Prokrustes Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Well..skimming once more through our codex I seriously have to ask myself, what makes us special? What keeps you going with your chaos army? Those few things that seem to be different from the loyalists (possessed,ld,spawn) do suck. Those things we share are either equal or worse than the loyalists. So I have been wondering what are we supposed to be good in? I hope it isnt cc because I guess thats what the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templars are supposed to be really good at. I suppose it isnt shooting, because thats what the normal SM and the Dark Angels seem to be good at. Nowadays that we havent got any cultist and demons got their own codex (where spawn and possessed might be even more fitting), I wonder what is left for us? Undivided chaos abhoring legions? evil unloved not that chaosy space pirates?even in the fluff it seems that we are turning more and more into tragic spiky marines. So what do you think is our niche? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Well..skimming once more through our codex I seriously have to ask myself, what makes us special? What keeps you going with your chaos army?Those few things that seem to be different from the loyalists (possessed,ld,spawn) do suck. Those things we share are either equal or worse than the loyalists. So I have been wondering what are we supposed to be good in? I hope it isnt cc because I guess thats what the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templars are supposed to be really good at. I suppose it isnt shooting, because thats what the normal SM and the Dark Angels seem to be good at. Nowadays that we havent got any cultist and demons got their own codex (where spawn and possessed might be even more fitting), I wonder what is left for us? Undivided chaos abhoring legions? evil unloved not that chaosy space pirates?even in the fluff it seems that we are turning more and more into tragic spiky marines. So what do you think is our niche? Dark Angels & Normal space marines are Jacks of all trades aces of none... BTs & BAs are generally assault armies but BAs can do a jack of all trades list... SWs are a CQC army :lol: I guess cult troops, oblits & Dps are what make us stand out :D although some of the other units are ok as well... a standard CSm squad is pretty tough... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2544769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Basically what they did was they turned us from small elite forces of CSM into large masses of cheap troops. Our basic troops are cheaper than theirs although other things are more expensive. The only thing that keeps me going with my chaos is the fluff. If they didn't have much fluff on them like the Tau (don't hate I'm just using this as an example because there aren't many books on them) then in my opinion there would be no point in playing them.....at least with our current "codex". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2544783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 For me it was allways the theme, never the rules of a particular unit. And I have now seen four iterations of rules for them, so I better not make it dependant on that. It's the evil daemonic power armoured warriors from a hell dimension who are armed with chainsaws that still fascinates me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2544791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Well..skimming once more through our codex I seriously have to ask myself, what makes us special? in a good way ? I dont know ... spikes maybe ? but jokes aside there are better and more flexible dex short range armies or assault armies . For some of the legions or build doing counts as of loyalist dex was better then the chaos dex. But I can imagine that if someone played BL , the new dex [i think I will call the gav dex new for ever] aint that bad. boring maybe , but not bad [where bad = necron dex]. What keeps you going with your chaos army? no one will start a chaos army now , so selling it doesnt make much sense[+a lot of the stuff I use is NM which again no one would want] and considering the models are all table top quality save for a few my wife did , the price would be rather low even if I did find someone who would want to buy it . Our basic troops are cheaper than theirs although other things are more expensive. check how much a better geared GH squad costs . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2544792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Our basic troops are cheaper than theirs although other things are more expensive. check how much a better geared GH squad costs . I was just stating about the only good thing about our current dex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2544814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Well..skimming once more through our codex I seriously have to ask myself, what makes us special? What keeps you going with your chaos army? The standard list: Deamon Princes, combination of Plague Marines and Berzerkers, Obliterators. I still like this list more than any other list I can make with other Marine list. It just works and has an unique combination of units. No other codex can field 2 Flying Monstrous Creatures as HQ choices, costing 130 each. Although a Blood Angel Priest makes an assault squad look like a combination of Plague Marines and Berzerkers; Berzerkers and Plague Marines are both better in their dedicated role. No codex has something close to Obliterators. Really not even close. The funny thing is, apart from being an unique list, its still awesomely strong too :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2544828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeller Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Defilers, obliterators, and 20-man squad sizes are about the only thing interesting me in the C:CSM at the moment. That and I have an army I rarely use. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2544862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissah Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 For me it is the fluff and the units stated by Zhukov. I play Sons of Horus and U really love the Horus Heresy series so that is what keeps me going. