of doing anything deep striking it anyway. Sorry if you have not had much luck with it, but it is alot of fun and easy to do. Just remember its only on enemy models and impassable terrain that you need to be really concerned about. Take extra armour if you are really concerned about the dangerous terrain roll.

 

So you are expending not only a lot of points in a Land Raider and the squad within it, but also a Scout Squad? That's freaking expensive. Not only that, even if you deep strike, and you get where you should be, you lose one turn standing there, where a Melta can destroy it.

 

Not only is risky, but completely pointless. If you want an Assault Vechile that gets close to the enemy very fast, go with the Stormraven. Want do deep strike with your mighty unit? If you are using Termies, go Drop Pod.

 

Points wise, not worth it. Game wise, very risky, as it depends on enemy models, terrain, etc...

 

Ran

[Mudpuppet]

If you want an Assault Vechile that gets close to the enemy very fast, go with the Stormraven.

This was the other idea i was having. Stormraven with Death Company and maybe a DC dread or furioso if i can hammer in the points.

 

May be an overall better idea.

 

Ill have to mull it over and see what fits.

 

Cheers,

 

Mudpuppet

[TheMouth]

Deep striking a land raider is not that difficult at all. People need to stop freaking out about. You don't do it in an aggressive manner. Land some place that is open, but far enough away that the next turn you can go the full distance and dump your troops out.

 

Deep striking DC in a Land Raider is awesome and fun, and scares the crap out of opponents no doubt about it.

 

That is hardly somenthing I would call "easy", specially when it depends in the game terrain, enemy army(such as a Horde Army, is freaking impossible to do that), size of the table, special abilties that prevent from deep striking (like from the Wolves) without having chances of Mishap, if you get far away you might just have lost one turn of movement that you could easily have use at the start of the game, not forgetting, it still relies on your reserves rolls.

 

No. It's NOT easy. Specially because it WILL rely in MANY conditions just to get a expensive unit in position.

 

Ran

 

I am going to disagree with you, I do it about every game. Horde or other wise...sometimes to make it even easier I use a scout squad with a beacon. And you talk about missing a turn, correct, you miss a turn of doing anything deep striking it anyway. Sorry if you have not had much luck with it, but it is alot of fun and easy to do. Just remember its only on enemy models and impassable terrain that you need to be really concerned about. Take extra armour if you are really concerned about the dangerous terrain roll.

 

So you are expending not only a lot of points in a Land Raider and the squad within it, but also a Scout Squad? That's freaking expensive. Not only that, even if you deep strike, and you get where you should be, you lose one turn standing there, where a Melta can destroy it.

 

Not only is risky, but completely pointless. If you want an Assault Vechile that gets close to the enemy very fast, go with the Stormraven. Want do deep strike with your mighty unit? If you are using Termies, go Drop Pod.

 

Points wise, not worth it. Game wise, very risky, as it depends on enemy models, terrain, etc...

 

Ran

 

 

Please note that I said SOMETIMES I use a scout squad...and using a scout squad has more then one role...holding an objective as well as using that beacon for other vehicles/troops to drop in on. If I am using a scout squad or two, it is because I am dropping almost everything in. As far as your concern about melta, even if I did not deep strike the land raider and just moved it forward as fast as possible there is still one turn gone due to movement of shooting and assaulting...oh and now I am also closer for a multi-melta or melta shot. It works out to be roughly the same either way, even if I take a storm raven, deep strike or other wise I lose one turn due to movement or lost a turn to deep striking. Its the same either way. I am sorry you cant see that, but just remember this...HE WHO DARES WINS. : Bonus internets to anyone that knows the source of that quote :

[chaplainmeliadus]

Something to consider, according to the rulebook, a Deep Striking vehicle counts as moving flat out, so the Raider would get the 4+ cover save? Combined with smoke launchers, surely you wouldn't need to worry about incoming fire for that turn very much.

[princemigi]

Yup, I use them all the time! Never Deep Striked (or should that be Deep Struck? :S) them though.

I use 8 in a Crusader, with a Power Fist and two Power Weapons. With a Chaplain. Kind of overkill, yes. But why not? :lol:

They all come with boltguns, apart from the Power Weapon guys who have a Pistol for the extra attack.

 

I drive them forward with my other Crusader with Assault Termies. They jump out, rapid fire and then assault a nice target. If my opponent retaliates with his own assault troops I send in my Terminators, or a spare Assault Squad I have nearby, to help 'em out.

[Ranwulf]

Deep striking a land raider is not that difficult at all. People need to stop freaking out about. You don't do it in an aggressive manner. Land some place that is open, but far enough away that the next turn you can go the full distance and dump your troops out.

