Dembski-Bowden's 'the First Heretic' - future proofing

[Astalon]

Having discussed this topic before in a more round-a-bout way I have had the feeling there are some negative feelings towards my viewpoint, in the sense that it 'over-thinks' the matter or is unnecessary, so I open this topic without high expectations of my views being seen as important!

 

Nevertheless, it struck me that "The First Heretic" built on important foundations in the 40k canon that helpfully 'future proofs' the mythology and game as a whole. By this I mean, protecting what is meant to be a futuristic setting from being overrun by current technological, and possible future advances especially in stem cell research etc. While many may not see this as important, as 40k could well be seen as an 'alternate' universe which already makes clear the high point of technological advancement is behind it in chronological terms i.e. the dark age of technology, what would be problematic in my view is if creatures such as Primarchs were not seen as beyond what we are capable of and thus potentially lose their fantasy element, along with the Astartes. Along with the kind of extra-solar travel that may occur.

 

For me, the notion of the warp is the major helpful differentiation with reality that allows 40k to be set apart from potential futures in our own reality. Debski-Bowden, in the scene with Argel Tal and the demon's vision (trying not to give too much away), makes what for me is a vital link to my favourite part of the 40k univerise and protects it from current notions of genetic manipulation. By weaving some element of sorcery, the warp and fantasy in to the Primarchs and thus all of their sons puts 30/40k out of reach not just in terms of the possible technological advancement we may make in, say, the next 200 years, but sets it apart categorically from 'us'. For me this is important in my enjoyment of the game by securing it as something 'seperate' in the same way that Fantasy Warhammer is.

 

Had this been a concern for others previously also? I'm curious, despite previous negative responses as I've said, it seemed to me the most pressing difficulty for the 'brand' of 40k. Or is this just the warped (pun intended) place a philosophy degree gets one to!?

[BearersOfSalvation]

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that the first heretic did this - the old (late 80s to early 90s) Heresy fluff had the primarchs with powers clearly outside of modern biological engineering, of course you had Magnus and his powers, you also had Sanguinus flying and breaking a daemon over his knee, and several instances of primarchs surviving anti-tank-strength hits. The new Heresy novels change and add a number of details from the old fluff, but the basics have been in 40k for a loooooong time.

[Astalon]

I suppose I mean a clear link was given, whereas previously some Primarchs have warp affected physiologies but it isn't made clear that without these they wouldn't be as tough etc. In the example of surviving anti-tank strength hits; it was never made obvious that someone like Dorn, who had no obvious mutations, survives for reasons which are in principal beyond the scope of possible technological advances. The key to my thinking being 'in principal' because this is what allows us to concretely establish 40k as a setting unobtainable to the linear progression of our society/universe.

 

I agree on the psychic abilities you attribute to Magnus, as I mentioned this stems somewhat from the notion of the warp which fundamentally differs 40k from our understanding of physics.

[shatter]

I thought it was always clear the Primarchs were arcane warp channeling engines of destruction. Mind you, I read 2000AD and they smacked of Sláine.

[Astalon]

Edit: double post

[Astalon]

I thought it was always clear the Primarchs were arcane warp channeling engines of destruction. Mind you, I read 2000AD and they smacked of Sláine.

 

 

If so, I was sure being a numbskull and missing it. I thought it was clear that some of the Primarchs had been affected by the warp in transit, not built in to their very nature from the beginning by the Emperor himself. I thought ADB made this clearer and raised the possibility that the primarch's sons i.e. the Astartes, also carry the legacy of these abilities which are not solely the result of genetic engineering within the scope of the the usual biological and physical laws.

[shatter]

My opinion was formed before the HH publications.

I see your points and perspective. I'll add that while the Primarchs were released/taken by a warp agency and exposed to corruption and/or augmented by the event, we don't know how He made them to start with. I think He made them for the trip and therefore shaped them accordingly. (As I believe, right or wrongly, that everything was His plan.)

Regardless, when their blood is up, they are often described as glowing. Even when not in the heat of battle frenzy, they have a certain radiance or glammour(sp?) that's undeniable, noted psycher or otherwise.... and He accepted them thus.

As for the astartes themselves, I completely agree with you. I think the geneseeds create a tiny shadow of their primarch's (and therefore His) identity within each and every one and this could result in sensitivity to or feedback with warp empowered forces specific enough to match them. Some more so than others which is inline with the Golden Throne plan.

[Pacific81]

I thought it was always clear the Primarchs were arcane warp channeling engines of destruction. Mind you, I read 2000AD and they smacked of Sláine.

 

 

If so, I was sure being a numbskull and missing it. I thought it was clear that some of the Primarchs had been affected by the warp in transit, not built in to their very nature from the beginning by the Emperor himself. I thought ADB made this clearer and raised the possibility that the primarch's sons i.e. the Astartes, also carry the legacy of these abilities which are not solely the result of genetic engineering within the scope of the the usual biological and physical laws.

 

Its hinted at that the Primarchs were made by the Emp dabbling with warp energies - how else could something be 'mundane', held to the laws of physics as we understand them, yet have the un-definable property of making instantly want to drop to their knees in their presence or unable to hold eye contact without feinting - be able to absorb hits that would destroy battle tanks and break the spines of greater daemons over their knees?