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2544875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Reaper Autocannons and Havoc Missile Launchers. Two great fluffy weapons that never seem to find a place in my army but I'm trying! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2544901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Reaper Autocannons and Havoc Missile Launchers. Two great fluffy weapons that never seem to find a place in my army but I'm trying! I recently used a Havoc Launcher on my D.Poss Land Raider. BS3 doesn't really hurt it too badly, and you can put some pretty big holes in Guard, Orks and 'Nids. Turns your Jack-of-all-trades Raider into an Anti-Infantry Tank. As for Reapers, 2x ML and 2x Reapers in Havoc squads tend to put holes in light armour as well as hurting infantry. With the new Dark Eldar book, I might give these guys some serious thought, seeing as how my Oblits two Lascannons are going to be nerfed by the "Darkness-field-thing" on their transports. I may as well take 5/6 shots at their origami-pirate-boats, because I'm only going to need need a low Strength to Pen. [Edit] Punctuation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2544920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 What's surprising is that I play Word Bearers, right? And I don't use ANY god specific units... and I win games. I don't know how. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2545059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 What's surprising is that I play Word Bearers, right? And I don't use ANY god specific units... and I win games. I don't know how. Not really. Your average CSM can stand up to his BA, SW, BT or SM brothers with ease, and can even go toe-to-toe with some of their specialist assault troops and come out smiling. It's their low points and default CCW, Bolt Pistol and Bolter that makes them king, not to mention their base leadership of 9 and their ability to use two specials. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2545111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Although a Blood Angel Priest makes an assault squad look like a combination of Plague Marines and Berzerkers; Berzerkers and Plague Marines are both better in their dedicated role. Not to derail the thread but I've long been of the mind that PMs/CSMs/Berserkers would be more competitive then just PMs/Berserkers because it puts more bodies on the table without losing effectiveness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2545118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shadowlord Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Nothing has really kept my chaos army going, nor has anything kept my Tau going (but that's another thread for another day on another forum). My chaos list hasn't really changed much over the 3+ years i've been using them. Tzeentch DP, wings, BoC/GoC and Warptime as HQ, two squads of berzerkers in rhinos with PF skull champs as troops and everything else built around a general foundation that costs 770+ points. The only reason why I don't change my list is because it's effective, and there are few choices I can make that retain the effectiveness. Possessed, spawn, dreadnoughts, 3 choices (two elites) that are avaliable but are not great for their cost; the dreadnought's rule is quite fluffy (which is surprising when I look at the codex as a whole, but oh well) but it means that by taking this costly elites choice, we run the risk of shooting ourselves in the foot not once per game, but every turn. No codex should have choices like that; if you spent money on a robot that went berserk and tried to kill you everytime you turned it on, you'd take it back to where you got it and ask for a refund. I'll stop there as I run the risk of blowing this into a full rant, but the only reason I play chaos is because my list is effective and just so happens to include my favourite units from the codex, Berzerkers and the Daemon Prince; if they weren't as effective as they are (DP is bordering on that, as mine has yet to survive past turn 2-3 due to the amount on punishment it can't take, even with T5 and a 3+/4++) then I think I would've sold my stuff a while ago and i'd be playing something else, like Eldar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2545127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Humongous Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 Reaper Autocannons and Havoc Missile Launchers. Two great fluffy weapons that never seem to find a place in my army but I'm trying! I run Havocs on all my rhinos. If you use Lash to clump targets up, they can be quite deadly. Pretty much the cheapest blasts you can get, very effective against (say) guard who are in cover. More effective the a plasma cannon, for example, because the Havoc is twin linked so hits dead on more often. If you don't Lash the targets, its only so-so, but still worth the price, being handy for softening units up. Very good range for the price, too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2545303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Overlord Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 Awesomeness of the models, and awesomeness of the fluff (which is in very short supply in the Codex: Chaos Renegades). And a dislike of GW's bad treatment of Chaos but "you're my favourite" treatment of SM's, which strangely makes me want to play Chaos more and SM's less (I don't like jumping on the SM bandwagon) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2545461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 nor has anything kept my Tau going (but that's another thread for another day on another forum). Preaching to the Choir here. By the Throne do we need a new 'dex... I look at all our "ignores target priority" wargear and weep... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2545529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 Reaper Autocannons and Havoc Missile Launchers. Two great fluffy weapons that never seem to find a place in my army but I'm trying! I tried to make a 'top' list with both of these in it after I read this. I think I succeeded more or less. (this is still on-topic right, as it shows of a more special list Chaos can field!) Here is the 1700 points version: Deamon Prince 130 3 Termies; 2x combimelta, 1x Reaper 125 3 Termies; 2x combimelta, 1x Reaper 125 5 Plague Marines; 2x Plasma + rhino w/ Havoc Launcher 195 5 Plague Marines; 2x Melta + rhino w/ Havoc Launcher 185 8 Berzerkers; Powerfist + rhino 243 8 Berzerkers; Powerfist + rhino 243 2 Obliterators 150 2 Obliterators 150 2 Obliterators 150 For 1850 points: Winged Deamon Prince. 