 

Deep striking DC in a Land Raider is awesome and fun, and scares the crap out of opponents no doubt about it.

 

That is hardly somenthing I would call "easy", specially when it depends in the game terrain, enemy army(such as a Horde Army, is freaking impossible to do that), size of the table, special abilties that prevent from deep striking (like from the Wolves) without having chances of Mishap, if you get far away you might just have lost one turn of movement that you could easily have use at the start of the game, not forgetting, it still relies on your reserves rolls.

 

No. It's NOT easy. Specially because it WILL rely in MANY conditions just to get a expensive unit in position.

 

Ran

 

I am going to disagree with you, I do it about every game. Horde or other wise...sometimes to make it even easier I use a scout squad with a beacon. And you talk about missing a turn, correct, you miss a turn of doing anything deep striking it anyway. Sorry if you have not had much luck with it, but it is alot of fun and easy to do. Just remember its only on enemy models and impassable terrain that you need to be really concerned about. Take extra armour if you are really concerned about the dangerous terrain roll.

 

So you are expending not only a lot of points in a Land Raider and the squad within it, but also a Scout Squad? That's freaking expensive. Not only that, even if you deep strike, and you get where you should be, you lose one turn standing there, where a Melta can destroy it.

 

Not only is risky, but completely pointless. If you want an Assault Vechile that gets close to the enemy very fast, go with the Stormraven. Want do deep strike with your mighty unit? If you are using Termies, go Drop Pod.

 

Points wise, not worth it. Game wise, very risky, as it depends on enemy models, terrain, etc...

 

Ran

 

 

Please note that I said SOMETIMES I use a scout squad...and using a scout squad has more then one role...holding an objective as well as using that beacon for other vehicles/troops to drop in on. If I am using a scout squad or two, it is because I am dropping almost everything in. As far as your concern about melta, even if I did not deep strike the land raider and just moved it forward as fast as possible there is still one turn gone due to movement of shooting and assaulting...oh and now I am also closer for a multi-melta or melta shot. It works out to be roughly the same either way, even if I take a storm raven, deep strike or other wise I lose one turn due to movement or lost a turn to deep striking. Its the same either way. I am sorry you cant see that, but just remember this...HE WHO DARES WINS. : Bonus internets to anyone that knows the source of that quote :

 

The difference is that with the Stormraven you can Flat out and get the cover save, with less risks. The thing about getting closer is, yoy get close enough of most of your enemies weapons, and he is a target priority, if you go walking you can in second turn already be close enough to charge. Stormravens can assault even when they flat out, and seriously, I think this is where an Air Force Motto should be applied, not in a no-sense throwing of your tpughest tank.

 

However, I think Land Raiders deep striking in Apocalypse games are AWESOME. I did it once, but that's because the table was three times the size of the normal table and I had many Locator Beacons around.

 

Ran

[SamaNagol]

7 dc with a fist and 2 pw in a raider with an elite chaplain is ample

[Ebsolom]

I run 10 DC (1x PF, 1x PW) and a Reclusiarch (IP) in a Redeemer with MM & EA. If I were going to deepstrike them (something I have yet to do, usually drive them in) I would use the Locater Beacon off one of my DC dread pods. I know I ain't going to be holding objectives but I'm going to have fun killing all my opponents little plastic soldiers :)

 

Shameless photo insert;

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m303/Ebsolom/Blood%20Angels%20WIP/DSC02387.jpg

[TheMouth]

I run 10 DC (1x PF, 1x PW) and a Reclusiarch (IP) in a Redeemer with MM & EA. If I were going to deepstrike them (something I have yet to do, usually drive them in) I would use the Locater Beacon off one of my DC dread pods. I know I ain't going to be holding objectives but I'm going to have fun killing all my opponents little plastic soldiers :)

 

Shameless photo insert;

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m303/Ebsolom/Blood%20Angels%20WIP/DSC02387.jpg

 

 

Even better idea then the scouts, and far cheaper! And great looking models mate!

[Mudpuppet]

I would use the Locater Beacon off one of my DC dread pods

 

Now theres a thought. One question though, my knowledge of drop pod mechanics is shakey at best. Can you choose not to deploy pods til turn 2? cos if you have to deplot them turn one, then your dreads are surely gonna be eating firepower until the rest of your army arrives turn 2 and after.

 

If you can hold them til turn 2 then get some lucky rolls you could have say 2 dreads a bunch of assault troops and a DS landraider all turn up at once? Thats scary. Great for VV too the homing beacon im assuming.