 

But really I think the central premise of your OP has little chance of coming to pass in any event (although it makes a very interesting discussion!) The events of 40k are so far removed from our own science (at least for the most part) that really it is more akin to science fantasy than science fiction. I suppose you could argue that it will become increasingly inaccurate when compared to real life scientific progress - remember that 40k itself altered the concept of a marine after genetic engineering entered the public consciousness (marines were originally 'chemically-hardened'), and if we now have a far more defined universe stamped down in dozens of books the authors are far less able to adapt that fantasy world to real-life developments.

 

I thought it was always clear the Primarchs were arcane warp channeling engines of destruction. Mind you, I read 2000AD and they smacked of Sláine.

 

Most of the original writers of 40k were big fans of 2000AD. It's evident throughout the original background writing, and certainly in the sense of humour presented. Dan Abnett has done a fair amount of writing for Judge Dredd and other 2000AD comics, and I'm pretty sure a couple of the other current BL writers have been involved with the comic as well. I've always pictured the Primarchs fighting as being something like Slaine's warp-spasm, but without the massive physical disfigurement :)

[increaso]

Had this been a concern for others previously also? I'm curious, despite previous negative responses as I've said, it seemed to me the most pressing difficulty for the 'brand' of 40k. Or is this just the warped (pun intended) place a philosophy degree gets one to!?

 

I did write something longer, but deleted it because it was a bit of a ramble.

 

I have no concern that the advancement of real technology would somehow damage the 40k universe. The whole chaos gods, psykers, warp travel, etc separates the 40k world from ours enough that I don't personally feel that I will some how lose enjoyment or suffer an aneursym if scientists created super soldiers, for example. I might show some concern if some guy starts declaring himself the Emperor and demands an oath of servitude, but i'm sure he will be encouraged to drink less and go back to sleep.

 

I do feel that there are many other IP 'universes' that suffer more so from the elapse of time or the advancement of human though/ technology.

 

And I do suspect a philosophy degree may encourage over thinking.

[Pacific81]

I do feel that there are many other IP 'universes' that suffer more so from the elapse of time or the advancement of human though/ technology.

 

Indeed; 2001, Space 1999 and Blade Runner (which is set less than 10 years in the future! Not long to get those off-world colonies going, and the robotics need a bit of work..) just a few which spring immediately to mind :P

[shatter]

Space 1999... my god, I've not thought of that show in years. Made, what 10 years after the first moon landing? Probably seemed quite a reasonable time frame at it's inception. Pity there's no money on the moon, eh?

 

I was so hot for the shapechanger. Miya?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Thankfully, most of whatever advances in technology we could muster between now and M41 can be explained away by the disasters of the time prior to the Imperium erasing them from existence. It's how I sleep comfortably at night knowing a modern main battle tank could vaporize entire IG armor companies without effort.

[Astalon]

Sorry, looks like I missed a few of these responses so will try to address the many interesting points from my perspective!

 

You're right to bring up things like psychers and the warp, I tried to elucidate my opinion in the Op that I felt the warp was one of the saving graces of 40k compared to many other sci fi settings, and it really stamped the setting in a science fantasy setting, and was probably the single most interesting aspect of the setting.

 

The dark age of technology is a useful device to 'chuck' all of the further advances in to and ridding 40k of those elements. Also, I should make it clear that the sheer size and scale of some elements of 40k I don't think are attainable, the size of their space and warp going craft for example, and the sheer number of Imperial worlds. Its the less macro developments that worry me, not a specific instance of super soldiers being real etc; but, a wider sense of 40k being made irrelevant because of a huge thematic digression from how the world actually develops, if that makes sense. I mean in the same way that if we look at sci fi from the 19th century, we don't say "oh look we have a lot better technology now", its the idea that their idea of the future was so mistakes and trapped in the paradigm of mechanical technology (in the case of the 19th century) i.e. machines would just get bigger and more complex versions of machines they already had, huge steam and cog driven contraptions etc.

 

So, things like the new stormraven with what looks like air fed jet engines just seem silly. Whereas Astartes back packs, which house a small fusion reactor to provide limitless and abundant power to the suit, are an example of something on the edge of technological possibility which may or may not be possible and stamp 40k purely in the science fantasy category.

 

(Terrible structure to my posts I'm afraid, and grammar)

[shatter]

...Aircraft carriers are massive... and they're 'powered' by a steam engine. Sure, the fuel energy has changed from carbon oxidation to an exothermic nuclear reaction, and electricity is delivering energy for locomotion, yet there's still steam pushing metal in them. *chuckle*

 

I think the size of stuff in 40k is pretty small. Surprisingly so. Well, I'm surprised.

 

Population growth on earth is a good indicator I think and we're presently burdened with many minimums: Water, living space, shelter, food production technology, pollution etc. Yet we're still doubling every so many years.

Stick that in space and you'll get habitats that balloon beyond belief as there's no reachable limit to space, materiel and energy.