130 Either 2x MoK or 2x Combiweapons 20 For 2000 points: Winged Deamon Prince 130 5 Plague marines; 1 flamer + rhino w/ Havoc 170 For 2250 points: Winged Deamon Prince 130 5 Plague marines; 2 flamer + rhino w/ Havoc 175 8 Berzerkers; Powerfist + rhino 243 For 2500 points: Winged Deamon Prince 130 5 Plague marines; 2 flamer + rhino w/ Havoc 175 8 Berzerkers; Powerfist + rhino 243 4 Termies; Reaper + 3 combi meltas 160 1 Termie with combimelta to the other 2 termie squads 70 20 points left. Maybe save 10 points somewhere and a powerfist to each termie squad. So there you go, lists from 1700 up to 2500 seem to be pretty competative with Reapers and Havocs in it :P Not to derail the thread but I've long been of the mind that PMs/CSMs/Berserkers would be more competitive then just PMs/Berserkers because it puts more bodies on the table without losing effectiveness. This is not fair haha, if I react to this then it would derail the thread probably. So I'll just say that I disagree Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2545658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 Termicide with C-Melta and RAC? Interesting, were you thinking of treating them the same as normal Termicide? I had thought about 2 naked Terminators and a RAC one that would hang out with Oblits in the backfield or walk alongside my Rhinos providing some tank busting at range. Basically a crappier version of the Rifleman Dreadnought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2545713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 then its better to buy 5 NM with a blast master , template and same rate of fire , but more ablative wounds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2545738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 then its better to buy 5 NM with a blast master , template and same rate of fire , but more ablative wounds. But a worse save, worse in combat and a Blast Master is nowhere as good as the Reaper against Transports. Which is the main reason one might want to take the Reaper: more Long range Anti transports. Termicide with C-Melta and RAC? Interesting, were you thinking of treating them the same as normal Termicide? Possibly. Thats why I favour this type of 'termicide' over regular Termicide: It has more options. Normal termicide can only do 1 thing: deepstrike and hopefully shooting at something worthwhile. With a Reaper it might be a good idea to just deploy them for more long range fire along on top of your Oblits, while they keep the ability to function as Termicide when thats needed. They are arguably just as good or better at their termicide role too: 2 TL-Autocanons is still alright against a lot of vehicles and it makes your squad able to do something after they fired their combies (might they survive). In short: Main use is extra TL-autocannons on the field, while the 10 extra points spend on combies means they can still fulfill the 'termicide' role when needed. (who came up with the term termicide I'm wondering?) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2545774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 For me it was allways the theme, never the rules of a particular unit. And I have now seen four iterations of rules for them, so I better not make it dependant on that. It's the evil daemonic power armoured warriors from a hell dimension who are armed with chainsaws that still fascinates me. This. There's a lot more you can do with a regular SM army, but to me it's the fluff and the cult troops. Khorne Berzerkers are more than just "Assault Marines". To me the game is more than just moving models around a table and rolling dice, and doing it better than the guy across from me. I enjoy the story of what's happening on the table. And the spikes, the skulls, the chains and all the other crazy stuff. And Defilers. And Daemons. And my eternal, burning hatred for the Imperium of Man. The current Chaos Marines Codex might not be as gloriously special as previous versions (I wouldn't know, I started with this one), but the Chaos Marines are still the baddest folks in the Galaxy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2545830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 But a worse save, worse in combat and a Blast Master is nowhere as good as the Reaper against Transports. Which is the main reason one might want to take the Reaper: more Long range Anti transports. you know am not a math dude , but from expiriance I think that 3 guys with+2 save hanging at the back[so just like NM] have a bigger chance of losing the reaper then 5 NM. At least that is how I feel . I played with 4 man termicid with plas against meq[good against rhino 6 str 7 from plas and 2str 7 twin linked from reaper on landing] , but in the end I didnt like the build[or rather it worked better with oblits , even if it was less fluffy for AL ] . The current Chaos Marines Codex might not be as gloriously special as previous versions (I wouldn't know, I started with this one), but the Chaos Marines are still the baddest folks in the Galaxy. not even in our own fluff are we bad ass. specialy when considering what "heroes" in later dex did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2545907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 But a worse save, worse in combat and a Blast Master is nowhere as good as the Reaper against Transports. Which is the main reason one might want to take the Reaper: more Long range Anti transports. you know am not a math dude , but from expiriance I think that 3 guys with+2 save hanging at the back[so just like NM] have a bigger chance of losing the reaper then 5 NM. At least that is how I feel . Well I didnt mean that 3 Terminators are always more survivable either, it really depends on what weapons are firing at them. Therefore its of no use for me to do math either here. (wound allocation is the most important factor here). Its about even in general I think. Both different weapons though, with different targets where they are effective against. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213851-what-makes-us-special-again/#findComment-2545927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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