 

Something to consider, according to the rulebook, a Deep Striking vehicle counts as moving flat out, so the Raider would get the 4+ cover save? Combined with smoke launchers, surely you wouldn't need to worry about incoming fire for that turn very much.

 

Can someone confirm this? I cant find this in the rulebook at all. Seems to me it says vehicle counts as moving at cruising speed. And also i could only find the cover save thing for skimmers. So you should only get smoke launchers?

 

Land raiders arent fast are they? so they can only fire one weapon the turn they arrive due to "Power of the machine spirit"?

[TheMouth]

You can deploy empty drop pods...its really annoying to your opponent when a drop pod dumps right infront of his big bad ::whatever:: and its LOS is cut to the big middle finger painted on the hull of the drop pod. They are forced to waste a turn trying to pop the armour, or move. You must drop half fractions rounding up, on turn 1.

 

Vehicles count as cruising speed. Deep strike rules, 3rd paragraph from the bottom.

[Mudpuppet]

its LOS is cut to the big middle finger painted on the hull of the drop pod.

 

HAHAHAHA!

 

Mudpuppet

[Jakobus]

Something to consider, according to the rulebook, a Deep Striking vehicle counts as moving flat out, so the Raider would get the 4+ cover save? Combined with smoke launchers, surely you wouldn't need to worry about incoming fire for that turn very much.

 

Can someone confirm this? I cant find this in the rulebook at all. Seems to me it says vehicle counts as moving at cruising speed. And also i could only find the cover save thing for skimmers. So you should only get smoke launchers?

 

Land raiders arent fast are they? so they can only fire one weapon the turn they arrive due to "Power of the machine spirit"?

 

Yep, Vehicles arriving via Deepstrike count as moving at cruising Speed.

Flat out only applies to Fast Vehicles, which the Landraider is not due to incompatability with the Lucifer enhancement

The Flatout cover save only applies to Skimmers moving at a >12" speed, fast land vehicles do not get this rule

So when a Landraider Deepstrikes it only can use the PotMS to fire one weapon or it can pop smoke since there is no speed restriction on that (I won't go into the PotMS with Smoke I have seen too many arguements on that and that would be more suited to the Rules subforum)

 

As for the Landraider Deepstriking, I'm going to be using Warp Angels Killhammer as a guideline here

The Landraider is really not a huge threat by itself, sure its a big shiny target but when you look at its weapon loadout its not exactly devestating. What is the biggest threat about it is getting your assault units across the board without being killed and then the Assault ramp giving a Deathcompany loaded LR a threat range of approx 18".

 

The biggest issue with the Deepstrike Landraider is you are slowing down when your Assault unit is able to assault.

The Landraider will not be able to deepstrike until turn 2, and that is on a 4+ meaning that you will not be able to assault until turn 3, if the same Landraider was on the field turn 1 it will have been able to threaten approx 44" from its initial point of deployment by turn 3, since most tables I've seen are 48" across I'd say thats pretty good.

Now if you don't get that deep strike on turn 2 your expensive assault unit will not be able to do any assaulting unit turn 4 so only 2 reliable turns of assault. This becomes even more extreme if you don't get the deepstrike on turn 3.

 

This does not take into account the issue of Deepstrike scattering and mishaps which could mean that the 500 odd points you have invested in the Landraider and Unit just evaporate, get delayed again so you are less useful or placed out of the fight but still on the board.

 

I can see a couple of uses:

Larger than normal tables where you will be able to place the LR somewhere faster than it could possible get via normal

Objective capture / holding - Landing a LR on an objective turn 4 or 5 will dramatically increase you ability to survive and hold it.

Victory points... maybe... if you have a killy Deathstar assault unit in the LR you will want it to be earning you kill points not denying most times.

I guess there would be special scenarios that would run where the Deepstrike wouldbe an advantage, but they should be taken on a case by case system.

Certain tables could lend themselves towards Deepstriking, where there is a natural bottleneck and you are able to perform a Guns of Navarone type tactic.

[Mudpuppet]

Something to consider, according to the rulebook, a Deep Striking vehicle counts as moving flat out, so the Raider would get the 4+ cover save? Combined with smoke launchers, surely you wouldn't need to worry about incoming fire for that turn very much.

 

Can someone confirm this? I cant find this in the rulebook at all. Seems to me it says vehicle counts as moving at cruising speed. And also i could only find the cover save thing for skimmers. So you should only get smoke launchers?

 

Land raiders arent fast are they? so they can only fire one weapon the turn they arrive due to "Power of the machine spirit"?

 

Yep, Vehicles arriving via Deepstrike count as moving at cruising Speed.

Flat out only applies to Fast Vehicles, which the Landraider is not due to incompatability with the Lucifer enhancement

The Flatout cover save only applies to Skimmers moving at a >12" speed, fast land vehicles do not get this rule

So when a Landraider Deepstrikes it only can use the PotMS to fire one weapon or it can pop smoke since there is no speed restriction on that (I won't go into the PotMS with Smoke I have seen too many arguements on that and that would be more suited to the Rules subforum)

 

As for the Landraider Deepstriking, I'm going to be using Warp Angels Killhammer as a guideline here

The Landraider is really not a huge threat by itself, sure its a big shiny target but when you look at its weapon loadout its not exactly devestating. What is the biggest threat about it is getting your assault units across the board without being killed and then the Assault ramp giving a Deathcompany loaded LR a threat range of approx 18".

 

The biggest issue with the Deepstrike Landraider is you are slowing down when your Assault unit is able to assault.

The Landraider will not be able to deepstrike until turn 2, and that is on a 4+ meaning that you will not be able to assault until turn 3, if the same Landraider was on the field turn 1 it will have been able to threaten approx 44" from its initial point of deployment by turn 3, since most tables I've seen are 48" across I'd say thats pretty good.

Now if you don't get that deep strike on turn 2 your expensive assault unit will not be able to do any assaulting unit turn 4 so only 2 reliable turns of assault. This becomes even more extreme if you don't get the deepstrike on turn 3.

 

This does not take into account the issue of Deepstrike scattering and mishaps which could mean that the 500 odd points you have invested in the Landraider and Unit just evaporate, get delayed again so you are less useful or placed out of the fight but still on the board.

 

I can see a couple of uses:

Larger than normal tables where you will be able to place the LR somewhere faster than it could possible get via normal

Objective capture / holding - Landing a LR on an objective turn 4 or 5 will dramatically increase you ability to survive and hold it.

Victory points... maybe... if you have a killy Deathstar assault unit in the LR you will want it to be earning you kill points not denying most times.

I guess there would be special scenarios that would run where the Deepstrike wouldbe an advantage, but they should be taken on a case by case system.

Certain tables could lend themselves towards Deepstriking, where there is a natural bottleneck and you are able to perform a Guns of Navarone type tactic.

 

Yeah, i am moving more and more away from the idea of a DS landraider, it does seem to not make tactical sense. And all your points seem valid and well explained so thank you for that.

 

The one thing i will disagree with is that the weapon load out isnt devastating. Twin linked assault cannon, 2 flamestorm cannons, and a multi-melta is a brutal ammount of firepower if you can get it close to the enemy. If you could pull off a deep strike close to an enemy force and survive the subsequent shooting then no matter what is in range you can bring pain.

If he has two units of troops in range, hit one with the assault cannon and one flamestorm and use power of the machine spirit to make the second flamestorm target the second troops.

Or if he has troops and a vehicle hit the troops with the flames and assault cannon and PotMS the multi-melta the vehicle.

 

Where i think your right and this fails is that getting a good DS and then surviving the shooting is unlikely at the best of times. Unless you have a locator beacon drop pod nearby and no anti tank units near. Again, a rare occurance.

 

Mudpuppet

[ImperialReaper]

Well this made me thinking - since the Land Raider probablys is the best armor you can have:

Why not buy a scoutbiker squad with a beacon and place it in some cover or even bettter unseen. Then deepstrike a land raider crusader with 15 Death Compnaists and a priest just out of critical melter range and pop smoke. Also move up all your rhinos or troops you have straight into the enemy lines. The opponent should have a hard time to concider weather to shoot at the land raider or your other units incoming. Any way - blasting you rhinos would mean a 15 man death company rerolling hits and wound in his lines next round. Blasting the land raider means having all the other stuff in his lines next round - and IMO a damn land raider should hold some serious concentrated fire anyway!

 

I would use the Locater Beacon off one of my DC dread pods.

 

BTW:

The problem with beacons in pods is: the beacon has to be on the field since the beginning of the turn. This means you will only be able to use it the round after your dreadnought comes down and lucky dice rolls which would make you able to bring down the land raider and the pod in the same round would in fact be pretty unlucky since your land raider will not be able to benefit from the beacon and it will probably scatter. Of cause you can bring don your Dread at the beginning of the first turn or even an empty pod - but if I would see a pod in my lines with a beacon and a Land Raider in reserves I would seriously try to bring that thing down. Which however should not be to hard concidering it has an AV of 12.